Thoughts on the Following Fighters

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Mark Coleman

Frank Shamrock

Dave Menne

Pat Miletich

Jens Pulver

 

Andrei Arlovski

Chuck Liddell

Rich Franklin

Matt Hughes

[Lei Tong 0]

Frank Shamrock

 

- A bit overrated in history, he shamelessly ducked a number of opponents who arguably would've fed him his lunch. Talented grappler with mediocre positioning skills and good striking. Has become rather delusional since his retirement.

 

Dave Menne

 

- Lifetime mid-level fighter. A lot of heart and determination, but not enough skill to be successful at the upper echelon of MMA.

 

Pat Miletich

 

- Formerly overrated to an extreme extent, but with the general increase of knowledge about Shooto fighters, his place in an all-time sense has been thankfully reevaluated. Undeniably great coach, though.

 

Jens Pulver

 

- Formerly a great LW who greatly utilized sprawl & brawl tactics, his ability to score knockouts suffered both as time passed on and the level of his opponents increased. Eventually became an also-ran at the weight, and dropped down to FW where he instantly established himself as a legit Top 5 level fighter. However, PRIDE's money brought him needlessly back to LW (now against guys operating under a 160lbs. limit), and has quickly gone back to struggling.

 

 

I'll do more later.

[starvenger 0]

Mark Coleman - Very impressed that he went from also-ran to Pride Grand Prix champion. IIRC, he was one of the early virtuosos of GnP.

 

Frank Shamrock - I'd love to see how he'd stand up to todays MMA fighters.

 

Pat Miletich - Is he retired? If so, then he made a smart career move. I never really saw Militech himself as a great fighter, but as head of Militech Fighting Systems, he elevates himself without actually having to fight.

 

Jens Pulver - I'll be honest, I haven't seen a Pulver fight yet.

 

Andrei Arlovski - ditto

 

Chuck Liddell - He's come a long way from being the guy who'd just punch the shit out of you. Nice to see him as champ.

 

Rich Franklin - I think that Ace has a chance to dominate the UFC Middleweight division for a while. Of course, it'd help if the UFC could find some challengers that a) aren't boring, and b) don't fail drug tests. But luckily TUF 1 produced some "name" fighters that the UFC can use until they find a good contender. I mean, a chance to watch Ace knock Fratboy Leben into next week? Money.

 

Matt Hughes - Freak of nature, and the champ that arguably has the toughest road ahead of him, given the contenders in his division. GSP, Karo, Sanchez, even Crybaby Diaz vs Hughes would produce some sweet matches. I would like to see Hughes-Trigg III though. You never can see enough of Twinkletoes getting choked out.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I think it's fairly safe to say that unless the entire WW division all dies in a plane crash that we won't be seeing Frank Trigg step into the octagon at the same time as Matt Hughes for a long, long time.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Rich Franklin - Very well rounded fighter, with really good striking as well as a solid ground game, though we haven't seen much of it. He has looked impressive against lesser opponents on the ground though, displaying a nice triangle on Curtis Stout. Decent wrestler but not that great, probably his weak point and how I feel he will get defeated... if he does. This term has been cheapened by its constant use, but if there is one guy who I feel qualifies to have a spartan work ethic, it is Rich Franklin. Also has the heart to go with it, as he has proven through his ability to get out of bad spots against tough fighters like Rivera and Tanner.

 

Always an exciting fighter as he has never had a match go to a decision, and has only had one loss in all of that. In a middleweight division that is waiting for a dominant fighter, as most of them have skillsets that imply that anyone can get beaten on a given day, as opposed to the dominance of the big three in the WW division, or a guy like Fedor in the HW division. Depending on Loiseau's strategy, he will be tested against a decent wrestler with vicious ground and pound, if The Crow decides to take it there. I would have liked to have seen him fight Lindland, but I'm sure that fight will happen eventually and hopefully help him build on his legacy as champ, because he is catching a lot of flak, mainly from Lindland himself for ducking him. Until he faces guys tougher than Quarry, he'll be relegated to being another champ like Tanner or Menne that just fell by the wayside.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Yeah, what's that whole Lindland situation about anyways? I was watching the bonus stuff on the 52 DVD the other day and it showed Dana at a press conference mentioning that Matt Lindland is pissed off at him and if he wins his fight (which he did) then he'll be getting a MW title shot.

[razazteca 0]

TUF coaching all stars

 

Chuck Liddell - Looks like UFC is making him the superstar of the company.

 

Rich Franklin - Never heard of him until Shamrock put him over in the Best Damn Squash Ever special.

 

Matt Hughes - UFC Unleased made him look the unstoppable demigod champion of his weightclass.

[Guest Brian]

Yeah, what's that whole Lindland situation about anyways? I was watching the bonus stuff on the 52 DVD the other day and it showed Dana at a press conference mentioning that Matt Lindland is pissed off at him and if he wins his fight (which he did) then he'll be getting a MW title shot.

 

Lindland deserves a title shot which Dana promised him (before he gave Rich the shot).

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I think he means why did Lindland get kicked out before getting the shot.

 

It seemed like bullshit, apparently at the weigh-ins he wore the t-shirt of a sponsor that the UFC doesn't like, and they kicked him out because of it. Sportsbook is apparently a UFC no-no when it comes to advertising. Conspiracy theorists might lead you to believe that this was because Dana wanted to protect Rich Franklin, who was gonna be a star on the basis of him being a coach on TUF. They might be right, but another good reason is that with the new TUF audience, Dana is trying to rid of the 'boring' fighters. I disagree, I actually like watching The Law fight, and I also think that he is always busy working for a finish, so it's not like it's his fault or something. I am also sure that he's finished like 80% of his fights.

 

In a way though, I definitely don't think he should have gotten the shot before UFC 52, and the people clamouring for it or thought that he deserved one confused me. Did we all forget his last appearance in the UFC was when David Terrell Knocked him the fuck out? This fact also makes me wonder why Terrell is behind him in the rankings, when it's only been a year since then and it was a pretty convincing win.

[Guest Amy Ace]

Mark Coleman- roid rage

 

Frank Shamrock- fight Caesar already!

 

Dave Menne- got beatdown by my boy short fuse

 

Pat Miletich- probably one of the best trainers ever, one top of his amazing career

 

Jens Pulver- hands of bricks

 

Andrei Arlovski- reminds me way too much of a loreal spokesperson

 

Chuck Liddell- eyepoking cheater, Couture will not be fooled twice!

 

Rich Franklin- the all-around man! period.

 

Matt Hughes- hard-ass, but great fighter

 

A funny note on the Lindland situation; Dana was over in England at the Cage Rage event Lindy was fighting on and Matt went up to him and said "Dana, you came all the way over here to watch me fight?!" BTW- Matt's a cool dude in real life, despite his hard-ass persona most wresters have. I went to a Team Quest camp and he was super nice.

Edited December 16, 2005 by Amy Ace

[Lei Tong 0]

Pat Miletich- probably one of the best trainers ever, one top of his amazing career

 

 

*eye twitch*

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Mark Coleman - freakishly dominant at one point in MMA history, hugely influencial by establishing Ground and Pound as an effective way to win. I think a problem with him is that he never went outside his comfort zones, never trained beyond his wrestling. And if he did, he never showed it. I love how he makes excuses, even though he'll say "I don't want to make excuses..."

 

 

Frank Shamrock - before his time in the UFC. He had good-great submissions, slams, striking, and strategy. Along with Mo Smith and TK, imo, they formed what would be the standard for cross-training. His fights against Lober, Horn, Inoue, Ortiz, and Rutten were all quite good. I wish he'd come back and compete at 185 or maybe even Welterweight. If Dana can patch things up with BJ and Tito, why not Frank as well?

 

Dave Menne - I can't say that I've seen much of him outside the drubbings from Busta and Baroni. When I think of him, I think of the quintessential early Zuffa era fighter.

 

Pat Miletich - gah. Don't watch his fights at UFC 16. UFC 16 had some really good fights in TK vs. Kimo, Jackson vs. Bohlander, Burnett/Tadeau to a point, and the sweet ass fuck of Frank/Igor, but jesus christ if Pat doesn't bring it down.

 

Jens Pulver - I kinda feel bad for Jens because you know he'd be hugely over if he were having the fights he had a few years ago in the UFC today. He deserves to be remembered by a larger audience. That dude loved being champion, and brought so much emotion to his fights. When Sylvia won the title from Ricco, Jens was riding the fence and was so happy for Tim. Hopefully if/when the UFC brings back the lightweights, Jens will be there.

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

Mark Coleman: Sorta weird. Coleman went from an incredibly over-powering dominate force in MMA, to a laughing stock, back to a force, and to...what-ever he is now. Coleman pioneered the style of Ground & Pound, but never overcame all his flaws as a fighter. His cardio never really improved, he never got significantly better at standing, and he never significantly improved his submissions. With MMA changing so much around him, he's gotten passed by. Atleast he's not Randleman, though.

 

Frank Shamrock: Frank's a weird one for me. I think it's undeniable that Frank was exceptionally good at fighting, and could have went down as one of the best ever...but I'm of the thinking that he left way before he could prove it, and he's never taken any money fights in PRIDE either. Frank reminds me of Royce now, he'd only fight if the promotion gave him everything he wanted, and thats not how you prove you're a best ever.

 

Pat Miletich: One of my least liked fighters ever. Every Pat fight I saw bored me to fucking tears. It's not because he was bad, which we all know he wasn't...but because he was BORING. I can't say he's the most boring fighter in "modern" MMA to be successful...but...from what I've seen? He's pretty fuckin up there.

 

Andrei Arlovski: From what I've seen of Arlovski, and his recent record, I'd have to say Andrei is an elite in MMA. I can't safely say he'd beat PRIDE's top three(Mirko would be the easiest, and you can't ever say anything about Fedor losing), I think he'd give all three a solid fight. If I were UFC, I'd promote the fucking ungodlyshit out of Arlovski, like Mike Tyson was promoted. Just feed him whoever every two months or so, and let him maul people. Insta money, way better then what their doing with him right now...aka, nothing.

 

Chuck Liddell: Liddell is weird for me. He's an amazing fighter, but I still don't buy that he's the demi-god that people think he is now. He should be LHW champ for months to come though.

 

Rich Franklin: Not much to say here. Rich will dominate the MW division for quite some time.

 

Matt Hughes: A part of me dislikes Matt Hughes. Another part of me really likes him. The first part thinks Hughes is overrated...the other half remembers every thrashing he's given to just about everyone in his path. Probably in the top three, of P4P fighters. I don't think he'll be WW champ much longer with how that division is stacking up, but right now, he's the man.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Andrei Arlovski - an awesome stand up fighter, some quick and very hard hitting hands that can do serious damage. I think he is being seriously protected, though, by the UFC. I can understand why they do that, because stability is something that tends not to happen in the UFC outside the welterweight division and the longer AA holds the title, the better. But in terms of how to judge him as a fighter, I want to see him tested. I want to see his back against the cage, I want to see him on the ground, I want to see him against someone who doesn't want to trade hands with him.

 

Chuck Liddell - I can't rank Chuck as the #1 LHW in the world. I just can't. The guy has one of the most impressive records in the sport yet I can't think of him as the best in the game because he's so damn one dimensional. Randy Couture, to me, is the best LHW in the world, still, despite his recent loss to Liddell. I don't even know if Liddell beating Couture again would convince me otherwise. I think Couture matches up bad for more guys than Chuck does.

 

Rich Franklin - I've been a fan of Franklins since I saw him debut against Tanner in the UFC. The guy had "the future" written all over him, and I am kinda disappointed that he never stayed at LHW. His recent performances against Tanner and Quarry have been very impressive, if not scary given the way he beat them. Well rounded, his fight against Rivera tends to get overlooked (it was very good), and the guy is just really likable. Like AA, he's being protected by the UFC so they can have long reigning champions, but I can't wait for him vs. Loiseau.

 

Matt Hughes - I used to really not like Matt Hughes. Probably because I was a big Carlos Newton fan and for the most part found his fights to be boring. However, in the past few years I've grown to like him more based on his dickishness. The dude cuts some amazing promos where he obliterates his opponents even before the fight starts. His stuff with Trigg is classic, both in and out of the ring. There are two huge match ups against BJ and GSP that it seems they are pissing away by having (rumoured) BJ vs. GSP for a #1 contenders spot.

[Lei Tong 0]

I want to see his back against the cage, I want to see him on the ground, I want to see him against someone who doesn't want to trade hands with him.

 

Well, with Monson's debut victory over Hinkle upcoming, you may get your wish, assuming:

 

1) They avoid matching up Monson with either Sylvia or Vera

and 2) Arlovski manages to keep destroying his competition as he should

 

Aside from the 3 mentioned, Monson would pretty much sex up anyone in the UFC something fierce.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Imagine if he came to the ring with Color Me BAAAAAAAAADD music? That would be pretty cool.

 

Oh man, remember how good the UFC HW division was before? Ricco, Randy, Rizzo, Barnett being the mainstays, with new guys coming in like TK or Pete Williams or Frank Mir. In hindsight obviously the sport has evolved past most of them, but for the most part that was a pretty sick division at the time.

 

Now I would say its Arlovski in a class by himself, than Sylvia in a class by himself, than the rest. I don't know how to place Mir at this point.

[Guest Brian]

Chuck Liddell - I can't rank Chuck as the #1 LHW in the world. I just can't. The guy has one of the most impressive records in the sport yet I can't think of him as the best in the game because he's so damn one dimensional. Randy Couture, to me, is the best LHW in the world, still, despite his recent loss to Liddell. I don't even know if Liddell beating Couture again would convince me otherwise. I think Couture matches up bad for more guys than Chuck does.

 

The advantage to Chuck is that all his other traits complement his stand-up, so even though he is one dimensional, he can play many of the other dimensions to his advantage (ex. hard chin, wrestling that helps him get to his feet and provide an excellent base for his sprawl).

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

But see, I prefer well rounded fighters and think they are the superior _fighters_. Someone who relies purely on defense in some areas is bound to get solved by another fighter (Chuck/Randy 1), but if you have a well developed game, you can not only survive anywhere, you can win anywhere. You know, that whole Bruce Lee shit with being water.

[Guest Brian]

See, the whole water thing is bullshit, because no matter what, you're going to end up really strong in one area and build a base there. It's more like a building foundation, where certain elements are important and strong, but they're all built around a single cornerstone. Franklin's primarily a striker as well, and his ground skill accentuates his striking. Chuck has a purple belt in jiu-jitsu and a wrestling background, but it's there to help him get to his bread and butter. Hughes has submission skill because it fleshes out his ground and pound and wrestling. As much as these guys crosstrain, they still have a stronger base than all their other skills, and it shows that often it's putting together the right combination of skills that make you a great fighter, allowing you to match up your strengths against other guys.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

But when the fuck do you see Liddell pull out submissions or a guard game in his losses? When Couture had him on the ground, he was flappin around. When Jackson had him on his back, he couldn't do anything. If you rely on one thing, eventually someone is going to solve you and you won't be able to adapt.

[Guest Brian]

I knew this was coming, and Chuck's come along way since both of those fights (granted the Rampage fight is on an old computer and I haven't seen it in a while). Primarily, both fighter were able to expose the weaknesses in his stand-up game, by beating him, taking angles, throwing straight punches and closing gaps. It wasn't that they just put Chuck on his back, it was that they beat him standing that allowed them to control the takedown game, and I don't think that's something they can do again. His footwork alone over the last two-and-a-half years has improved a ton, and I think people underrate that. Chuck can manage to stand off Randy like he did after the first takedown, then I think he can get enough of an opportunity standing to do some serious damage at some point. If Randy comes in sluggish, like his last two fights, Chuck's left is going to walk right through him.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Chuck doesn't really have a purple belt.

 

Wanderlei Silva is probably less well-rounded. At least Chuck can wrestle. Wand can strike and not do much else. His guard game is shit, but he is good at holding people tight, ala Anderson Silva. I still can't believe Rampage beat him. The only excuses are that the first time he went through a much tougher fight, the second time he didn't eat for three days and had no training partners. On paper, he should be able to beat him.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Silva's guard is a buzillion times better than Chucks. It looked very good in the first fight against Yoshida. While Silva is not very well rounded, I'd say he's more well rounded than Chuck.

 

Rampage beat Chuck standing because he can block punches really well and Chuck wasn't able to break through his defense. Chuck was neutralized. Rampage gets beaten standing when someone rushes him and overwhelms him. That's not Chuck. Chuck picks his spots and fires off, and Rampage can defend that. I see a rematch going the same way as it did the first time, cept maybe Chuck makes it through the entire fight and loses a decision.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Wand's guard is not nearly as highly utilized as Chuck's wrestling, thereby leading me to believe that Chuck is more well rounded.

[Sass 0]

Mark Coleman:

 

Top 5 UFC heavyweight and a top 10 all-time MMA heavyweight.

 

Frank Shamrock:

 

The Mike Tyson of MMA, minus the crazyness. He dominated a weak field of fighters and left before the competition really got tough for him (Rich Franklin and Randy Couture).

 

Dave Menne:

 

Harmless. The John Ruiz of Freestyle. Menne never had any problem going to a decision with fighters, which is how he won most of his fights.

 

Pat Miletich:

 

Out of 28 fights, and 6 losses, only 2 of Miletich's losses were for actuallt getting knocked out (Lindland) or by submission (Alessio). The other losses came by decisions and other shit like that. For about 3 years, Miletich was one of the biggest badass's in MMA. His training camp is amazing too and he deserves credit for its success.

[Lei Tong 0]

Dave Menne:

 

Harmless. The John Ruiz of Freestyle. Menne never had any problem going to a decision with fighters, which is how he won most of his fights.

 

Two words: Antonio McKee.

 

Pat Miletich:

 

Out of 28 fights, and 6 losses, only 2 of Miletich's losses were for actuallt getting knocked out (Lindland) or by submission (Alessio). The other losses came by decisions and other shit like that. For about 3 years, Miletich was one of the biggest badass's in MMA.

 

Okay, broken record time:

 

- Miletich submitted Alessio, not vice versa.

 

- Miletich only ever lost one decision, to Kiyoshi Tamura in RINGS.

 

- Miletich was TKO'ed 3 times (by Matt Hume, Jose "Pele" Landi-Jons & Matt Lindland), submitted once (by Carlos Newton) and choked out by Jutaro Nakao.

 

- While a good fighter, Pat was actually more feared by fans than opponents due to his economical style, which hardly won him admiration when he was still fighting. And at best, Miletich may have been one of the Top 5 WW's in the world, but no higher.

Edited December 25, 2005 by Lei Tong

[Sass 0]

Jens Pulver:

 

Little Evil busts his ass in fights and fights hard and still takes up to 3 fights in a year, which is tough to train for. He handed an inexperienced BJ Penn his only UFC loss, which needs a rematch between these two.

 

Andrei Arlovski:

 

No one has any idea how good Arlovski is since he's never faced any any fighter's the calibre of PRIDE's heavyweight division in a given UFC fight year. He's got the size (6'4", 240 lbs) and appears to have the discipline and fighting ability to take on anyone. Against Fedor, I don't think many people would see Arlovski as a major underdog. The guy can knock people out and get them to tap out as well. He'll go far in MMA.

 

Chuck Liddell:

 

Total badass. Top 10 in his division, easy. He has become a better fighter as time has gone on. He has avenged nearly all of his 3 losses. A fight against Quinton Jackson needs to go down in the UFC sometime this upcoming year. Not every MMA fighter can have nearly 20 fights with all of his losses avenged. Is practically the defition of "puncher's chance" in MMA. He needs a clean win over Randy Couture in their next fight so he can put his critics to rest.

 

Rich Franklin:

 

He's got 19 wins and 1 loss (Ryoto Machida). This guy improves with every fight he has had so far in the UFC. His one loss is to a guy who outweighs him by over 30 pounds who Franklin could probably beat if the two met at the same weight. He's a top 5 fighter in a stacked division.

 

Matt Hughes:

 

A total workhorse. This guy trains like a madman for every one of his fights and hasn't backed down from any competition. Him vs. BJ Penn needs to happen ASAP. Right now, Hughes is the king of the mountain until him and Penn square off again.

[AmericanDragon 0]

Rich Franklin:

 

He's got 19 wins and 1 loss (Ryoto Machida). This guy improves with every fight he has had so far in the UFC. His one loss is to a guy who outweighs him by over 30 pounds who Franklin could probably beat if the two met at the same weight. He's a top 5 fighter in a stacked division.

 

They were the same weight and size for their fight (~215lbs) and Machida was chubby. He could easily make 205 and could even make 185 if he did it slowly like Franklin did.

[Sass 0]

Franklin is a guy who I could see fighting in 200 + fights like 15 to 20 years from now.

[Guest HungryJack]

Doubt it. Dude is over 30 already, unless he takes fighting to Severn levels of ridiculousness.