The Super pre-SNME Thread

[Guest]

Also, if you want to see just how sad it is for the WWE to be on at a prime time slot now... just look at the ads during the shows course. Larry the Cable Guy's movie and the Ultimate Scrubber for $19.95. This is supposed to be primetime network TV.

Oh yes. KCAL9 sells better ads during their newscasts from 8-11 every night. Can anyone explain why JR was doing commentary, because I have no fucking clue.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Because they don't have any faith in Joey Styles or Michael Cole to sell their biggest show of year to the largest audience they could get.

 

And JR was really working out there to get his job back. The effort he put in getting HHH over, it was admirable in a incredibly pathetic sorta way. "The King of Kings. The Emperor of Ending Careers. The Sultan of Psychology. The Czar that's above Par. The Ceasar of the Sledgehammer. The Royal Highness of having sex with many beautiful women and wearing expensive clothing and holding the world title a lot".

[The Niggardly King 0]

Well, it was good to hear how over the top he was tonight.

 

"Vince McMahon has castrated Shawn Michaels of his dignity!" "These two tortured souls who walk through the valley of the shadow of death shall be smoted by the lion-hearted paragon of righteousness Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania!"

[Guest]

Because they don't have any faith in Joey Styles or Michael Cole to sell their biggest show of year to the largest audience they could get.

Storyline reason? That was a surprise to hear his voice, and I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.

[Guest Dam(o)nYankees]

Oh, and a note to Styles or whomever happens to be in his ear. Screaming "WHAT AN OVATION" when John Cena comes out does not in fact fool the viewing audience into think that loud booing noise is cheers. In fact, in draws attention to the boos.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

There is no storyline reason. Apparently, cause I didn't see it, Vince said on RAW that he was bringing back JR for SNME and said it like it was supposed to get a pop.

[JimmyHendricks 0]

And after almost 10 years Vince still doesn't get why Survivor Series 1997 worked. Why people were interested in it. Why it captured our imaginations and our emotions. It's hilarious to see someone try to recreate something again and again and again and see it not work but then still tries to do it again and again and again because it worked that one time.

 

Which is exactly why we've had Vince vs. Hogan, Vince vs. Shawn, Bischoff vs. Cena, Bischoff vs. ECW, etc., etc., etc.

 

I truly feel sometimes that Vince believes that the next wrestling boom is right around the corner, and doesn't want to change the format because he's afraid the audience won't stick around.

 

Things will never get better until they stop grabbing the roster by the nutsack. Everything is too controlled, and you'll never have a breakout star like Austin or Rock if you have some former "Ellen" writer scripting their promos for them.

 

Oh yeah. The "Evil Mr. McMahon" character got old in 2001. However, Vince's ego states that anyone vs. Vince is instantly the hottest thing on the whole show. Too bad they can't realize we all got tired of it after Austin vs. McMahon ended.

[Guest]

There is no storyline reason. Apparently, cause I didn't see it, Vince said on RAW that he was bringing back JR for SNME and said it like it was supposed to get a pop.

That makes WWE sense. I'm assuming that nobody cared.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Did they even acknowledge the boos for Cena tonight? You'd think someone who was unfamiliar would be kinda wonderin why a guy they are trying to say is a good guy is getting boo'd by the audience.

[The Niggardly King 0]

"I'm bringing back an old faithful member of the KMAC to call your match, Shane.... and it's good ol' JR!!!"

 

 

It was something like that.

[JimmyHendricks 0]

And I actually liked hearing J.R. tonight. Styles sounds like some generic, paint by numbers announcer being told what to say. Oh wait.....

 

I wouldn't mind J.R. and his "Bah GAWD SON of a BITCH!!" commentary every week if his voice wasn't so deteriorated. He always sounds like he needs to clear his throat. I don't mean to be insulting, I know he's had health issues, but sometimes it's really annoying.

[Angle-plex 0]

This is the first period of time ever in wrestling that I don't have at least one guy that I want to see each show. Not one. Maybe RVD, but he's been the same since arriving in '01.

[The Niggardly King 0]

My one guy to watch at the moment would be Mark Henry

[JimmyHendricks 0]

Honestly, what is the reasoning for putting Henry out there against Undertaker? Did they need someone who might seem like a threat to the marks or something? Hell, Orton's 1/4 the size of Henry and I really DID think he would win last year.

 

Don't they realize that everyone knows how all of this will end? It's King Kong Bundy at WM 11 all over again. I've said before that Undertaker is just put on the WM card so he can win, the announcers can talk about him being 12-0, 13-0, 23-0, whatever, and the legend continues. Rarely has he ever seemed threatened.

[Guest Dam(o)nYankees]

Did they even acknowledge the boos for Cena tonight? You'd think someone who was unfamiliar would be kinda wonderin why a guy they are trying to say is a good guy is getting boo'd by the audience.

I think Cena "blew the roof off the place" or some such nonsense

[Angle-plex 0]

And judging from the video package, the Vince/Shawn feud exists because Shawn is happier than Vince, so Vince wants Shawn to die. Although seeing the McMahons get the best of Shawn week after week after week is getting unintentionally hilarious.

[Guest Dam(o)nYankees]

I thought they were feuding because Shawn wouldnt buy coke from Vince

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I thought it was because Shawn wouldn't get a hair cut.

[Angle-plex 0]

But can the former multiple time champion beat the sixty year old man with bad knees? Should I buy WrestleMania to find out?

[The Niggardly King 0]

What do you think would happen if Vince has another Rumble like moment at Mania? Like during his entrance, he gets ready to get into the ring... and.... bam, he tears something.

[Guest Dam(o)nYankees]

But can the former multiple time champion beat the sixty year old man with bad knees? Should I buy WrestleMania to find out?

He couldn't beat the fat guy who runs the internet. Will this affect him? Plop down 50 bucks to find out?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

"Mommy, why is Daddy and Grampa beating up that skinny old man?"

[humanoid92 0]

The whole promotion is screwed up bigtime.

 

It's funny how before WCW started to go down the shitter, the WWF NEVER acknowledged its own past, but all they've done for the last five years is focus on their history. There's got to be a happy medium here. I don't understand this philosophy of creating a product that's more or less an homage to the past but happens to be set in the current day. Wrestling has always been about progress and finding the "new big thing." Not rehashing past eras. I hate it when people talk about "dream matches." What the hell? Austin vs. Goldberg would have been fine in '99. It's 2006, people. Who really needs to see it now? Austin vs. Hogan? No! Hogan was popular in the 80s, Austin was popular in the 90s. Great. What does it have to do with anything? Wrestling is not supposed to operate that way. Guys should not be feuding because one was popular during -time period x- and one was popular during -time period y-.

 

Look at it this way. Yeah, business sucked in the mid 90s. But had Randy Savage not been under contract to WCW, would the WWF have brought him back for Wrestlemania 13 to put him in a "dream match" with Shawn Michaels? How about bringing Harley Race back to wrestle the Undertaker at Wrestlemania XI? Would this have ever happened in a million years? Of course the business was different then because Vince had competition, but the objective was always to get new people over. Maybe business sucked, but they focused on the PRESENT instead of the past, and something FINALLY clicked with Austin, and clicked big. It's all about evolution. The WWE has not evolved since 2001. Business may have been down in 1992-1996, but that whole time they still EVOLVED. Turn on Raw today and it's the same shit from four years ago, starring guys from 5-10 years ago (and beyond).

 

Another thing: Mick Foley should not be on TV. Aside from barely being able to walk, he has no rub left to give. If Edge beats him, it means nothing. And that whole feud is a prime example of what's wrong with this company's mentality.

 

Look at the show. There are never any real issues. Nobody is feuding over anything tangible. Foley/Edge makes NO sense: "I'm a better transitional champion than you." What the fuck is that?? That phrase never should have been used on television. Vince/HBK and HHH/Cena make NO sense either. It's like everybody is fighting over their status or their place on the card and their place in history instead of an actual reason. It's one big confusing mix of status and nostalgia. It's like a show within a show, and that vibe does not work for wrestling.

 

During the video package for the HBK/Vince feud tonight, there were a million audio clips from JR and Shawn himself, describing Shawn's place in history. "The showstopper. The icon. The main event. The most decorated Champion in history. The most legendary superstar." Blah, blah, blah. Listen to all the adjectives used to describe HBK, HHH, Undertaker, Austin, or any "legend" that comes back for an appearance. It's all the same shit. We get it- there are legends that have accomplished a lot in this business and somehow they're all still around in some fashion. When HHH, HBK, Flair, and Undertaker (and to some degree Angle) are gone, they're going to be in even worse shape. They haven't built anyone up that can replace them in the eyes of the fans. When Austin was catching on, they had the established guys like Bret and Shawn and then Taker to put him over huge. The Rock, in turn, had Foley and Austin to put him over huge. Foley and Rock made HHH. HHH easily could have made Jericho or Angle or maybe even RVD. He never did. And with Foley, Rock, and Austin all gone, he was the guy that had to do it at some point. But that's never happened. I don't care how many times he jobbed to Batista or Benoit- he didn't MAKE anyone. He's still the top guy no matter what and everyone knows it.

 

And the worst part is, in 2, 3, 5 years, where do they go for new talent? There are no other promotions that are giving other wrestlers instant credibility. There are no more big free agents. Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, and Mysterio aren't going to show up on your doorstep and give you that depth to the roster. Territories are of course long dead. Because there's no competition they HAVE to make their own stars, and they're failing at that. The last guy they truly created was Angle and that was 7 years ago.

 

I'll give them credit for trying with the likes of Cena, Batista, and Orton. But even those situations were screwed up from the start. That's a whole other thread, but the bottom line is it hasn't been done properly and the fans don't give a shit.

 

Not only is the formula of the shows stagnant, as you guys have touched on, but look at the roster itself. It's ridiculously stale. We don't realize this but think about it. Look at the midcard and above in the 80s and early 90s. DiBiase's singles run lasted 4 years. Jake was around for 6. Perfect for 4. Beefcake about 5. Honky for 3. Santana for 6 or so before he came irrelevant. Savage and Hogan were around for 8-9 years. Back then, they got what they could out of the midcarders, and when they ran their course they moved on. Bret Hart's entire singles run lasted 6 years. So did Shawn's original run. Look at the WWE roster today. HHH won his first Title SEVEN years ago, and he's showing no signs of slowing down. Kane has been around for EIGHT years. Big Show for seven. Bradshaw, Edge, Hardy, Benoit, Angle... I'm not even getting into the Undertaker here. And look at the amount of exposure today compared to back then. Weekly TV (twice-weekly from 99-02) and 12-16 PPVs per year. 5 years these days is like 10 back then with all that happens. There's only so much you can do with a wrestler before there's nowhere else to go; that's why Show and Kane are where they are right now. In the territory days, you'd go somewhere for a few months, get built up, do your big program and leave. It's that simple. There's only so many guys that can be on top at once, so eventually there's nowhere to go but down. Benoit had his run with the Title, but now what? There's nowhere else to go but down and he's gonna look like a shmuck because he used to be the Champ but now he's nowhere near the main event. He's already peaked.

 

And once you've peaked in wrestling, it's over. Austin peaked, and rode that popularity for a long time, but when it started to slip he was gone. It's a good thing he left when he did because what would the alternatives have been? Either you keep the guy on top, which will inevitably get stale after years and years, or you demote him down the card and he looks like a loser because he's not the same guy on top anymore. Same deal with the Rock. He wasn't even 30, had been a main eventer for 4 years, and had won the Title who knows how many times. Where else do you go with that? Well, the WWE has waaaay too many guys that have already peaked. There's nowhere to go with them. The entire roster is either guys who have peaked (HHH, Kane, Show, etc.), "legends" (Shawn, Undertaker, for awhile it was Goldberg and the occasional Austin, Foley, Hogan, Rock appearances), guys whose big chances have slipped by and will never recover (RVD, Booker, soon to be Edge and Rey... Jericho fell under this category as well), guys that are pushed but aren't very over because in this environment there's no good way to get them over (Carlito, Masters, Benjamin, etc.) and guys that we aren't given a reason to care about at all.

 

And those are major reasons why the product sucks, aside from the general crappy booking. Overexposure, a stale roster, the show-within-a-show complex, this constant nostalgia kick, and the unwillingness to commit to the future and find the right guys to do it with.

 

All that, and we didn't even touch the issues of:

- The show is way too scripted and no one's allowed to be themselves and come up with their own promos

- The stale format and production.

- Even-steven booking. (How can anyone get over when everyone has to get over?)

- Lack of focus on what a wrestling match is supposed to be (this bothers me so much; I'll have to elaborate later).

- Wins and losses that don't matter.

- Unnecessary "authority" figures.

- Vince and Shane all over TV.

 

And the politics of HHH.

[Hektik 0]

Why was the Vince/Shawn feud the main event of a broadcast network special? The WWE has found a way to put together a feud that I have absolutely no interest in seeing. Does anybody else notice how hard they are trying to get "you screwed Shawn" over with the live audience. I first noticed it when Vince did his Bret Hart DVD review a few months ago. Luckily it hasn't caught on with the crowd.

[JimmyHendricks 0]

Why was the Vince/Shawn feud the main event of a broadcast network special? The WWE has found a way to put together a feud that I have absolutely no interest in seeing. Does anybody else notice how hard they are trying to get "you screwed Shawn" over with the live audience. I first noticed it when Vince did his Bret Hart DVD review a few months ago. Luckily it hasn't caught on with the crowd.

 

Well, they won't say it out loud, but they want to make everyone think Bret will be involved somehow in order to spike WrestleMania's buyrate. I truly believe that's the only reason Bret is being inducted into the Hall of Fame THIS year--it could easily wait until next year, but they want us to think he'll be around the next night to do a run in.

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that they keep bringing up Montreal and showing it, and having the announcers mention it every 20 seconds.

 

Of course, Bret won't be involved at all, and Shawn will go over clean (or worse yet, Vince wins with help from Shane or Steph) and everyone will feel let down. And everyone at Titan Towers will just shrug and say "We never said Bret would be involved."

 

It's already working. I've been reading different SNME recaps and I'd say 80% of them have some mention about Bret being involved at WrestleMania--because they keep bringing up Montreal.

 

I feel sorry for those idiots who will plunk down fifty bucks and get nothing. Oh well.

[JimmyHendricks 0]

There is truly some great analysis going on here guys. I'm impressed.

 

One thing I've really seen/felt in the last couple of years--when was the last time you were truly excited, shocked, or surprised by something on a WWE program? Hell, when was the last time you truly marked out over someone or something? I can't remember the last time I was/did. I was vaguely intrigued by Matt Hardy's return (the outsider attacking Edge and being "arrested"), but then they cut the balls off the whole thing by having Vince "hire him back" and shake his hand in the ring.

 

Nowadays, everyone knows what's going to happen well ahead of time. I mean, it's been that way for Smarks forever, but occasionally even WE would be shocked by something. But there's no more surprises. Even the casual fan knows Mark Henry doesn't stand a chance against Undertaker. Everything just.....happens. No surprise returns, and anytime something is rumored or hoped for (Bret) it never happens.

 

I don't think that's the MAJOR problem, but it's part of it. Like tonight, for instance. Was there anything monumental about SNME? Did you want to run out and call all your friends as soon as it was over? How anxious are you to see the next WWE program? Back in the day, I can remember going to school on Tuesday morning and spending almost every class talking about RAW and Nitro. Now, I've been out of school for years, but I bet no one's talking pro wrestling anymore.

The last time I was truly impressed by something WWE related was Shawn's mini heel turn leading to SummerSlam against Hogan. That was some truly classic stuff, especially the promo in Montreal. But, as always, they axed it and Shawn was back to being a Jesus lovin' face immediately after Hogan kicked his ass.

 

Why can't Vince, the "genius" of pro wrestling, think of a money drawing super-mega angle to end all angles? I mean, it can't be that hard, can it? I guess it is, though, since we're going to have some pretty mundane matches at WrestleMania. When the most shocking thing is going to (possibly) be Rey Mysterio winning the world title (that we all know he'll lose to Orton a month later), something's wrong.

 

But we already know something's wrong. Too bad Vince doesn't. Or maybe he does, and just won't let his ego accept it. Either way, it's bad for us.

[Si82 0]

It's funny how before WCW started to go down the shitter, the WWF NEVER acknowledged its own past, but all they've done for the last five years is focus on their history.

It's like WWE is thinking, we were great back then so if we bring these guys back we'll be great again. However, it just doesn't work that way. People want something new. That's what kick started the last boom for them. They looked at the product, saw it was incredibly dated and changed direction. Now they seem content to wheel out the same old shit. Probably because they have no competition so they don't think they need to try.

[Wrestlefreak 0]

Why was the Vince/Shawn feud the main event of a broadcast network special? The WWE has found a way to put together a feud that I have absolutely no interest in seeing. Does anybody else notice how hard they are trying to get "you screwed Shawn" over with the live audience. I first noticed it when Vince did his Bret Hart DVD review a few months ago. Luckily it hasn't caught on with the crowd.

 

Well, they won't say it out loud, but they want to make everyone think Bret will be involved somehow in order to spike WrestleMania's buyrate. I truly believe that's the only reason Bret is being inducted into the Hall of Fame THIS year--it could easily wait until next year, but they want us to think he'll be around the next night to do a run in.

 

I don't think it's a coincidence that they keep bringing up Montreal and showing it, and having the announcers mention it every 20 seconds.

 

Of course, Bret won't be involved at all, and Shawn will go over clean (or worse yet, Vince wins with help from Shane or Steph) and everyone will feel let down. And everyone at Titan Towers will just shrug and say "We never said Bret would be involved."

 

It's already working. I've been reading different SNME recaps and I'd say 80% of them have some mention about Bret being involved at WrestleMania--because they keep bringing up Montreal.

 

I feel sorry for those idiots who will plunk down fifty bucks and get nothing. Oh well.

 

I know what you mean. It's so sad.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

I have a feeling the WM buyrate being extremely low will teach Vince a lesson.

 

I cant see them getting more than 600,000 buys, about twice what they normally get. A) The price is $50, B) The card is looking to be terrible even compared to brand only PPVs, C) The card is entirely too predictable for all the important matches D) They are pulling a WM 19 and trying to sell the PPV on a match involving Vince instead of either of the Title matches.

[Guest Arnold_OldSchool]

WON says 1 million buys will be no problem thanks to international clearence