Don't believe the hype

[Guest wildpegasus]

Because he doesn't and you'd be hard-pressed to present a feasible argument that would suggest otherwise?

 

 

Angle's matches are more dramatic and his charactor of a kickbutt machine is better than Samoa Joe's. He's also better at exhibiting passion.

 

I'm not a big fan of generalising though. I like to look at matches more individually.

[Guest Coffey]

I don't know how many of these guys are considered good by the IWC but I certainly don't like the following:

• Michael Shane a.k.a. Matt Bentley
• Frankie Kazarian
• The Amazing Red
• The Briscoe Brothers (Jay & Mark)
• Azrieal
• Chris Sabin
• Sonjay Dutt
• Elix Skipper
• Shannon Moore
• Claudio Castagnoli
• Kevin Steen
• Chad Collyer
• Rickey Reyes
• Ace Steel
• B.J. Whitmer
• Xavier

Angle's matches are more dramatic and his charactor of a kickbutt machine is better than Samoa Joe's. He's also better at exhibiting passion.

Stop posting.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Of Coffey's list, the only one I can really disagree with is Michael Shane/Matt Bentley. I think that if he was booked as a true heel, Bentlet could be something special.

[Hawk 34 0]

Because he doesn't and you'd be hard-pressed to present a feasible argument that would suggest otherwise?

 

 

Angle's matches are more dramatic and his charactor of a kickbutt machine is better than Samoa Joe's. He's also better at exhibiting passion.

 

I'm not a big fan of generalising though. I like to look at matches more individually.

 

If, dramatic means "shitty acting", then yes Angle beats Joe at that. Joe's most dramatic matches would probably be his final two installments against Punk and his M.E.R showdown with Danielson. Both were excellent cases of dramatic design. Angle believes by screaming and pulling down the straps creates a sense of a more dramatic match-up.

 

It doesn't.

[Guest Coffey]

Of Coffey's list, the only one I can really disagree with is Michael Shane/Matt Bentley. I think that if he was booked as a true heel, Bentlet could be something special.

Honestly, I almost left him off the list because I think he does have potential. He seems like he'd be SO EASY to hate but he's booked as a face and is escorted by huge juggs to the ring and those stupid fucking Orlando fans do the "Bentley bounce" and it's just all so terrible.

 

Instead of trying to make him "HBK's cousin, watch me do this superkick and elbow" TNA should give him his own gimmick. Give him some mic time, let him turn on Traci, anything that'll get him some heat. He's a better wrestler than guys like Amazing Red because he's not just a complete spot monkey, and he's entertained me before like his Ladder match with Paul London in ROH, but recently, he's just not doing anything for me. He's in serious need of a tune-up but time is already so limited in TNA, I don't see it happening.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Because he doesn't and you'd be hard-pressed to present a feasible argument that would suggest otherwise?

 

 

Angle's matches are more dramatic and his charactor of a kickbutt machine is better than Samoa Joe's. He's also better at exhibiting passion.

 

I'm not a big fan of generalising though. I like to look at matches more individually.

 

If, dramatic means "shitty acting", then yes Angle beats Joe at that. Joe's most dramatic matches would probably be his final two installments against Punk and his M.E.R showdown with Danielson. Both were excellent cases of dramatic design. Angle believes by screaming and pulling down the straps creates a sense of a more dramatic match-up.

 

It doesn't.

 

Angle vs Michaels vs Mania was 30 times more dramatic than Joe vs Punk II which I did not feel one ounce of drama from. I was pumping my fists up in the air and verbally expressing my feelings at Mania. With Joe vs Punk I couldn't wait for it to be over because it bored me to tears and I am someone who can and has watched matches that were so bad they would make everyone here run away in terror.

Now I know the goals in each match weren't the same so it's not a fair comparison or anything but still it speaks volumes. Angle's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but man he can have great matches that pull you onto the edge of your seat.

 

Joe vs Dragon I don't know about but I'd like to see it.

[Hawk 34 0]

Because he doesn't and you'd be hard-pressed to present a feasible argument that would suggest otherwise?

 

 

Angle's matches are more dramatic and his charactor of a kickbutt machine is better than Samoa Joe's. He's also better at exhibiting passion.

 

I'm not a big fan of generalising though. I like to look at matches more individually.

 

If, dramatic means "shitty acting", then yes Angle beats Joe at that. Joe's most dramatic matches would probably be his final two installments against Punk and his M.E.R showdown with Danielson. Both were excellent cases of dramatic design. Angle believes by screaming and pulling down the straps creates a sense of a more dramatic match-up.

 

It doesn't.

Angle vs Michaels vs Mania was 30 times more dramatic than Joe vs Punk II which I did not feel one ounce of drama from. I was pumping my fists up in the air and verbally expressing my feelings at Mania. With Joe vs Punk I couldn't wait for it to be over because it bored me to tears and I am someone who can and has watched matches that were so bad they would make everyone here run away in terror.

Now I know the goals in each match weren't the same so it's not a fair comparison or anything but still it speaks volumes. Angle's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but man he can have great matches that pull you onto the edge of your seat.

 

Joe vs Dragon I don't know about but I'd like to see it.

 

That's because you are a complete mark for Angle. You are willing to fall for the belief that that spank-off was dramatic. You know why it was for you? They did the right spots but there was no story. Yet, you incorporated the spots to indicate that there was some resemblence to an actual story.

 

I knew you would try to make the argument that WM21 was better then JvP II or III. No one ever said anything about JvP I, which no claims it to be a perfect match.

 

Joe/Danielson, is accessible. You'll probably enjoy but you'll rather keep with the pretense that Angle > Joe. You'll try to make an arguement that Benoit/Angle RR03 was better, even if it wasn't.

 

Angle doesn't have those great matches that keeps you on the edge of your seat. That's your fan-dom coming into play and that's his purpose but to use his ability to mainipulate contrived spots into convincing you that he is better the Samoa Joe, who completely shuts Angle down in every department inside that ring.

 

Angle is a great performer but he isn't at Joe's level as a worker.

[Guest Coffey]

I'm sure you watched the build-up to Angle/Michaels and not the build-up to Joe/Punk too. You have a better knowledge and history of the WWE characters because you can see them upto four or five times a week. You can't say the same about the wrestlers on the indies the majority of the time.

 

P.S. You're a mark.

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

Giys, chill, there's no need to be insulting here. I can't begin to argue about Samoa Joe and Kurt myself, I haven't seen enough Joe, but if a person enjoys Angle's work, perhaps because he's been able to build up a long term appreciation, just like you have for Joe, then so be it. No need to be hostile. Really, it's a man's opinion. Heck, I think Austin was a terrible wrestler, at least in the '99 and onward matches I saw him in, and yet people conisistantly say he's a Hall of Famer, while I don't see the appeal. I don't go around tearing him apart in every thread and calling everyone an idiot. Besides, giving intelligent, well thought out responses(which we're getting to, it looks like) are much more likely to convince someone than "You're a mark." Excuse me for sounding preachy, but I dunno, it just seems like there's a lot of unnecessary hostility on the board of late

[Guest wildpegasus]

Because he doesn't and you'd be hard-pressed to present a feasible argument that would suggest otherwise?

 

 

Angle's matches are more dramatic and his charactor of a kickbutt machine is better than Samoa Joe's. He's also better at exhibiting passion.

 

I'm not a big fan of generalising though. I like to look at matches more individually.

 

If, dramatic means "shitty acting", then yes Angle beats Joe at that. Joe's most dramatic matches would probably be his final two installments against Punk and his M.E.R showdown with Danielson. Both were excellent cases of dramatic design. Angle believes by screaming and pulling down the straps creates a sense of a more dramatic match-up.

 

It doesn't.

Angle vs Michaels vs Mania was 30 times more dramatic than Joe vs Punk II which I did not feel one ounce of drama from. I was pumping my fists up in the air and verbally expressing my feelings at Mania. With Joe vs Punk I couldn't wait for it to be over because it bored me to tears and I am someone who can and has watched matches that were so bad they would make everyone here run away in terror.

Now I know the goals in each match weren't the same so it's not a fair comparison or anything but still it speaks volumes. Angle's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but man he can have great matches that pull you onto the edge of your seat.

 

Joe vs Dragon I don't know about but I'd like to see it.

 

That's because you are a complete mark for Angle. You are willing to fall for the belief that that spank-off was dramatic. You know why it was for you? They did the right spots but there was no story. Yet, you incorporated the spots to indicate that there was some resemblence to an actual story.

 

I knew you would try to make the argument that WM21 was better then JvP II or III. No one ever said anything about JvP I, which no claims it to be a perfect match.

 

Joe/Danielson, is accessible. You'll probably enjoy but you'll rather keep with the pretense that Angle > Joe. You'll try to make an arguement that Benoit/Angle RR03 was better, even if it wasn't.

 

Angle doesn't have those great matches that keeps you on the edge of your seat. That's your fan-dom coming into play and that's his purpose but to use his ability to mainipulate contrived spots into convincing you that he is better the Samoa Joe, who completely shuts Angle down in every department inside that ring.

 

Angle is a great performer but he isn't at Joe's level as a worker.

 

NO,no, no and no though I'm not quite sure what you're saying in some of your statements. Please clarify them a little better if you don't mind.

 

 

It's not my fandom coming into play. I have watched wrestling for over 16 years as a hardcore fan. I have watched AJPW, NJPW, Stampede, WCW, NWA, some Memphis, UWFI, Pancrase, ECW, WWF/WWE, ROH, FMW, AJW, JWP, Michinoku Pro, Battlearts, a ton of indy leagues, AAA, British wrestling, CMLL and the list goes on and on.

 

In that time "I have seen it all". I know what it's like to see something for the first time, what it's like to see something for the millionth time and how my emotions/feelings on a match connect with what's going on in the ring. I also think I have a good grasp on how the crowd connets with the matches as well. Actually, this is one of the reasons why I can see through several of the overrated ROH matches.

 

Joe/Danielson, is accessible. You'll probably enjoy but you'll rather keep with the pretense that Angle > Joe. You'll try to make an arguement that Benoit/Angle RR03 was better, even if it wasn't.

 

Well, it'll be extreamly tough to beat. We'll see.

 

Where can I get the match at? I'm also looking for Noble vs Dragon.

 

 

Angle doesn't have those great matches that keeps you on the edge of your seat. That's your fan-dom coming into play and that's his purpose but to use his ability to mainipulate contrived spots into convincing you that he is better the Samoa Joe, who completely shuts Angle down in every department inside that ring.

 

I'm not sure what you're saying in the second setence either so can you please clarify it better? I do understand the first one though. If Angle doesn't have these great matches that keep me on the edge of my seat than was it just me imagining myself doing so with Benoit vs Angle, Benoit/Angle vs Rey/Edge, Angle vs Edge, Angle vs Austin and Angle vs Michaels (just Mania because they went downhill after that; never did watch their second match). Was it me just imagining myself doing so while rewatching the same matches again? Just because you either refuse to see why they're dramatic or don't understand why they can be dramatic to some people doesn't mean they're not.

[Hawk 34 0]

You can get Gibson/Danielson and Danielson/Joe at ROHwrestling.com.

[Guest wildpegasus]

You can get Gibson/Danielson and Danielson/Joe at ROHwrestling.com.

 

I can't afford to buy them.

[Hawk 34 0]

You can get Gibson/Danielson and Danielson/Joe at ROHwrestling.com.

 

I can't afford to buy them.

 

You can obtain GBHIV (Gibson/Dragon) for $10 bucks (tape). It's a double tape.

 

However, M.E.R isn't on VHS anymore, but it's $20 on DVD right now, but keep you eye open because ROH usually has a bi-monthly $10 DVD sale for select DVD's and you can probably get M.E.R for $10 bucks.

 

Ebay and other tape trade sites probably have them avaiable for the same price or maybe cheaper. The point? At most, there's no excuse to not drop $10 bucks down for Gibson/Dragon. However, GBHIV is a one match show.

 

You should also be look for the Roderick Strong/Danielson matches as well, Strong/Danielson II was even better then Gibson/Danielson. Good news about that? Strong/Dragon, I have seen on Youtube.

[Guest wildpegasus]

You can get Gibson/Danielson and Danielson/Joe at ROHwrestling.com.

 

I can't afford to buy them.

 

You can obtain GBHIV (Gibson/Dragon) for $10 bucks (tape). It's a double tape.

 

However, M.E.R isn't on VHS anymore, but it's $20 on DVD right now, but keep you eye open because ROH usually has a bi-monthly $10 DVD sale for select DVD's and you can probably get M.E.R for $10 bucks.

 

Ebay and other tape trade sites probably have them avaiable for the same price or maybe cheaper. The point? At most, there's no excuse to not drop $10 bucks down for Gibson/Dragon. However, GBHIV is a one match show.

 

You should also be look for the Roderick Strong/Danielson matches as well, Strong/Danielson II was even better then Gibson/Danielson. Good news about that? Strong/Dragon, I have seen on Youtube.

 

Still too expensive for me though. $10 turns into more with the exchange and on top of that you got the money order which is a few bucks plus a stamp ($1) so it's almost $20 for me. I've had to cut down on my tape buying - I've discovered women. That and I have no money!

[Hawk 34 0]

You can get Gibson/Danielson and Danielson/Joe at ROHwrestling.com.

 

I can't afford to buy them.

 

You can obtain GBHIV (Gibson/Dragon) for $10 bucks (tape). It's a double tape.

 

However, M.E.R isn't on VHS anymore, but it's $20 on DVD right now, but keep you eye open because ROH usually has a bi-monthly $10 DVD sale for select DVD's and you can probably get M.E.R for $10 bucks.

 

Ebay and other tape trade sites probably have them avaiable for the same price or maybe cheaper. The point? At most, there's no excuse to not drop $10 bucks down for Gibson/Dragon. However, GBHIV is a one match show.

 

You should also be look for the Roderick Strong/Danielson matches as well, Strong/Danielson II was even better then Gibson/Danielson. Good news about that? Strong/Dragon, I have seen on Youtube.

 

Still too expensive for me though. $10 turns into more with the exchange and on top of that you got the money order which is a few bucks plus a stamp ($1) so it's almost $20 for me. I've had to cut down on my tape buying - I've discovered women. That and I have no money!

 

Lay off the strip clubs. It's really not getting you anywhere. Just buy those tapes. At least Gibson/Danielson's work is real, the stripper's act isn't.

[Just John 0]

Did you just say a wrestling match was real?

[Hawk 34 0]

Did you just say a wrestling match was real?

 

More real then anything WP has ever said.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Did you just say a wrestling match was real?

 

More real then anything WP has ever said.

 

You're not saving face by putting the focus on me You got owned buddy!

 

 

I unfortuantely haven't been to a club since October despite at least one of the strippers hitting on me. I did discover though that lap dances >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrestling tapes and anything else for that matter. I know where my money goes to now. I can't wait to go back again.

[Bruce Blank 0]

Because he doesn't and you'd be hard-pressed to present a feasible argument that would suggest otherwise?

Pot, kettle, black

 

Since your arguments for him being able to have good matches with a variety of big guys is to list guys that are not considered big.

[Cuban Linx 0]

Joe had a good match with Tank. He's certainly a big guy, and not really considered a 'good wrestler' either. Brad Bradley's a big guy, Joe had probably the two best matches of Bradley's career with him. I can't really remember the Joe/Abyss matches, but they were at least decent to good.

 

Joe might not have a huge list of good matches vs big opponents (which isn't really Joe's fault since the indies are 99% cruiserweights), but i can't think of any that were bad either.

[King Cucaracha 0]

You see, I thought this would have morphed into the TSM staple "ANGLE -VS- JOE" by Page 1. You guys are slipping.

 

 

Bruce, Joe's what do you class as 'bigger' guys exactly? As listed above, Tank is 350lbs or so, Bradley is about 280lbs, Abyss is roughly 300lbs. Chris Hero would count as a 'bigger' guy in my book and he's had some very good matches with him. His stuff with Necro could certainly be considered 'entertaining' and Necro's no small guy. So, including Kobashi, you have 6. You could argue for BJ Whitmer and Dan Maff matches too, I guess.

 

Joe doesn't face a lot of big guys because TNA are giving him the monster push and everyone likes to book him to his strengths, which are matches against bigger guys.

 

 

Pegasus, comparing emotion of a Wrestlemania dream match to a ROH dream match is the worst comparison you can make. They're on such different scales it's ridiculous. You're comparing a match at the biggest show of the year, for drama, with an indy show match, with completely different sizes and types of crowd and atmosphere. It's not an accurate comparison.

[World's Worst Man 0]

You see, I thought this would have morphed into the TSM staple "ANGLE -VS- JOE" by Page 1. You guys are slipping.

 

 

Bruce, Joe's what do you class as 'bigger' guys exactly? As listed above, Tank is 350lbs or so, Bradley is about 280lbs, Abyss is roughly 300lbs. Chris Hero would count as a 'bigger' guy in my book and he's had some very good matches with him. His stuff with Necro could certainly be considered 'entertaining' and Necro's no small guy. So, including Kobashi, you have 6. You could argue for BJ Whitmer and Dan Maff matches too, I guess.

 

Not to mention a guy like Homicide or Danielson don't exactly wrestle like "smaller guys". Even Punk doesn't wrestle like the guy's Joe has been facing in TNA, although Punk does bump around a bit. But OH NOES! Joe can't work with a guy who wouldn't bump much!!!! If a guy can't bump much, what must the matches have a lot of? Strikes. Who has some of the best striking offense in the business? If Joe is facing a bigger guy and needs to play the underdog, what does that require? Selling. Who knows when and how to sell? Does this make logic? But shit, Joe's only had one excellent match against a big heavyweight. That's only one match!! He clearly needs a small bump machine to have a good match, despite the fact that he's shown in many matches that he has tools that are useful against any opponent.

[Bruce Blank 0]

one last observation and then I'm done with this thread forever

 

Man don't ever DARE say that you just don't "get" one of your favorites huh? cause boy do you go on and on like a broken record - an annoying one by like Hanson or something.

 

I still don't see "Mega talent" in Samoa Joe and your rantings haven't really changed that, just made me remember to skip your posts in the future.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Translation - I'm unable to respond to any of your points, but j00r a fanboy, so I'm done!!!!

 

Congrats, you're the 3rd person on my ignore list.

[bob_barron 0]

one last observation and then I'm done with this thread forever

 

Man don't ever DARE say that you just don't "get" one of your favorites huh? cause boy do you go on and on like a broken record - an annoying one by like Hanson or something.

 

I still don't see "Mega talent" in Samoa Joe and your rantings haven't really changed that, just made me remember to skip your posts in the future.

 

So your argument is: I don't like Joe....because I don't?

 

Congrats, you're the 3rd person on my ignore list.

 

Don't turn into HTQ.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Don't turn into HTQ.

 

Well in my defense, I have a pretty long leash in general, but certain things I really have no patience for

[JST 0]

Nice can of worms I've opened there on the Joe discussion.

[Guest Rrrsh]

AJ Styles is whats wrong with Indy wrestling today. He is the equivalent to HHH (for obvious different reasons)

Could you please clarify that a tad?

 

He is a fucking Gymnist with no sense of storytelling, phycology or long term selling. His matches look like choreographed dance, not wrestling. And since he is a major player in the Indys, he heavy influences peopel who follow him. The biggest problem with the Indyz are lack of storytelling and too much no-selling. And that because of AJ Styles influence

 

Whats wrong with the WWE is that the Mian Event is stale and boring. And that cuz of HHH's ego.

Maybe I'm just an ignorant fool, but unless you mean by storytelling something like "overcoming the odds" I have trouble seeing a story in a match. Most of his moves, though, do work on the head, which is part of what he wants to set up the Styles Clash. He isn't a technician, so he keeps a fast pace most of the time time on offense, which is good as far as I'm concerned. He wrestles a cruiserweight style, for God's sake. I've never noticed his spots looking contrived. He just has trademark moves like everyone, the Pele and the like. He strikes me as just as fluid and spontaneous as a Bret Hart or a Ric Flair in the ring. But maybe it's just me. If I could ask a question, do you like the high flying style at all, and if you do, give me an example or two of who you like. Maybe I can see your point then.

 

The Styles Clash has impact on the chest, #1. I always notice his spots looking contrived, so we differ there. Ditto with your bret Hart and Ric Flair comment. Rey mysterio matches look like they could happen in a sense is that it doesnt look like before hand they planned where guys stand and such. Try and watch a Stryles match and never say to yourself, "wow, great luck for AJ the guy just happened to be there" or "man, its like he knew he woudl end up there". I never watch a match of his and think its legitamite.

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

AJ Styles is whats wrong with Indy wrestling today. He is the equivalent to HHH (for obvious different reasons)

Could you please clarify that a tad?

 

He is a fucking Gymnist with no sense of storytelling, phycology or long term selling. His matches look like choreographed dance, not wrestling. And since he is a major player in the Indys, he heavy influences peopel who follow him. The biggest problem with the Indyz are lack of storytelling and too much no-selling. And that because of AJ Styles influence

 

Whats wrong with the WWE is that the Mian Event is stale and boring. And that cuz of HHH's ego.

Maybe I'm just an ignorant fool, but unless you mean by storytelling something like "overcoming the odds" I have trouble seeing a story in a match. Most of his moves, though, do work on the head, which is part of what he wants to set up the Styles Clash. He isn't a technician, so he keeps a fast pace most of the time time on offense, which is good as far as I'm concerned. He wrestles a cruiserweight style, for God's sake. I've never noticed his spots looking contrived. He just has trademark moves like everyone, the Pele and the like. He strikes me as just as fluid and spontaneous as a Bret Hart or a Ric Flair in the ring. But maybe it's just me. If I could ask a question, do you like the high flying style at all, and if you do, give me an example or two of who you like. Maybe I can see your point then.

 

The Styles Clash has impact on the chest, #1. I always notice his spots looking contrived, so we differ there. Ditto with your bret Hart and Ric Flair comment. Rey mysterio matches look like they could happen in a sense is that it doesnt look like before hand they planned where guys stand and such. Try and watch a Stryles match and never say to yourself, "wow, great luck for AJ the guy just happened to be there" or "man, its like he knew he woudl end up there". I never watch a match of his and think its legitamite.

I'd say face and chest on the Clash, but fair enough. I guess we just see it differantly, so I'm willing to agree to diagree. But I have to ask you about Bret there. You think his spots look contrived? I always see him as this consumate ring technician who goes in knowing what he wants to do to a guy, so he hits his 5 moves of doom to take them out, but maybe I'm seeing it wrong

[Guest Coffey]

Rey Mysterio matches look like they could happen in the sense that it doesnt look like they plan where guys stand and such.

Have you SEEN the 6-1-9?