"Traditonal Fans"

[Da Maintenance Man 0]

I must say, Cena's death valley driver is pretty lame. At least sit down on your ass when you're doing it. Never did I think I would ever be glorifying The Godfather's wrestling technique, but his DVD was better.

 

It actually WAS a DVD until WWE got so anal about head bumps & made everybody "work safer".

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

I think all of you are making some valid points. IN this day and age where boy bands and glitter guys are shoved in our faces it sparks resentment from the male fans. Having Cena pushed past guys like Jericho and Christian who are obviously MORE talented and well respected in every catagory, you create resentment from the long time fans. If you alter the guys gimmick where he doesn't do what he used to do that got him over in the first place TADA resentment again. What does it leave you with. Kids and chicks. Which if I remember right isn't wrestlings core demographic. You can see why they get drowned out in the battle chants.

 

The flip side to the arguement that the fans are just trying to get themselves over is that they are resisting the booking direction. Which makes sense since the booking isn't for them all the while still pretending to be a wrestling show.

 

Is it any wonder why guys like Jericho and Christian jump ship? Shouldn't the crowd be pissed about it? Those guys got run off. The crowd loved those guys and they just HAD to leave. So guys like Cena are going to pay the price.

 

Thing is there is nothing wrong with Cena being a top guy. But if this were 89 style booking it would have been THIS year that Cena would have finally eased into the title picture. The fans would be more comfortable with him and there wouldn't be nearly the kind of backlash against him for at least another 2 years. Cena would have earned his spot more apparently as it wouldn't be such an insult to the other guys who had been there, doing it better, for longer.

[chaosrage 0]

Here's the thing: with Cena, it was him getting cheers at first - which were from women and children - then boos second, which were from men. How do you explain that other than the guys were reacting to the women cheering?

 

Doesn't Shawn Michaels kill this argument?

 

Cena gets booed because they don't like him and they don't want to see him with the title. It's as simple as that.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

I can remember a numbre of times on SD when Cena was U.S. Champ that he was being cheered universally in the crowd. Just about everybody seemed to like him. But come on, when they constantly keep going to reaction shots of kids and gushing women who adore this months muscle man of course guys are going to revolt. Anybody could have seen this coming but they kept doing it anyway. Sorry ladies, wrestling may be a soap opera but it is still a MALE oriented soap opera.

[iggymcfly 0]

People don't resent Cena because he's handsome or something stupid like that. They resent him because he's been getting a ridiculous superface push for the last 14 months that he in no way merits. When his character sucks (which it has since last year's WM), he's small, and he's terrible in the ring, people are going to get annoyed seeing him put over the entire roster.

 

When someone like Brock Lesnar or Batista beats everybody in sight, people can get into the "monster" character, and they can buy it. When Austin and Rock did it, people were so into the character that they didn't care. Even when HHH does it, he at least does it by cheating liberally and as a device to get more boos as the most hated heel in the company.

 

But watching 200 lb., bland, babyface "my favourite wrestler of all time John Cena" dominate the roster is going to turn off the core fanbase pretty quick. When you have this upstart punk holding his own against established wrestlers that people care about (like Angle and Jericho) in handicap matches and then pinning them repeatedly in singles matches, it pisses people off. When you go over a year without giving him a clean loss, it pisses people off.

 

Think about it. When did the boos start subsiding for Cena? When he lost the title to Edge. People thought, "finally, we can have competitive matches at the top of the card instead of watching this vanilla midget dominate the roster". So what did they do? They gave the title right back to him, and like clockwork, the boos started raining down just as loud as before.

 

The fans are clearly trying to send a message that they're sick of seeing Cena on top and they want someone else to carry the banner for Raw for a while. If this were 1998 when Vince actually gave a shit about what his fans thought and listened to them, Cena would have lost the title and turned heel about six months ago. As it is, he's sticking rigidly to his ineffective plan that was written out last year, and it's basically killing the show.

[cabbageboy 0]

I've commented on this in the past, but on SD Cena had the US title and was going against guys who had no credibility. I mean let's face it, Kenzo Suzuki? Rene Dupree? Carlito when he debuted? Orlando Jordan? Hell, his most credible opponent was a heatless Booker T. The one time they tried something a bit different was that brief time when RVD was toying around in the US division. Anyone remember the interaction where RVD did a pseudo heel turn and nailed Cena with a stiff kick, laying him out? It was very odd, the crowd had no idea how to react to it, so it was dropped right after.

 

Even JBL in the world title feud...the guy had no credibility. No one would cheer him over Cena. The biggest mistake was trading Cena over to Raw. He actually has to go against guys with actual fanbases, like Jericho, Angle, HHH, etc.

 

The one thing that hasn't happened to Cena yet is there hasn't been a time when another face was clearly outpopping him in a match. All of these situations have been a certain heel who has a fanbase getting the crowd on his side, while Cena gets booed. I wonder what would happen if Cena was in a match with another face (like RVD)? How would they react to Van Dam being clearly more popular?

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

I must say, Cena's death valley driver is pretty lame. At least sit down on your ass when you're doing it. Never did I think I would ever be glorifying The Godfather's wrestling technique, but his DVD was better.

It's not even a Death Valley Driver, it's a standing Fireman's Carry. But I've been saying forever, when he did the sitout version, it looked SO much better, but the F-U in it's most used form is only above the Worm in my book. Also, might I note that Cena is frickin lazy, even on little obvious things. Like when he came back from the "stabbing" at Survivor Series, he did not even bother to tape up. You see this dude in darn good shape who was supposedly stabbed in the kidney or something and he has no scar or anything. At least tape up. That's another reason why I don't like him. It's not just the rap gimmick or the lame finisher, I can get around both(I like D'Lo and Ron Killings on the rape side and I liked Too Cool, Dreamer, and Raven on the weak finisher side) but he's just lazy on little things and heck, I don't think even Hogan was made as invincible as Cena has been booked. Another thing, what's this "Hustle, Loyalty, Respect" thing? He's a thug, or at the very least a whigger, I'll even give him the Eminem white boy rapper deal. Hustling has to do with drugs or pimps, doesn't it? Loyalty and Respect are more mafia things as I see it, but it's like he's just soooo watered down that I don't think anyone in the real rap community(beside this Trademarc fellow who seems to like him) could take him vaguely seriously, nor do it. I know I'm rambling here, but I'm getting to my point. I don't care if he's ghetto or if he came from a rich town or whatever. He comes off like a total poser, and he has no edge to him, which is essential to being the underdog rapper. If he wants to go down this way, he should be the corporate rapper, like 50 Cent. That's how I see him, anyhow. Lots of "bling bling" and almost no substance.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Let's see if I can get a timeline on this to help explain what happened:

 

Cena under his rap gimmick began as a heel. He didn't get a lot of heat, he had a relatively unsuccessful feud and push with Lesnar after WM 19. However, gradually, fans took to him due to various fan-grabbing schticks (hand gestures, fan participation, catch phrases), which Cena wisely used and continually invented and marketed. Cena got over a great deal with most fans and was seen as being cool and was made US champ and then world champ. As world champ he stopped being creative and inventive and became complacent and stale to a good many of those fans, who liked him initially for being something relatively fresh. Christian pointing out various things like Cena being Vanilla Ice helped speed up the process. Also, inherent in the general nature of popularity is the decline in popularity and a reaction against it (however, usually, the reaction is in the vast minority)

 

Due to staleness and the nature of popularity over time, fan interest in Cena began to wane - they didn't hate Cena, as there weren't boos, the fans just didn't cheer him as much as before. However, not all fans stopped cheering him: Kids still liked Cena and so did females. So, because the male fans stopped cheering wildly for Cena, the females and Kids - a minority at wrestling shows - became more audible. As evidenced by the higher pitched screams and cheers when he came out.

 

This is where the apathy for Cena from those male fans turned to distain. Where the male fans began to actively boo Cena and cheer his opponents. Cena would initially get a superstar pop reaction coming out, which turned into just chicks and kids cheering, which turned to men booing. Since feuds during this time were against Jericho and Angle, it wasn't hard for a certain group of fans to cheer them over Cena. Eventually, the reaction to the women and kids cheering mutated into a preemptive action, where fans would choose to boo Cena when he came out. This grew into what we have now where it is en vogue to boo him, where people have fun booing him.

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

Here's the thing: with Cena, it was him getting cheers at first - which were from women and children - then boos second, which were from men. How do you explain that other than the guys were reacting to the women cheering?

 

Doesn't Shawn Michaels kill this argument?

 

Cena gets booed because they don't like him and they don't want to see him with the title. It's as simple as that.

Michaels can actually GO when he has to, wonky match formula aside, HBK has a more varied offense and he's one of those guys who can take a great beating when he wants to. Cena has an offense that's about as limited as Hogan's without Hogan's willingness to use cheap shots to mix up his strikes and I'll take the Superkick over the FU anyday

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

...he's small...

 

...But watching 200 lb...

 

...vanilla midget...

Um, the dude is 6'3", 260 lbs. He's FU'd the Big Show. You make it sound like he's built like Brian Kendrick.

 

Are buyrates, house show attendance, ratings down appreciably with Cena as champ? No. He's pushing merchandise, he's garnering the biggest reactions of anyone on the roster, so what if he's getting boo's as a face? It's not really affecting business. Until it starts making a noticeable dent in business, I see no need to job the guy out & bury him in the midcard and/or take the belt off him. Vince et al need to figure out a way to use this to their advantage without messing up the dynamic at work.

[claydude14 0]

While watching Mania at our Student Union in college, I was suprised to see the urban crowd be the only won cheer when Cena won... everyone else let out a groan. It's odd because at a Smackdown! I went to years ago a lot of the AA around me were giving him shit and yelling wigger, and he was up against Billy Gunn of all people. I don't want to try and generalize the race or anything though, so I'll just chalk it up to them being different groups of fans... just was suprising that the ones at Mania actually liked Cena. I figured he'd get the "he's a wannabe wigger" reaction.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I don't see how Michaels kills the argument. His most successful face period came in post-retirement/2002-on where he was very much an old man. During his singles career before that, he was face for, what, under 2 years? And he was never as loved as much as he was hated in that time, and the fans eventually rejected him as well, most notably cheering Sid over him.

[Da Maintenance Man 0]

I must say, Cena's death valley driver is pretty lame. At least sit down on your ass when you're doing it. Never did I think I would ever be glorifying The Godfather's wrestling technique, but his DVD was better.

It's not even a Death Valley Driver, it's a standing Fireman's Carry. But I've been saying forever, when he did the sitout version, it looked SO much better, but the F-U in it's most used form is only above the Worm in my book. Also, might I note that Cena is frickin lazy, even on little obvious things. Like when he came back from the "stabbing" at Survivor Series, he did not even bother to tape up. You see this dude in darn good shape who was supposedly stabbed in the kidney or something and he has no scar or anything. At least tape up. That's another reason why I don't like him. It's not just the rap gimmick or the lame finisher, I can get around both(I like D'Lo and Ron Killings on the rape side and I liked Too Cool, Dreamer, and Raven on the weak finisher side) but he's just lazy on little things and heck, I don't think even Hogan was made as invincible as Cena has been booked. Another thing, what's this "Hustle, Loyalty, Respect" thing? He's a thug, or at the very least a whigger, I'll even give him the Eminem white boy rapper deal. Hustling has to do with drugs or pimps, doesn't it? Loyalty and Respect are more mafia things as I see it, but it's like he's just soooo watered down that I don't think anyone in the real rap community(beside this Trademarc fellow who seems to like him) could take him vaguely seriously, nor do it. I know I'm rambling here, but I'm getting to my point. I don't care if he's ghetto or if he came from a rich town or whatever. He comes off like a total poser, and he has no edge to him, which is essential to being the underdog rapper. If he wants to go down this way, he should be the corporate rapper, like 50 Cent. That's how I see him, anyhow. Lots of "bling bling" and almost no substance.

 

 

"Hustling" isn't just about selling drugs & shit, like most mainstream hip-hop wants you to believe. To me at least, hustling is just working hard in general, in whatever you do.

[chaosrage 0]

I don't see how Michaels kills the argument. His most successful face period came in post-retirement/2002-on where he was very much an old man. During his singles career before that, he was face for, what, under 2 years? And he was never as loved as much as he was hated in that time, and the fans eventually rejected him as well, most notably cheering Sid over him.

 

What does being an old man have to do with it? (37-40 is an old man?) MSG Survivor Series 96 is pretty much the only time he was ever booed by a crowd as a face, as far as I can remember. Except for Canada.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Explain what Shawn Michaels has to do with anything I said and I'll answer that question.

[chaosrage 0]

Explain what Shawn Michaels has to do with anything I said and I'll answer that question.

 

He proves that guys don't turn on wrestlers just because women are cheering for them.

[iggymcfly 0]

...he's small...

 

...But watching 200 lb...

 

...vanilla midget...

Um, the dude is 6'3", 260 lbs. He's FU'd the Big Show. You make it sound like he's built like Brian Kendrick.

 

Are buyrates, house show attendance, ratings down appreciably with Cena as champ? No. He's pushing merchandise, he's garnering the biggest reactions of anyone on the roster, so what if he's getting boo's as a face? It's not really affecting business. Until it starts making a noticeable dent in business, I see no need to job the guy out & bury him in the midcard and/or take the belt off him. Vince et al need to figure out a way to use this to their advantage without messing up the dynamic at work.

 

I was exaggerating a little bit, but the point is that he's not big enough for it to believable for him to physically dominate the roster, and so they shouldn't try to book him like he's superhuman. No one who's under 7'0 and 300 lbs. should ever wrestle main event level competition in handicap matches. Angle's strong and athletic enough that it looks at least somewhat believable, but it just looks silly when Cena does it. It's not that he's too small to be a credible main eventer; it's just that he's too small to be booked as this superhuman monster that can destroy five heels at the same time.

[Perfxion 0]

Its easy to solve Cena's problem, turn him heel. Nothing else needs to change, just turn him heel.

 

HBK was cheered as a Rocker, turned heel in 1992 and except for WM11 to Jan of 1997, HBK was a heel until he returned in 2002. He was booed by the males most of the time. Durring his major face run: Sid turned on him, twice and he had the whole boyhood dream angle. And didn't draw shit. He was what getting what Cena is currently getting, except putting on better matches. By Nov, the fans really wanted him heel. They booed the hell out of him. The only reason he was a face at the Rumble is because the event was in his hometown. Then he lost his smile and his male fan base left pretty much until he wrestled Hunter in 2002.

[Guest Human Highlight Reel]

This is where the apathy for Cena from those male fans turned to distain. Where the male fans began to actively boo Cena and cheer his opponents. Cena would initially get a superstar pop reaction coming out, which turned into just chicks and kids cheering, which turned to men booing. Since feuds during this time were against Jericho and Angle, it wasn't hard for a certain group of fans to cheer them over Cena. Eventually, the reaction to the women and kids cheering mutated into a preemptive action, where fans would choose to boo Cena when he came out. This grew into what we have now where it is en vogue to boo him, where people have fun booing him.

Again, you can't say this is the only factor. You're ignoring the fact that Cena's first heavy booings were against Kurt Angle, who was still very over, even as a heel, at that point. The first heavy booing I can remember is when he faced Angle in that first blood match. They didn't boo Cena in matches against Jericho and Angle, they cheered for Jericho and Angle. It was only when Cena's the only person on screen and you just know he's about to beat one of your favorites. The reaction would have come a lot sooner if it was for your reason. Notice how lately, it's the Cena fanbase who are reacting to the boos of the crowd, not the other way around. The crowd are sick of John Cena for reasons already stated in this thread, not because they want to drown out the teenage girl fanbase. If that was the case, Orton would be over as a heel.

[Papacita 0]

I really don't think the problem with Cena has anything to do with women and children--at least not to the level that people are suggesting. I think the backlash against him has had more to do with WWE's blatant attempts to force fans to root for him. People mention the programs with Jericho and Angle as a source of the problem, but remember how those feuds were booked, with Jericho and Bischoff constantly stacking the odds against Cena (more so than usual), and also by having Angle take the anti-American stance. Stuff like this has made it painfully obvious that cheering Cena isn't the thing to do, it's the thing WWE wants you to do, and whenever you start dictating to the fans, there's gonna be a backlash.

 

That's one of the main reasons I feel that the face/heel dynamic should just be scrapped in WWE. People are gonna cheer for whomever they wanna cheer for--there's no need to try to force them to react one way or the other.

[Black Lushus 0]

so what are some of the infamous, "smarky" crowds? (as far as WWE/F goes)

 

Philly

MSG

Long Island

Chicago

Boston

Toronto

 

anywhere else?

[Perfxion 0]

Long Island isn't really smarky as more of a dead crowd. Unless your first name is Mick or your nickname is The Rock or Stone Cold, they will sit on their hands. Some of the most boring shows are in Long Island. This is one of the main reasons the WWE stays in CT and not NY lately.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

I can tell ya WWE bored Cleveland to the point where there's not a black tarp big enough to cover up the empty seats. May be the reason why they haven't been here since August and aren't scheduled to come back.

[Black Lushus 0]

I hope they make a few more stops this way...the last Raw (3/27) was pretty full and the crowd was hot the whole night...I'm not so sure SD would do well...I attribute our crowd to Cena, that's right Cena...Omaha was VERY pro-Cena.

[Wrestlefreak 0]

Its easy to solve Cena's problem, turn him heel. Nothing else needs to change, just turn him heel.

 

Exactly. The WWE has no good reason not to.

[chaosrage 0]

Its easy to solve Cena's problem, turn him heel. Nothing else needs to change, just turn him heel.

 

HBK was cheered as a Rocker, turned heel in 1992 and except for WM11 to Jan of 1997, HBK was a heel until he returned in 2002. He was booed by the males most of the time. Durring his major face run: Sid turned on him, twice and he had the whole boyhood dream angle. And didn't draw shit. He was what getting what Cena is currently getting, except putting on better matches. By Nov, the fans really wanted him heel. They booed the hell out of him.

 

At one show.

 

The only reason he was a face at the Rumble is because the event was in his hometown. Then he lost his smile and his male fan base left pretty much

 

Did they boo him like they boo Cena in 97? No. He was still getting cheered until he turned heel after Summerslam. And even then, the crowd reaction just became mixed for the first few months.

 

until he wrestled Hunter in 2002.

 

Which was 4 years ago.

[The Czech Republic 0]

I wonder what the excuse is going to be when the next person to get the superface push gets booed also. Rudo's said it over and over again, as well as others: the fans are far more concerned with getting themselves over than being there for the product.

Yeah, fans suck. Mark is the new smark.

[cabbageboy 0]

I think one important thing needs to be said: These smark crowds are NOT the traditional crowds. These crowds go more in line with the fringe ECW type crowds, those that will not be told who to cheer for, who to boo, etc. Cena got booed by a very fringe Chicago crowd...would the reaction have been the same in St. Louis (which actually is a very traditional wrestling crowd)? I doubt it.

 

Traditional crowds are those that grasp simple concepts like heel and face and react accordingly. Cena has mostly gotten booed by vicious crowds in the northeast or the northern midwest areas like Chicago. He got a positive reaction in the south, and I would bet anyone he gets a very good response from the Rupp Arena crowd at Backlash.

[Guest Coffey]

I would bet anyone he gets a very good response from the Rupp Arena crowd at Backlash.

I'll take that bet.

[iggymcfly 0]

I really don't think the problem with Cena has anything to do with women and children--at least not to the level that people are suggesting. I think the backlash against him has had more to do with WWE's blatant attempts to force fans to root for him. People mention the programs with Jericho and Angle as a source of the problem, but remember how those feuds were booked, with Jericho and Bischoff constantly stacking the odds against Cena (more so than usual), and also by having Angle take the anti-American stance. Stuff like this has made it painfully obvious that cheering Cena isn't the thing to do, it's the thing WWE wants you to do, and whenever you start dictating to the fans, there's gonna be a backlash.

 

That's one of the main reasons I feel that the face/heel dynamic should just be scrapped in WWE. People are gonna cheer for whomever they wanna cheer for--there's no need to try to force them to react one way or the other.

 

 

I couldn't agree more with this notion. The fact is that in this day and age, people don't watch matches to see one guy get their ass kicked. The day kayfabe ended, heels that act like assholes and cheat to win all their matches became obsolete and unnecessary. When the program's been at it's best, it's been about a clash between two interesting characters with larger than life personas.

 

The idea that heels need to insult the troops or assault women or dishonor the dead for their matches to get over on a show that's admittedly staged is downright ridiculous. When Orton says something about Eddie, people don't think "wow, Randy Orton's an asshole. I'd like to see Rey kick his ass". They think "wow, the WWE's one classless organization". The heat just doesn't transfer the same way any more.

 

There are exceptions of course. A heel champion that cheats to keep his belt still has a place, as the payoff when he gets beat by a popular wreslter is worth it. Likewise, occasionally, there will be a storyline good enough to give a character legit heat for a single feud. (I think HHH has legit heat when he first feuded with HBK, and so did Edge when the Matt Hardy thing came out.) But for the most part, the WWE needs to focus on telling stories of the clashes between two interesting personas.

 

If Angle gets cheered over Cena, big deal, let them cheer. Don't insult thte fans' intelligence by having him come out and completely deny his character by insulting the troops. If they're afraid people aren't into an Orton/Rey match, they're not going to magically get interested if you do a classless angle about Eddie's real-life death. If people want to cheer for Jericho over HBK in Canada, just go with it. Don't kill the while reaction by having Jericho insult his hometown fans. Don't insult the fans' intelligence by running an "8-man tournament" which magically consists of seven face/heel matches, and spoils the results of other matches before they happen.

 

I mean obviously, some wrestlers are going to be more popular than others. That's healthy and it's a crucial factor in PPV buys and merchandising. But when they spend so much futile effort into trying to get someone "heel heat" that they turn off much of their audience, it really ruins the program. There's going to be one or two guys on the show tops that have a character that's well-defined enough for the fanbase to actually pay to see them lose. The rest of the time, they just need to make us interested in what's happening in the ring.