Loose Change 2nd Edition

[Gary Floyd 0]

Someone should read Popular Mechanics.

 

I'm sorry, but either this government is the greatest two-faced most brilliant and evil entity out there

 

or its just wholly incompetent when it comes to wars, feeding the poor, taxing us, and yes, preventing terrorism.

 

I think I'll believe that the government is just completely incompetent.

 

There have been many instances where conspiracy theorists have quoted people out of context or use people's "description of what it was like" to be the literal truth.

 

There was no conspiracy. Two planes hit the towers. A plane hit the pentagon. People lost loved ones.

 

Please take your whackjob theories elsewhere. You're doing a disservice to liberals everywhere

 

(yeah, I said it)

Thanks for saying it. Unfortunately, conspiracy nuts dismiss the Popular Mechanics article, because God forbid we pay attention to actual facts instead of their wacky bullshit.

[Guest wahoo]

Someone should read Popular Mechanics.

 

Yeah, it has some good stuff. They also say they aren't 100% sure why Building 7 collapsed and that they can only theorize. Yes, they use that word. Popular Mechanics openly admits to making their own 9/11 theories.

 

I think I'll believe that the government is just completely incompetent.

 

That's pretty much what I'm getting at. Bad intelligence, poor investigation, failure to release info and answer questions, weird coincidences, poor media coverage = conspiracy theories run amok. The way to counter this is open discussion and facts about every aspect of such a huge event. Every possible detail should be looked at and discussed in detail.

 

Some people have a problem with this for whatever reason. Talking in detail about the failures involved in Katrina, the murder of the wife of OJ, or even Paris Hilton's clothing style or what Vince McMahon eats for breakfast -- now people have no problem with that.

 

There have been many instances where conspiracy theorists have quoted people out of context or use people's "description of what it was like" to be the literal truth.

 

Are you saying there weren't things exploding? A proper investigation would have at least considered the chance that some bombs had been planted by the terrorists. The lobby especially and building 7 look like a possibility. The ever small chance that a terrorist could still be out there that planted a bomb is reason enough for it to be considered.

 

Please take your whackjob theories elsewhere.

 

Oh, I thought you were talking to me. Surely you've fully read my posts and are intelligent enough to deduce that I have no theories or accusations.

 

You're doing a disservice to liberals everywhere

 

What do the events of 9/11 have to do with liberalism? Like I said before, it was a Republican Congressperson who recently made an issue of what was known about the hijackers before 9/11. Also, Bob Dole's former advisor Stanley Hilton was in charge of some lawsuits against the government by victim's families.

 

Call me weird for being obsessed with history if you must, but I assure you I have no conspiracy theories.

[snuffbox 0]

(yeah, I said it)

 

Yes, yes you did...along with about ten others..."shut up you conspiracy foil-hat wacko! get a job/haircut, hippie"

 

I think the weirdos should try attaching their passports to the tinfoil hat for better reception from Mars. It sounds like those documents are sprinkled with some kind of magic fairy dust. I wonder where old Harvey Oswald's passport is these days....

[Gary Floyd 0]

Someone should read Popular Mechanics.

 

Yeah, it has some good stuff. They also say they aren't 100% sure why Building 7 collapsed and that they can only theorize. Yes, they use that word. Popular Mechanics openly admits to making their own 9/11 theories.

 

I think I'll believe that the government is just completely incompetent.

 

That's pretty much what I'm getting at. Bad intelligence, poor investigation, failure to release info and answer questions, weird coincidences, poor media coverage = conspiracy theories run amok. The way to counter this is open discussion and facts about every aspect of such a huge event. Every possible detail should be looked at and discussed in detail.

 

Some people have a problem with this for whatever reason. Talking in detail about the failures involved in Katrina, the murder of the wife of OJ, or even Paris Hilton's clothing style or what Vince McMahon eats for breakfast -- now people have no problem with that.

 

There have been many instances where conspiracy theorists have quoted people out of context or use people's "description of what it was like" to be the literal truth.

 

Are you saying there weren't things exploding? A proper investigation would have at least considered the chance that some bombs had been planted by the terrorists. The lobby especially and building 7 look like a possibility. The ever small chance that a terrorist could still be out there that planted a bomb is reason enough for it to be considered.

 

Please take your whackjob theories elsewhere.

 

Oh, I thought you were talking to me. Surely you've fully read my posts and are intelligent enough to deduce that I have no theories or accusations.

 

You're doing a disservice to liberals everywhere

 

What do the events of 9/11 have to do with liberalism? Like I said before, it was a Republican Congressperson who recently made an issue of what was known about the hijackers before 9/11. Also, Bob Dole's former advisor Stanley Hilton was in charge of some lawsuits against the government by victim's families.

 

Call me weird for being obsessed with history if you must, but I assure you I have no conspiracy theories.

You should really just stop. Nobody here is taking you seriously.

 

Oh, and I dare one of you fucking conspiracy theorists to say these kind of things to somebody who lost someone on 9/11. I'll bet your theories will go over great.

 

Also, this is one of the worst threads I have ever posted in.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Because government and people in politics and power never lie or do anything decietful. They always tell the 100 percent truth on all matters all of the time. We can believe everything they say and they won't even put a slant on it.

 

I don't know if it's because you guys are young, naive or inexperienced with life but man if you can't admit that there is something at least suspect here than you're to put it bluntly just totally blind.

Now I don't know what happened that day just like everyone else but if you think for a second that A)the government won't kill its own people for some other purpose or B)They are being 100% truthful than you are worse off than all the crazy conspiracy theory people out there that you so vehemently demise.

 

To make a sports or politics comparison here -- This is what I see partly happening here. People get behind a group or sports team for whatever reason. They than get attached to said team or politicial group more and more as time goes by. This is happening a lot here with the "I believe everything government does" group fueled in part from the disgust they have with the conspiracists. However, it's making them blind to all possibilites and coming back with the "You're just stupid and crazy" line is just making them look like the stupid ones.

 

Now let me repeat myself yet again. I don't know what happened that day but common sense dictates that there is something wrong somewhere and we are being lied to in some kind of form. I can't understand why people suddenly trust the government completely on a matter that has so much ramnifications. If they lie on everything else than why wouldn't they lie at least some on this as well? If you're going to lie than this is the type of thing you lie on because the reprucussions are huge. Since when have we ever trusted government to be always honest? Yeah, I suppose they only have good intentions in Iraq as well.

 

I'm sorry, wildpegasus, but this is the dumbest bunch of limp wristed crap I think I've read yet in this thread, and that's saying something. "Common sense says something is wrong and we are being lied to"??? No, I think the voices in your head say something is wrong and you're being lied to. Yes, the government covers things up and misleads the public, occasionally. Such is life, power corrupts absolutely, etc. However, do you honestly believe this administration, which has otherwise been almost completely incompetent in foreign and domestic affairs, was able to orchestrate such a colossal attack on it's own nation, without anyone blowing a whistle to the public?

 

Don't take me for some young, naive person. I'm a college graduate with a full time job, a house, and a marriage. I'm not some college student sitting in my dorm room inhaling left wing drivel from my professors who are still living in the free love 1960s and reminiscing about taking down the evil Richard Nixon.

 

Yes, there are things that were weird and strange about 9-11. That's because nothing like this has ever happened to the US, at least since Pearl Harbor. Yet, you conspiracy nuts can only offer ramblings and hypothetical conjecture, along with commentary from disillusioned ex-government employees. That's not evidence of any kind in the real world. Maybe you should come back and join the rest of us in reality. Either that, or like someone else said, go spout your theories to someone who lost a loved one on that fateful day, and see how convincing you are then.

 

But then again, it's safer to hide behind the keyboard where your words can't hurt people's feelings, and you don't have to answer for your own lunacy.

[Gary Floyd 0]

Because government and people in politics and power never lie or do anything decietful. They always tell the 100 percent truth on all matters all of the time. We can believe everything they say and they won't even put a slant on it.

 

I don't know if it's because you guys are young, naive or inexperienced with life but man if you can't admit that there is something at least suspect here than you're to put it bluntly just totally blind.

Now I don't know what happened that day just like everyone else but if you think for a second that A)the government won't kill its own people for some other purpose or B)They are being 100% truthful than you are worse off than all the crazy conspiracy theory people out there that you so vehemently demise.

 

To make a sports or politics comparison here -- This is what I see partly happening here. People get behind a group or sports team for whatever reason. They than get attached to said team or politicial group more and more as time goes by. This is happening a lot here with the "I believe everything government does" group fueled in part from the disgust they have with the conspiracists. However, it's making them blind to all possibilites and coming back with the "You're just stupid and crazy" line is just making them look like the stupid ones.

 

Now let me repeat myself yet again. I don't know what happened that day but common sense dictates that there is something wrong somewhere and we are being lied to in some kind of form. I can't understand why people suddenly trust the government completely on a matter that has so much ramnifications. If they lie on everything else than why wouldn't they lie at least some on this as well? If you're going to lie than this is the type of thing you lie on because the reprucussions are huge. Since when have we ever trusted government to be always honest? Yeah, I suppose they only have good intentions in Iraq as well.

 

I'm sorry, wildpegasus, but this is the dumbest bunch of limp wristed crap I think I've read yet in this thread, and that's saying something. "Common sense says something is wrong and we are being lied to"??? No, I think the voices in your head say something is wrong and you're being lied to. Yes, the government covers things up and misleads the public, occasionally. Such is life, power corrupts absolutely, etc. However, do you honestly believe this administration, which has otherwise been almost completely incompetent in foreign and domestic affairs, was able to orchestrate such a colossal attack on it's own nation, without anyone blowing a whistle to the public?

 

Don't take me for some young, naive person. I'm a college graduate with a full time job, a house, and a marriage. I'm not some college student sitting in my dorm room inhaling left wing drivel from my professors who are still living in the free love 1960s and reminiscing about taking down the evil Richard Nixon.

 

Yes, there are things that were weird and strange about 9-11. That's because nothing like this has ever happened to the US, at least since Pearl Harbor. Yet, you conspiracy nuts can only offer ramblings and hypothetical conjecture, along with commentary from disillusioned ex-government employees. That's not evidence of any kind in the real world. Maybe you should come back and join the rest of us in reality. Either that, or like someone else said, go spout your theories to someone who lost a loved one on that fateful day, and see how convincing you are then.

 

But then again, it's safer to hide behind the keyboard where your words can't hurt people's feelings, and you don't have to answer for your own lunacy.

Thanks for referencing here.

 

Oh, and wildpegasus, thanks for making wahoo seem sane.

[Guest wildpegasus]

However, do you honestly believe this administration, which has otherwise been almost completely incompetent in foreign and domestic affairs, was able to orchestrate such a colossal attack on it's own nation, without anyone blowing a whistle to the public?

 

All I'm saying is that I and you as well don't know the complete story. That and the US government is not being completely honest with everything. That's all. I don't see what's so crazy about that.

 

 

Either that, or like someone else said, go spout your theories to someone who lost a loved one on that fateful day, and see how convincing you are then.

 

But then again, it's safer to hide behind the keyboard where your words can't hurt people's feelings, and you don't have to answer for your own lunacy.

 

What theories am I sprouting? That the firefighters were telling the truth and not lying about there being explosions? Man, that's far out there. Put me in the looney bin.

I have no problem stating my statement I just made up above ("All I'm saying is that I and you as well don't know the complete story. That and the US government is not being completely honest with everything.")

to someone who lost a loved one though I don't know why I'd want to.

 

What I am really against here is the complete and total sheer blindness that a lot of the anticonspiracy people are throwing about in this thread.

[Gary Floyd 0]

However, do you honestly believe this administration, which has otherwise been almost completely incompetent in foreign and domestic affairs, was able to orchestrate such a colossal attack on it's own nation, without anyone blowing a whistle to the public?

 

All I'm saying is that I and you as well don't know the complete story. That and the US government is not being completely honest with everything. That's all. I don't see what's so crazy about that.

 

 

Either that, or like someone else said, go spout your theories to someone who lost a loved one on that fateful day, and see how convincing you are then.

 

But then again, it's safer to hide behind the keyboard where your words can't hurt people's feelings, and you don't have to answer for your own lunacy.

 

What theories am I sprouting? That the firefighters were telling the truth and not lying about there being explosions? Man, that's far out there. Put me in the looney bin.

I have no problem stating my statement I just made up above ("All I'm saying is that I and you as well don't know the complete story. That and the US government is not being completely honest with everything.")

to someone who lost a loved one though I don't know why I'd want to.

 

What I am really against here is the complete and total sheer blindness that a lot of the anticonspiracy people are throwing about in this thread.

Congratulations WP, you are now an

 

Folks, lets face it: Most conspiracy theories are bullshit. In spite of what idiotic hippies want you to believe, the government did not cause 9/11. If you really think this, then congratulations: you are about as smart as the average rebelious teenager, meaning that you are fucking useless.

 

Oh and again WP, I dare you to say your theories to someone who lost a loved one on 9/11.

 

Finally, It may be a cheap plug, but read this entry in my blog to see what I think of conspiracy theorists and conspiracy theories.

[snuffbox 0]

So...nobody really wants to discuss the magic flying passport? Just post retarded pics and call people nutcases?

 

"dur...tinfiol hat...dur...shut up conspiracy wackos."

[Gary Floyd 0]

So...nobody really wants to discuss the magic flying passport? Just post retarded pics and call people nutcases?

 

"dur...tinfiol hat...dur...shut up conspiracy wackos."

Christ, what the fuck is there to discuss?

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Oh, and I dare one of you fucking conspiracy theorists to say these kind of things to somebody who lost someone on 9/11. I'll bet your theories will go over great.

 

Fuck you, lovecraft. There are people who lost family members on 9/11 who don't blindly trust government accounts like you. Sorry, but after your country has been constantly lied to by the government, even lied into seemingly disastrous wars in Iraq and Vietnam, then the person who does blindly trust the government account of an event as complicated and serious as 9/11 is the real idiot.

 

And boy, you've really been beating up strawmen all through the thread. Nobody has said that there was a grand conspiracy by George Bush and his neocon cabal. I even said that the official account was probably what most likely happened. But anyone who dares suggest that we take what we're told with a grain of salt gets immediately shat upon by dicks like you.

[snuffbox 0]

Tell me how that passport managed to escape the plane-building collision, evade the fires, float through the air and land a few blocks away intact. Im not going to ask a popular mechanic how it happened...one of the people here who are so vehement that the Govt is absolutely honest can kindly explain how that is even possible.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

P.S. I agree that most 9/11 conspiracy theories are crap.

[snuffbox 0]

Anybody who believes everything theyre told by this Govt probably could use a few weeks in a nice sanitarium.

[snuffbox 0]

P.S. I agree that most 9/11 conspiracy theories are crap.

 

As do I, as do most people...but I see no problem with discussing some of the weird facets of the 'official story'. The people that almost violently support the official story are both annoying, and kind of nutty.

[Gary Floyd 0]

Oh, and I dare one of you fucking conspiracy theorists to say these kind of things to somebody who lost someone on 9/11. I'll bet your theories will go over great.

 

Fuck you, lovecraft. There are people who lost family members on 9/11 who don't blindly trust government accounts like you. Sorry, but after your country has been constantly lied to by the government, even lied into seemingly disastrous wars in Iraq and Vietnam, then the person who does blindly trust the government account of an event as complicated and serious as 9/11 is the real idiot.

 

And boy, you've really been beating up strawmen all through the thread. Nobody has said that there was a grand conspiracy by George Bush and his neocon cabal. I even said that the official account was probably what most likely happened. But anyone who dares suggest that we take what we're told with a grain of salt gets immediately shat upon by dicks like you.

I don't blindly trust the governemnt. I know they lie to us 99% of the time. Hell, I'm pretty fucking sure that they could have done more to prevent 9/11.

 

Look, I'm sorry if I pissed you off. I just get riled up at people like WP acting like idiots. I'm not trying to be some kind of idiot. Hell, I rarely talk about politics. It's just that things like this get on my nerves for some reason. It's good to see that you think that most 9/11 conspiracy theories are bullshit. At least we can agree to that.

 

I'm not apologizing to wildpegasus though.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

I'm not apologizing to wildpegasus though.

 

He's not real, so that's okay.

[Gary Floyd 0]

I'm not apologizing to wildpegasus though.

 

He's not real, so that's okay.

Good to know. Just hope your not pissed off at me anymore. I'm not trying to piss off anynody here.

 

I will say this again though-this thread has really sucked.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

No, it's no big deal.

[snuffbox 0]

This thread should have been made out of passports.

[Gary Floyd 0]

Well then, good to see most of us are sort of on the right page.

[chaosrage 0]

Tell me how that passport managed to escape the plane-building collision, evade the fires, float through the air and land a few blocks away intact. Im not going to ask a popular mechanic how it happened...one of the people here who are so vehement that the Govt is absolutely honest can kindly explain how that is even possible.

 

I thought I already explained this. You even responded to it... ?

[snuffbox 0]

You never explained anything. You said if you cant believe a passport can somehow eject itself from its holder, escape a plane that has just crashed into a giant building, dodge the fires, float through the dusty air, and land in fine condition several blocks away...seek help.

 

I responded to that with heavy sarcasm. I even put the word 'sarcastically' in parenthesis in my response. It sounds pretty, well, Ill just say 'remarkable' for this to have happened with said passport.

[NoCalMike 0]

Oh and again WP, I dare you to say your theories to someone who lost a loved one on 9/11.

 

Finally, It may be a cheap plug, but read this entry in my blog to see what I think of conspiracy theorists and conspiracy theories.

 

 

Well then I dare you to go google "9/11 families outraged" and actually read about how a lot of the families that lost loved ones, don't believe the government and/or that we are being told the truth.

 

Also, I remember back in 2003, when it was all just a "conspiracy theory" that Iraq didn't have WMDs, and that Rumsfield "knew exactly where they were" he had maps, satellite images, and all the other BULLSHIT he could use to scare people with. Oh and then suddenly a week later, "WMDs aren't why we went to Iraq" and "Iraq not having WMDs is old news"

[Gary Floyd 0]

 

Oh and again WP, I dare you to say your theories to someone who lost a loved one on 9/11.

 

Finally, It may be a cheap plug, but read this entry in my blog to see what I think of conspiracy theorists and conspiracy theories.

 

 

Well then I dare you to go google "9/11 families outraged" and actually read about how a lot of the families that lost loved ones, don't believe the government and/or that we are being told the truth.

 

Also, I remember back in 2003, when it was all just a "conspiracy theory" that Iraq didn't have WMDs, and that Rumsfield "knew exactly where they were" he had maps, satellite images, and all the other BULLSHIT he could use to scare people with. Oh and then suddenly a week later, "WMDs aren't why we went to Iraq" and "Iraq not having WMDs is old news"

I'm not saying families who lost loved ones on 9/11 don't have every right to be pissed at the government, because believe me, I think they do. I also don't trust the government. I just think conspiracy theories are insulting to them, and undermine what really happened. Though that's probably just me. I'm just pissed off at wildpegasus for being an idiot. I'm not trying to piss people off here, and I really don't want to argue with anybody here.

 

 

God, this thread really, really sucks. I'm starting to wish it would just be closed. It hasn't proven anything, and it's just pissing people off.

[chaosrage 0]

You never explained anything. You said if you cant believe a passport can somehow eject itself from its holder, escape a plane that has just crashed into a giant building, dodge the fires, float through the dusty air, and land in fine condition several blocks away...seek help.

 

I responded to that with heavy sarcasm. I even put the word 'sarcastically' in parenthesis in my response. It sounds pretty, well, Ill just say 'remarkable' for this to have happened with said passport.

 

Again, just because you can't imagine something happening doesn't mean that it didn't happen or that it needs a better explanation. I don't see what's so hard for you to believe about a piece of paper ejecting and floating away from a plane. Unlike heavy luggage or dead bodies, pieces of paper have been known to float, you know.

 

I remember reading that they found a box of wedding invitations from one of the planes in perfect condition. Well that seems unlikely to me. So, George Bush must have ran out and planted it there.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

NoCalMike, I think that fact is why a lot of these conspiracy theories about 9/11 keep popping up...the Bush administration has lost so much credibility because of the Iraq invasion, that people are willing to go back to a catastrophic event almost five years later, and question what really happened.

 

As far as this "magic passport" people keep alluding to...I already said that if a credible source was presented in terms of a link to this story, I would be willing to discuss it. I have never heard of this passport until this thread, so a link to a legitimate news article or something would be kind of nice, before I go off trying to create a counter argument to something that may or may not have happened in the first place!

 

I'm also getting a little sick of this argument that "the government lies to us 99% of the time, so we need to question one of the most heavily covered news events in the history of the United States." Yeah, the government can be scummy and underhanded, but they're not actively lying to us 24/7. Maybe twisting words and covering things occasionally, but if the government was lying to us almost 100% of the time, the media would be all over it.

 

For the most part, what happens in the country gets reported, mostly accurately. Sometimes you have to wade through a lot of partisan bullshit, but we still have a free press to dissect what the President's press secretary tells us.

 

Honestly, some of you act like we live in Red China or Castro's Cuba or something.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Whoops, accidently double posted.

 

"Yeah, and it rocked, IIRC."

[chaosrage 0]

Has anyone heard the Opie and Anthony interview with one of the producers of the Loose Change video? http://www.911podcasts.com/files/audio/Opi...s911Segment.mp3 It's fucking hilarious. The guy comes off even more insane here than he does in the video.

[Gary Floyd 0]

NoCalMike, I think that fact is why a lot of these conspiracy theories about 9/11 keep popping up...the Bush administration has lost so much credibility because of the Iraq invasion, that people are willing to go back to a catastrophic event almost five years later, and question what really happened.

 

As far as this "magic passport" people keep alluding to...I already said that if a credible source was presented in terms of a link to this story, I would be willing to discuss it. I have never heard of this passport until this thread, so a link to a legitimate news article or something would be kind of nice, before I go off trying to create a counter argument to something that may or may not have happened in the first place!

 

I'm also getting a little sick of this argument that "the government lies to us 99% of the time, so we need to question one of the most heavily covered news events in the history of the United States." Yeah, the government can be scummy and underhanded, but they're not actively lying to us 24/7. Maybe twisting words and covering things occasionally, but if the government was lying to us almost 100% of the time, the media would be all over it.

 

For the most part, what happens in the country gets reported, mostly accurately. Sometimes you have to wade through a lot of partisan bullshit, but we still have a free press to dissect what the President's press secretary tells us.

 

Honestly, some of you act like we live in Red China or Castro's Cuba or something.

No, it's "FACIST AMERIKKKA", a term used by people who make shitty Hitler comparisons and wouldn't know real fascism if bit them on the ass.

 

You people need to read Stephen Johnson's post in this thread.

 

Also, "Synthetic Rebellion" is a great phrase.