Danielson vs Strong

[Exslade ZX 0]

Yea, sadly, I don't really keep up with ROH. Or really watch it at all for that matter, so I'm not sure if this was all part of an angle, or build up to the something more, but as the title says, is what happened is the clip 'legit'?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=Liu8XDljlYQ&search=roh

 

And if it is...well, wow, for a guy that's supposed to be one of the greatest wrestlers out there right now, that's really fucking unprofessional, and all the blame would be on AmDrag.

 

Also, for anyone who doesn't know that site has quite a few good wrestling clips up there, just search ROH, TNa, etc. for a few cool music videos and such, as well as some full matches.

[Guest OSIcon]

It was the planned finish.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Then it sucked.

 

It's these worked shoots that keep popping up out of the blue that stop me from being a big ROH fan. The most annoying thing is, they don't NEED to do it. They have enough talent to put on a show, without resorting to trying to sell tickets off of the possibility of Danielson and Strong shooting on each other in a rematch.

[Tim Cooke 0]

Did you even watch the whole match?

 

The finish is built to throughout. Danielson spends early portions of the match working on Strong's arm.

[Kardo 0]

Did you even watch the whole match?

 

The finish is built to throughout. Danielson spends early portions of the match working on Strong's arm.

 

Wow, I just ordered the DVD of the match based on that. That's some intensity they have going on there.

 

Personally I'd rather a 10 minute match that intense and hate filled then a 45 minute one at a slower pace.

 

I'm actually sick of "Finishers" because everyone expects them to be the finish, it takes away from the unpredictability of wrestling.

Edited December 21, 2005 by Kardo

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

I assume this is the armbar from out of nowhere in the first match and not the UFC-crucifix elbows from the rematch?

 

 

Either way, if you don't like this, you probably won't like the ending to the rematch. If you like the intensity from this, you'll love the rematch.

[Exslade ZX 0]

This post has no point then >_>.

[Tim Cooke 0]

Not you, King Chucharacha was who I was responding to.

 

Tim

[Hawk 34 0]

I'd like to point out, how good Danielson has been as the champion for Ring of Honor.

 

Since winning the title at Glory By Honor IV over James Gibson in a very good match that has wrongly been overshadowed by the Kobashi/Joe hype. Danielson has had a very solid run with the title with a couple exceptional title bouts already in the start of what appears to be a very healthy reign with the title.

 

The two Strong matches were just setting the table and I have high expectations that the 3rd ROH showdown will be nothing short of awesome.

 

He also has had solid matches with Aries, Corino, Sabin, Daniels and Romero.

 

I have only heard nothing but praise for his match with Marufuji @ FB05.

 

There's alot of nostalgic waxed over Samoa Joe's reign but the truth was, Samoa Joe's reign (4 months in) wasn't nearly as credible and impressive as Danielson's first four months. Danielson's run might not have the buzz that came with Punk's but It's been a great start and it certainly won't slow down.

[JustJoe2k5 0]

I must say, that guy doing the voiceover sure does know how to get someone excited about what's going on. That guy really irritates me, he either sounds uninterested or like he is trying too hard to sound interested.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Did you even watch the whole match?

 

The finish is built to throughout. Danielson spends early portions of the match working on Strong's arm.

 

Wrestling is either a work or a shoot. When you blur the line, you open yourselves up for all sorts of questions you can't answer.

 

Why did Danielson work on Strong's arm through the match if he can just shoot on people and make them tap to an armbar in 3 seconds? Why doesn't he just go for that armbar every match, right from the opening bell? Or any other 'legitimate' hold. Ditto Joe, or any other wrestlers who could be considered a 'dangerous technical wrestler'. Why doesn't Danielson shoot on everyone if it wins him matches so easily? It makes the rest of the match look a waste of time. It makes chain wrestling a waste of time. You're saying that certain moves are 'legitimate' or 'real', so therefore other armbars aren't? It exposes the business.

 

You know, I've no problem with Strong losing to a Danielson armbar. But when it's booked that Danielson 'snaps' and becomes 'unprofessional', 'shoots' on Strong and 'forces' him to tap out, who's 'pissed' and 'storms off' to the back swearing as if it wasn't the planned finish...I personally couldn't give a shit. Worked shoots didn't work for Russo, why should they work for Gabe?

[World's Worst Man 0]

I kind of agree with that. If he was working the arm throughout the match, the armbar finish makes sense, and there's no reason to turn it into a worked shoot. It's just business exposing to act like the guy stopped "cooperating" and started shooting. I'm sure 100% of ROH fans know wrestling is a work, but I don't think people want to be told "The wrestlers cooperate with each other to produce a match, but Danielson stopped cooperating and forced an unplanned finish". It ruins the illusion of the show.

[JustJoe2k5 0]

It wouldn't have been as bad if Strong sold the arm injury after the match. From what I saw, he popped right back up after submitting and started to argue with Danielson.

[haws bah gawd 0]

Im not trying to take anything away from Danielson, who is a phenominal wrestler, but those were some girly slaps he started throwing at Strong, just before slapping on that sick armlock.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Strong should of sold the arm more, but him getting up after the match and leaving was suppose to be him being angry that he tapped out so fast.

[Tim Cooke 0]

On the ROH web site clip, it was portrayed as a worked-shoot.

 

Not on tape.

 

Professional Wrestling entails guys fighting to win a match, not to try to kill their opponents (unless the feud is built up to the point where they hate each other so much).

 

So while punching an opponent could knock them out, the basic rule of most matches that aren't "Last Man Standing" or UWF style is to wear your opponent down for a pinfall or submission.

 

So in this match, Strong throws such a strong forearm that he briefly knocks Danielson out. Strong doesn't even realize what he did and can't capitalize because Danielson is dead weight. He comes to a few seconds later and realizes that Strong, the guy he has been toying with the whole match, actually KO'ed him for a few seconds. This pisses him off (his whole title reign is based around the fact that he is better than everyone else, by a wide margin) and he catches Strong off guard with the cross armbreaker (which is hit from a non-traditional stance). Danielson is yelling at Strong after the match because he is still pissed, even though he won.

 

Throughout the rest of the match, if he had been trying for an armbar, Strong would have been blocking it and going against it during every attempt, thus why it worked here.

 

The problem was the way it was portrayed in the newswire and then on the web site. I agree there. But on tape and in the storylines, it is portrayed as almost another version of the "You don't potato Stan Hanson angle" that AJPW ran in the late 80's.

 

This wasn't Vince Russo's "Goldberg just walked away from the powerbomb."

 

Tim

[King Cucaracha 0]

Professional Wrestling entails guys fighting to win a match, not to try to kill their opponents (unless the feud is built up to the point where they hate each other so much).

 

I guess what you're saying is the same as the Gorilla Monsoon (at least, I think it was him) quote: "When you have someone in a hammerlock, it's so easy to break someone's arm, but you just don't." I agree with that aspect, totally.

 

The thing that annoys me is, it could have been done so exactly like that but without the worked shoot aspect at the end and have been so effective. If Danielson was just knocked loopy or they didn't over-play the KO, just had him do the 'Fighting Spirit' comeback, that would have been fine.

 

I'll be honest, I haven't seen the tape, so maybe I shouldn't comment too much. The way it was played up web-site at least was stupid though.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Danielson is a heel. Why would he use the Fighting Spirit comeback?

[Copper Feel 0]

I found this gem under the video:

 

"Strong and Danielson gets into an unkayfabe like fight with each other after Strong knocks out Danielson, then Danielson gets mad and puts a legit armbar on Strong. Don't mess with a guy who trained in New Japan!"

 

[King Cucaracha 0]

Danielson is a heel. Why would he use the Fighting Spirit comeback?

 

Oh yeah, shit.

 

Well, the finish made Dragon look more of a face than Strong really as it was.

[Guest Andrew J.]

If I remember right, Strong accidentally knocked out Danielson for real, and after he came to they went to the finish right away for safety reasons. They were legit annoyed afterwards because the match they wanted had been cut short by the accident, which was why a rematch was booked so soon afterwards-so they could put on the match they wanted.

[Tim Cooke 0]

Where did you hear this?

[Guest Andrew J.]

Where did you hear this?

 

 

Just vaguely remember it. It might be totally wrong.

[DangerousDamon 0]

I think you have to watch the whole match and listen to the commentary to the appreciate the ending.

 

 

Dragon thinks Strong isn't in his league so he toys with him at first, but when Rod starts laying in the hard strikes and chops, Dragon gets pissed. The whole match is basically both guys losing their tempers, which is evident at the end when Dragon puts Strong in that crazy ass armbar.

[tpww7 0]

In the WON Meltzer had said that the 10/29 finish was not the planned finish and it was to go around 50 minutes with the idea of it going 60. Which is what happened in the rematch in Chicago.

[Guest hasbeen]

When I watch wrestling, I look at it like a movie or other fictional television show. I don't expect the actors playing Darth Vader and Ben Kenobi or whatever his name was to legit take shots at each other, or their stuntmen, if one was hit too stiff. Finishes are planned in advance, most of the moves are, and if it becomes "real" in any way it takes away from all the other parts completely to me unless it's a legit injury and something has to be improvised. As for finishers, all but the top level guys have finishers being kicked out of regularly nowadays and to me that weakens matches. The finishers should almost never be kicked out of, make a wrestler look better by having him avoid the finisher, not kicking out of it and making the other one look totally weak.

[EricMM 0]

Or maybe wrestling needs to be not as reliant on "finishers" as a whole.

 

No move is magical...

[Kardo 0]

Or maybe wrestling needs to be not as reliant on "finishers" as a whole.

 

No move is magical...

 

Finshers are terrible, they take away from teh heat of the match, since most people just pop for the finisher.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

The way I look at this is that AmDrag has become an asshole because he thinks he is better than everyone. He toys with Roderick Strong the whole match and then Strong starts bringing the strikes and legit knocks him out with the forearm. Dragon wakes up, goes into a rage, and the most technically-well rounded wrestler in the world snaps and locks in an armbar. The man who is known for working his opponents down just looses it and tries to break Strong's arm.

 

 

There ya go.

[Matt Young 0]

The video's gone. I also saw a video of Samoa Joe vs. Kobashi that was on there, which I can't find now. Does anyone know where I can see that?