2006 Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

[Bored 0]

This is a year with no locks. Starting to feel old as several first timers I saw their entire career.

 

Holdovers

Bert Blyleven

Dave Concepcion

Andre Dawson

Steve Garvey

Goose Gossage

Tommy John

Dave Mattingly

Willie McGee

Jack Morris

Dale Murphy

Dave Parker

Jim Rice

Lee Smith

Bruce Sutter

Alan Trammell

 

First Timers

Rick Aguilera

Albert Belle

Will Clark

Gary DiSarcina

Alex Fernandez

Gary Gaetti

Dwight Gooden

Ozzie Guillen

Orel Hershiser

Gregg Jefferies

Doug Jones

Hal Morris

Walt Weiss

John Wetteland

[Failed Bridge 0]

I'd vote for Bert Blyleven, Orel Hershiser and Jim Rice. Blyleven and Rick should already be in the Hall as far as I'm concerned, but I think I've said that many times before on here.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Blyleven, Dawson, Gossage and Trammell would receive my votes. Sutter pehaps, but I'd like to go one closer at a time. I waver on Dale Murphy and could get talked into him.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Blyleven

Dawson

Gossage

Sutter (likely to get in this year...only 43 votes shy)

 

I think Bruce Sutter gets in, and possibly one of the negro league players. I'd guess Buck O'Neill. I see the likes of Dawson, Gossage, Blyleven making a nice jump in their vote totals.

[TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe 0]

Mattingly.

[Guest]

Dawson, Blyleven and Dale Murphy. I'd put Hershiser in too, but he's not worthy of first ballot consideration.

[LooseCannon25 0]

I'm a big Mets fan but even i don't think Gooden deserves to be in. He was dominating for 5-6 years, but that's it. If he gets in then Mattingly should get in too

[CanadianChris 0]

Blyleven, Dawson, Gossage and Trammell would receive my votes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You stole my thunder, Al.

 

If Goose doesn't get in this year, I doubt he'll ever get in, which would make me quite angry.

[Bored 0]

Bruce Sutter is the best bet to get in and I won't be surprised if he's only one to get in this year and it'll be a damn shame when it happens.

 

Career Win Shares

 

1. Andre Dawson 340

2. Bert Blyleven 339

3. Will Clark 331

4. Dave Parker 327

5. Alan Trammell 318

6. Dale Murphy 294

7. Tommy John 289

8. Jim Rice 282

9. Steve Garvey 279

10. Dave Concepcion 269

11. Don Mattingly 263

12. Gary Gaetti 249

13. Albert Belle 243

14. Jack Morris 225

15. Willie McGee 224

16. Goose Gossage 223

17. Orel Hershiser 210

18. Lee Smith 198

19. Dwight Gooden 187

20. Bruce Sutter 168

21. Gregg Jefferies 162

22. Ozzie Guillen 148

23. Rick Aguilera 147

24. Doug Jones 146

25. John Wetteland 127

26. Walt Weiss 123

27. Alex Fernandez 110

28. Hal Morris 104

29. Gary DiSarcina 65

 

Wow, it's easy to forget how good Will Clark was and he probably will deserve more consideration than he'll get. I'll Al let figure out if DiSarcina is the worst HOF candidate ever. I know you are automatically eligible with 10 years service time but damn got to have some standards.

[Vern Gagne 0]

That's an example of win shares being overrated. You can't believe that the likes of Gaetti, McGee, Hersheisher are better than Sutter, or Gossage. Who isn't very high on the list.

[CanadianChris 0]

I don't think they're overrated in general, but I also think you can't blindly apply them to relievers. Hell, Mariano Rivera has fewer than 200, and he's considered nearly a lock for the HoF.

[LooseCannon25 0]

What the fuck is Greg Jefferies doing on the ballot? Is that a joke or what?

[CanadianChris 0]

Players aren't nominated. Anyone who meets these criteria is eligible to be on the ballot (from the Hall of Fame website):

 

3. Eligible Candidates — Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:

 

  1. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.

  2. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).

  3. Player shall have ceased to be an active player in the Major Leagues at least five (5) calendar years preceding the election but may be otherwise connected with baseball.

  4. In case of the death of an active player or a player who has been retired for less than five (5) full years, a candidate who is otherwise eligible shall be eligible in the next regular election held at least six (6) months after the date of death or after the end of the five (5) year period, whichever occurs first.

  5. Any player on Baseball's ineligible list shall not be an eligible candidate.

[Bored 0]

Everyday players are much more valuable than relievers is why. The just don't pitch enough plain and simple. That's not to say I'd put Gary Gaetti in the HOF over Gossage but I'm personally not sold on relievers belonging in the HOF. Gossage is more deserving than any of them and I'd have no issue if he got in.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I think Bruce Sutter gets in, and possibly one of the negro league players. I'd guess Buck O'Neill. I see the likes of Dawson, Gossage, Blyleven making a nice jump in their vote totals.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would be surprised if we don't see several negro league players inducted. Possibly a dozen.

 

Wow, it's easy to forget how good Will Clark was and he probably will deserve more consideration than he'll get. I'll Al let figure out if DiSarcina is the worst HOF candidate ever. I know you are automatically eligible with 10 years service time but damn got to have some standards.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Let's draw a distinction between worst Hall of Fame candidate, and worst player to draw a vote. My pick is Hal Lanier, for racking up just 60 win shares while playing almost 1200 career games.

 

That's an example of win shares being overrated. You can't believe that the likes of Gaetti, McGee, Hersheisher are better than Sutter, or Gossage. Who isn't very high on the list.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a good argument that closers aren't as valuable as other players. In this case, I think you first have to make the decision whether relievers deserve the Hall, and then you need to rate them solely among relievers.

[Vern Gagne 0]

I should of said win shares is kind of an unfair indicatator of a closers success.

 

As for being in the HOF? I say yes. They have to be dominate. Like Rivera's been. But, I'd have no problem voting for a closer.

 

You can't elect too many Negro league canidates in the first year. Two or three would be a nice start. Don't make up for past mistakes, in just a few years. You've got to spread it out over the upcoming years.

[Guest Leelee]

Someone explain to me what win shares are.

 

And I think Joey Belle deserves to get in, eventually.

[phoenixrising 0]

I think Gary DiSarcina, Walt Weiss and Rick Aguilera are fully deserving of election.

 

I'm joking.

 

If I was voting - I'd pick Blyleven, Dawson and Gossage. However I'm pretty sure Sutter will go in before Gossage because he was so close last year. Of the first timers...wow. Not a whole lot there. Actually I think Belle and Clark have very credible Hall of Fame cases and I'd love to see how they fare on the Keltner List - I think they would do pretty well. Gooden would have been a Hall of Famer had he not met drugs. Hershiser, Wetteland and Gaetti are members of the Hall of Very Good.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Gooden would have been a Hall of Famer had he not met drugs.

 

Like a local radio show says. "We don't know that"

 

A dead arm may have hurt Gooden more than off the field issues. Not to say the drugs didn't affect him. It's ignoring that he was overworked at a young age.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I should of said win shares is kind of an unfair indicatator of a closers success.

 

As for being in the HOF? I say yes. They have to be dominate. Like Rivera's been. But, I'd have no problem voting for a closer.

 

You can't elect too many Negro league canidates in the first year. Two or three would be a nice start. Don't make up for past mistakes, in just a few years. You've got to spread it out over the upcoming years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe this year's special election is a once and done deal. I don't think there is a point to spreading it out because Buck O'Neill is almost certainly the only remaining living player. No one is even around who can say they saw some of them play.

 

Someone explain to me what win shares are.

 

And I think Joey Belle deserves to get in, eventually.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Win Shares are a Bill James creation that attempts to place all of a player's accomplishments into a single statistic. The gimmick of win shares is that it starts with a team's statistics (and win total) and works backwards. It's not perfect, but it is better than any system I've seen at measuring fielding performance. A full explanation literally requires a book.

 

Someone suggested running a Keltner List on Albert Belle, and I'll do that.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The duel Keltner list for Albert Belle and Will Clark...

 

1. Was he ever regarded as the best player in baseball? Did anybody, while he was active, ever suggest that he was the best player in baseball?

 

Belle was not the best player in the game, although he was one of the top five or ten in his prime. Bill James' system rates Will Clark as the best player in baseball in 1988-89. Clark's value is hidden because he played in a tough hitters' park, and it is hidden in little statistics. In 1988-89, he stole 17 bases, was caught 4 times, and grounded into 15 double plays over two full seasons.

 

2. Was he the best player on his team?

 

Yes in both cases. Belle was the best player on an Indians team that won 100 games in a 144 game season. He was the best player on his team every year from 1994-99, except for '97 when he loses out to Frank Thomas. Will Clark was the best player on the San Francisco Giants from 1987-92. That club won two division titles and an NL pennant.

 

3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?

 

Clark was certainly the best first baseman in the league in his prime. Belle is a less solid candidate. Belle was probably the best left fielder in the league in his prime.

 

4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?

 

As mentioned, Belle was the best player on the Cleveland Indian teams that demolished their competition in 1995-96. Clark's teams reached the postseason often. Twice with the SF Giants and twice with the Texas Rangers. Will Clark was also involved in one of the best deadline deals in baseball history. Acquired by the Cardinals to replace the injured Mark McGwire, Clark hit .345 with 12 home runs in 51 games.

 

5. Was he good enough that he could play regularly after passing his prime?

 

Clark was good enough to play and regularly produced solid numbers, but retired at the age of 36 before his skills eroded. His season OPS+ the last four years were 128, 126, 124 and 145. Belle however retired at the age of 34 due to an arthritic hip condition.

 

6. Is he the very best baseball player in history who is not in the Hall of Fame?

 

No. I think Bert Blyleven and Ron Santo share that honor.

 

7. Are most players who have comparable statistics in the Hall of Fame?

 

Belle's list is filled with recent players. Of his three eligible comps, one is in. No player with Clark's statistics is in the Hall.

 

8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?

 

No. When all is said, Clark only hit 284 career home runs, along with 2176 hits. Belle collected 381 home runs and 1,726 hits. Belle's adjusted OPS is 60th all time, Clark's is 88th. For largely offensive players with short careers, that is probably not going to cut it.

 

9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?

 

Certainly. Both players perform well when you break down smaller statistics. Clark was a .333 hitter in 31 career postseason games.

 

10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame?

 

Clark would have to compete with Keith Hernandez, Dick Allen and Don Mattingly. Belle loses out to Minnie Minoso.

 

11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?

 

Clark never won an MVP but deserved it twice. Belle probably deserved an MVP in 1998 but never won one.

 

12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the players who played in this many All-Star games go into the Hall of Fame?

 

Five All Star games for Belle, six for Clark.

 

13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?

 

Absolutely.

 

14. What impact did the player have on baseball history? Was he responsible for any rule changes? Did he introduce any new equipment? Did he change the game in any way?

 

None apparent.

 

15. Did the player uphold the standards of sportsmanship and character that the Hall of Fame, in its written guidelines, instructs us to consider?

 

This is where Belle loses points. He holds a reputation as one of the biggest horse's asses in baseball.

 

When you take the last point into account, Belle's candidacy is suspect. Will Clark's case is stronger than many people may imagine, when you really study the issue.

[C Dubya 04 0]

Al, how much does an incident like the corked bat and subsequent stealing of it hurt a player like Belle's chances? I actually would not have put him in before that is considered, but if someone was close on his vote, I could see it swinging it.

 

How about Steve Garvey? Am I the only one who remembers how good he was?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Al, how much does an incident like the corked bat and subsequent stealing of it hurt a player like Belle's chances? I actually would not have put him in before that is considered, but if someone was close on his vote, I could see it swinging it.

 

Very little. Graig Nettles, Babe Ruth, Pete Rose corked bats. Gaylord Perry and others doctored baseballs. It rarely comes up when discussing talent.

 

How about Steve Garvey? Am I the only one who remembers how good he was?

 

Garvey was a guy who was consistantly good for a long amount of time. His career statistics come up short though, and it's hard to stump for his election without making a case for many similar players who also missed out.

[Vern Gagne 0]

I believe this year's special election is a once and done deal. I don't think there is a point to spreading it out because Buck O'Neill is almost certainly the only remaining living player. No one is even around who can say they saw some of them play.

 

Didn't know that.

 

About Clark winning the MVP. Do you think if the sabermetric numbers where more of a focal point back than, that Clark would of won an MVP?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

About Clark winning the MVP. Do you think if the sabermetric numbers where more of a focal point back than, that Clark would of won an MVP?

 

I doubt it. The 1988 race was very close, and it's not entirely clear that Clark was the very best in the league. The 1989 award went to Kevin Mitchell, who hit 47 home runs in a fluke season. You really have to dig into the stats to push Clark ahead of Mitchell.

[Guest Leelee]

Vern, stop using Marney's thesaurus.

[phoenixrising 0]

Thanks for the lists, Al.

[Bored 0]

I thought about doing a Keltner List for Gary DiSarcina as a joke but I'll just post his profile from the HOF website:

1st year on the ballot…Played 12 seasons…Finished in the top 20 in AL MVP voting in 1995 (19th)…One All-Star team (1995); no hits in one ASG at-bat…Led AL shortstops in double plays once (1998)…Led AL shortstops in total chances twice (1992, 1994)…Finished in the top 10 in sacrifice hits five times (1994, 1996-99)…Played entire major league career with Angels; in the top 10 on the club’s list of career leaders for games, at-bats and doubles.

Top 10 in sacrafice hits five times!

 

Interesting as I was looking through the website they hadn't update the future candidate list and still showed those who would be eligible for candidacy this year. Here were the names who were left off who were eligible and their career win shares:

 

Tim Belcher 132

Juan Guzman 92

Lance Johnson 155

Roberto Kelly 137

Mickey Morandini 119

Jaime Navarro 80

Luis Polonia 124

Mike Stanley 145

Mark Whiten 84

 

I want meet the guys who let DiSarcina through on their screening process.

[Guest Monty Burns]

What the fuck is Greg Jefferies doing on the ballot? Is that a joke or what?

 

Yeah, same with DiSarcina and Weiss....makes no sense. Trammell should be on there considering the demanding position he played, with the same team for 20 years no less. A lot of people think Jack Morris isn't getting in because he treated the media like crap during his playing days (he even admitted this last year).

[CanadianChris 0]

There IS no screening process. If you played ten seasons, you're on the ballot.