Loose Change 2nd Edition

[NoCalMike 0]

I am wondering how people feel about the Northwoods Documents that are declassified, that specifically lays out how the American Military was going to attack it's own people in Cuba in order to make it look like Cuba did it, to work up a frenzy in order to get support to Invade Cuba. Yeah this was 40 years ago, but when you read things like that, it certainly makes it seem more likely that there is reason to be suspicious about unanswered questions.

 

Also, I wish the people that are so profound and taken with their intellectual wit that they respond to articles with "people are stupid enough to believe this" would actually take the time to go research answers to these questions, rather then just post one-liners about how everyone is so much stupider than them for asking questions.

 

I think people need to get with the program here and realize that questions do not equal "conspiracy theories" Not everyone here is denying that Arabs flew planes into the WTC and Pentagon, however what we are questioning is if there was more to the big picture in scheme of things, behind the scenes.

 

If everyone could for a second pretend to just agree that Arabs hijacked planes and flew them into targeted buildings, that would be bliss, but it still wouldn't answer the majority of questions there are regarding the attacks, the days and months leading up to the attacks, and the inconsistencies in most of the testimony given in the 911 Commission Hearings.

[2GOLD 0]

Wait, some people here are actually stupid enough to believe any of this?

 

Depends on what you mean by "this".

 

9/11 conspiracy stuff.

 

These are actually some of the more tame insane theories. I've heard some REALLY insane ones lately. And they have been getting crazier and crazier. Including one that claims the government attached missile launchers to the bottom of the passenger jets and when they malfunctioned, the pilots flew the planes into the towers and make it look like terrorist.

[snuffbox 0]

Why do some people so adamently refuse to even consider any lingering questions from 9-11? Is it post-traumatic stress from that horrible day that prevents people from thinking the Govt's word might not be Gospel?

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Why do some people so adamantly refuse to even consider any lingering questions from 9-11? Is it post-traumatic stress from that horrible day that prevents people from thinking the Govt's word might not be Gospel?

 

No, it's the fact that most of the theories people have come up wtih are completely insane, without any real solid proof as back up. I don't count the stories put forth by bitter liberal former government employees as real concrete proof.

 

As far as the Castro thing someone else put out...have you ever heard the other stuff the government planned involving Cuba? Like the plot to make Castro's beard fall out? The government couldn't stand the fact that there was/is a communist nation 100 miles south of Florida. It was during the red scare.

[bob_barron 0]

Why do some people so adamently refuse to even consider any lingering questions from 9-11?

 

Because some people aren't stupid?

[snuffbox 0]

Yeah, this administration would never ever lie to people. Bill o Reilly said so.

 

I still dont think there was any conspiracy...but Im not so gullible to not at least consider the contradictory evidence. It was a very confusing day in 2001...there was info coming from everywhere, all day, on every network...to simply ignore all of it and just magically believe the official word is kinda dumb. It was one of the most important days in the history of America and we do the victims no justice by not considering all the information available from 9-11.

 

But yeah...looking into anything besides what one is told is 'stupid'.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

There's a ten-mile difference between considering all reasonable options and holding out some weird masturbatory hope that the U.S. government was secretly behind everything. Don't bring out the "do the victims justice" gibberish too--I don't care who's doing justice for whom, I just don't want to have to be embarrassed by my fellow man and his goofy ideas.

 

The government lies about taxes, it lies about its reasons for supporting/rejecting particular social platforms. It doesn't lie about killing 3,000 of its own citizens, and the jibba jabba of a bunch of people who think they understand science or what a particular picture means or any sort of this nonsense is stupid as hell.

[Gary Floyd 0]

There's a ten-mile difference between considering all reasonable options and holding out some weird masturbatory hope that the U.S. government was secretly behind everything. Don't bring out the "do the victims justice" gibberish too--I don't care who's doing justice for whom, I just don't want to have to be embarrassed by my fellow man and his goofy ideas.

 

The government lies about taxes, it lies about its reasons for supporting/rejecting particular social platforms. It doesn't lie about killing 3,000 of its own citizens, and the jibba jabba of a bunch of people who think they understand science or what a particular picture means or any sort of this nonsense is stupid as hell.

Plus, theres the fact that they can't pull off a war successfully. If you think about that fact, then it's pretty obvious that all conspiracy theories about the government causing 9/11 are null and void.

[Guest wahoo]

Because some people aren't stupid?

 

Yeah, looking at facts, doing research and asking questions about one of the most

important days in history -- that's just stupid man!

 

Now if we want to know what Brad and Angelina's kid did today -- that's normal!

 

The government says the black boxes that went into the Towers disintigrated, but one of the highjacker's passport was quickly found in the rubble. There are dozens of other bizzare things like that, but if say "hmm, that's strange" or even mention them at all --- that makes you a stupid freak that hates America.

[Guest]

Never mind, I'll let someone else say it.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

King, I don't know if this is what you meant:

 

I'LL SAY IT! I'm not a hippie, Al-Qaeda loving terrorist if I speak out against the government. What's more North American than the right to choose or the right to express how I feel?

[Guest]

No, it was more having to do with the black boxes being made of metal. I think that conveys the point I was trying to make.

[SuperJerk 0]

Not that I'm advocating any conspiracy theory (I never even heard of this mysterious found passport before), but how exactly could the passport (made of paper) be more likely to survive a fire than a metal box?

[2GOLD 0]

Not that I'm advocating any conspiracy theory (I never even heard of this mysterious found passport before), but how exactly could the passport (made of paper) be more likely to survive a fire than a metal box?

 

And I'm confused why they would have a passport on them on a flight from Boston to LA or from Washington to LA. Unless I missed something, California is still in the United States.

[lomasmoney 0]

Maybe they were going to Hawaii or something and were taking a connecting flight, or were visiting relatives and then going out of the country shortly thereafter...it really isn't that far fetched

[snuffbox 0]

Or maybe it was in their wallet.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I'd like to see a source on this supposed found passport, before jumping to any conclusions.

[chaosrage 0]

The government says the black boxes that went into the Towers disintigrated, but one of the highjacker's passport was quickly found in the rubble. There are dozens of other bizzare things like that, but if say "hmm, that's strange" or even mention them at all --- that makes you a stupid freak that hates America.

 

Right, because a piece of paper would never ever ever eject from a crashing plane.

 

All of you conspiracy nutcases need to realize that just because something is improbable doesn't mean that it didn't happen. The fact that something is improbable also does not mean that it's a lingering question.

[snuffbox 0]

Exactly! If you cant realize that a passport can magically survive a huge destruction like what happened on 911 then you must be a tinfoil hat wearing wacko!

 

That said (sarcastically), Id also like confirmation on this passport thing. Is it actually in the 911 Commission report?

[snuffbox 0]

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/gen.a...tack/index.html

 

Well, the incredible passport is mentioned in this old article...its down the page under 'latest developments'. Apparently it landed intact several blocks from the crash site. I dont wanna be a nutcase so Ill just believe thats possible.

[Guest wahoo]

There are 300+ people in the buildings that claimed to hear multiple explosions well before the towers came down. Are they conspiracy wackos or liars? The planes hit on the upper levels but less than a minute after impact a huge explosion happened on the lower levels that blew the lobby to pieces. Very little fires or damage in the 85 or so levels in between, yet the lobby gets blown to dust and had many dead bodies and people with skin burned off of them. No reports of jet fuel or fires except up top before the lobby explosion. These are documented facts.

 

The following book from the New York Times contains stories from those who got out of the buildings. It is filled with things that if you mention them you are a conspiracy nutcase moonman.

 

 

This is a good one also and has much of the same:

 

 

Excerpts:

 

 

 

 

 

Building 7 had 52 million pounds of steel in it and was not hit by a plane. FEMA's report into this said they were not sure why it collapsed and that more research needed to be done. These documents are publically available on the internet.

 

NIST was turned to later to do research and here are sections from their report (again, this is public information made available by the government, not some crap from a weird conspiracy site) :

 

 

 

 

A huge attack takes place and a 26,000 ton steel building NOT hit by a plane collapses and THEY DON'T SAVE ONE PIECE OF IT?!? It was quickly sent away and recycled. Does this prove a giant conspiracy? No, but at the least we know some morons were in charge of part of the investigation and they owe the public an explanation.

 

 

Within hours they were showing pictures and names of the hijackers. Did they just randomly pick Arabs that were on the planes? No, US intelligence already had files on at least some of these men. They knew they had connections to Bin Laden but apparantly they had no problem with them being in the USA. How closely were they tracking them? Did they know some of them were taking flying lessons? Republican Congressman Curt Weldon is one of the few brave enough to have asked these questions a few months ago. The only explanation I've seen given says The FBI, CIA and NSA were having communication issues.

 

Once again, this is all in mainstream news articles, not websites that think a giant squid flew into the Pentagon. But most Americans are more concerned with American Idol.

[chaosrage 0]

 

Seek help.

[Guest wildpegasus]

 

Seek help.

 

That's not a very strong arguement as it has no merit to it and is an easy out for the person saying it. Better to defend your posistion with more than a 2 word "setence" as it makes your response to wahoo look weak.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I don't get why everyone's screaming now about the building materials being recycled. What were they supposed to do? Leave it so more toxic dust and stuff could fly into the air and make people sick?

[snuffbox 0]

They shouldve built the World Trade out of passports.

[2GOLD 0]

I don't get why everyone's screaming now about the building materials being recycled. What were they supposed to do? Leave it so more toxic dust and stuff could fly into the air and make people sick?

 

You recycle, people bitch. You don't recycle, people bitch. Damn people need to just admit they want to bitch and save us all the 10000 news stories.

[Gary Floyd 0]

wahoo, you need to give it up. Go post on Democratic Underground, I'm sure they'll buy all your shitty conspiracy theroies over there.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Because government and people in politics and power never lie or do anything decietful. They always tell the 100 percent truth on all matters all of the time. We can believe everything they say and they won't even put a slant on it.

 

I don't know if it's because you guys are young, naive or inexperienced with life but man if you can't admit that there is something at least suspect here than you're to put it bluntly just totally blind.

Now I don't know what happened that day just like everyone else but if you think for a second that A)the government won't kill its own people for some other purpose or B)They are being 100% truthful than you are worse off than all the crazy conspiracy theory people out there that you so vehemently demise.

 

To make a sports or politics comparison here -- This is what I see partly happening here. People get behind a group or sports team for whatever reason. They than get attached to said team or politicial group more and more as time goes by. This is happening a lot here with the "I believe everything government does" group fueled in part from the disgust they have with the conspiracists. However, it's making them blind to all possibilites and coming back with the "You're just stupid and crazy" line is just making them look like the stupid ones.

 

Now let me repeat myself yet again. I don't know what happened that day but common sense dictates that there is something wrong somewhere and we are being lied to in some kind of form. I can't understand why people suddenly trust the government completely on a matter that has so much ramnifications. If they lie on everything else than why wouldn't they lie at least some on this as well? If you're going to lie than this is the type of thing you lie on because the reprucussions are huge. Since when have we ever trusted government to be always honest? Yeah, I suppose they only have good intentions in Iraq as well.

[Guest wahoo]

Seek help.

wahoo, you need to give it up. Go post on Democratic Underground, I'm sure they'll buy all your shitty conspiracy theroies over there.

 

Are you people trying to inject some weird sense of humor or are you just unable to read clearly? What part of my last post has anything to do with a conspiracy theory or isn't 100% fact?

 

I give you quotes and info from people that were in the buildings and I give you info from the government themselves that is available at .gov sites. They have admitted that Intelligence Agency mistakes were made and they have made many changes since then. If you somehow see conspiracy theories by me passing that information along, then who is the one that needs mental help?

 

about the building materials being recycled. What were they supposed to do? Leave it so more toxic dust and stuff could fly into the air and make people sick?

 

If a hooker gets murdered in a crack house they are still going to gather up and store items. I believe some steel from the main two towers was kept in storage for research, but for whatever reason building 7 was not.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Someone should read Popular Mechanics.

 

I'm sorry, but either this government is the greatest two-faced most brilliant and evil entity out there

 

or its just wholly incompetent when it comes to wars, feeding the poor, taxing us, and yes, preventing terrorism.

 

I think I'll believe that the government is just completely incompetent.

 

There have been many instances where conspiracy theorists have quoted people out of context or use people's "description of what it was like" to be the literal truth.

 

There was no conspiracy. Two planes hit the towers. A plane hit the pentagon. People lost loved ones.

 

Please take your whackjob theories elsewhere. You're doing a disservice to liberals everywhere

 

(yeah, I said it)