Is Kawada/Misawa still the standard?

[JustJoe2k5 0]

Whenever someone mentions that they want to start watching Japanese wrestling, one of the first matches that used to be suggested to watch would be the Kawada/Misawa match from '94. After twelve years, is this match still considered the pinnacle of Japanese wrestling? Have any matches reached the level of this match or have any matches ever come close? Just thought I would get a little discussion going in here.

[World's Worst Man 0]

I think it's becoming less recommended by people "in the know" as a starting point for newcomers to Japanese wrestling. That's mostly because the match is really their 3rd or 4th major singles match, and there's a lot of history in the match that a newcomer wouldn't get. I'd assume it's still highly regarded in a match quality sense, as I haven't read any convincing arguments that would make me question whether it really was one of the best matches ever.

 

As for other matches that might be better, for a while I've thought the 6/9/95 tag match was better. That might be it though. As for lately, nothing has really come close since 1997.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I'd have a lot of matches ahead of it as I feel the match is overrated. I'd have at least 100 matches as being better. Still a great match but it has some elements I don't like in my wrestling.

 

These are matches that are often cited as being some of the best ever where you should at least be able to find some people who will say they are the best

 

Hokuto vs Kandori is probably the #1 pick among the hardcores and it deserves to be up there. For singles matches, a lot of people think it's better.

 

Kobashi vs Misawa 1/20/97

 

Thunderqueen

 

Taue/Kawada vs Misawa/Akyima 12/96

 

Lyger vs Sano 1/90

 

Villano III vs Atlantis Mask vs Mask? I'm not sure if people think of this match as the best ever but I know it's thought of extreamly highly.

 

There are some Mexican matches "being discovered" as of late mostly from CMLL that are being cited as best match ever possibilities.

 

As for "matches being close" a lot of people would have a ton of bouts being around the same level.

[Special K 0]

I think Misawa/Kawada and Hokuto/Kandori are still regarded as the greatest single's matches ever.

 

No one's stepped up to fill the void the big 4 (or big 5 with Akiyama) left in men's Japanese wrestling, as they slowly (inevitably, given their style) broke down

 

I don't know the state of Modern Joshi at all.

 

 

Here's something: What's considered the greatest singles Jr's match? I just tend to watch the guys I mark out for, namely Ohtani, Lyger, Malenko and Benoit.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

What's considered the greatest singles Jr's match?

Most praise seems to go to Benoit vs. Sasuke in the first Super Jr Cup final.

 

As for the legendary Misawa vs. Kawada match, I've never rated as the all time classic most label it as. It's a very good match that I liked a great deal, but I would have a hard time calling it the greatest match of all time.

[Cuban Linx 0]

As far as juniors matches go i've seen Ohtani/Samurai 1/21/96 mentioned as the pinnacle of NJ Juniors matches quite a bit, as well as the usual candidates like Benoit/Sasuke J Cup, Ohtani/Ultimo J Crown (my personal favorite), Lyger/Ohtani 2/9/97, and Eddy/Benoit & Eddy/Lyger from the '96 Super Juniors semi's and final.

 

Never seen the likes of Lyger/Samurai '92, the Lyger/Sano series or the Takada/Koshinaka era 80's junior stuff so i can't comment on them, though they've all been highly praised as well.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Otani vs. Samurai is a good choice. As are the two great Otani vs. Liger matches (3/17/96, 2/9/97). Liger vs. Samurai's TOSJ '92 finals, the best of the Sano-Liger series, Benoit-Sasuke J-Cup '94 final, Benooit-Guerrero BOSJ '96 semis, Benoit-Otani WCW CW title and Otani vs. Dragon from the J-Crown tournament would probably be the next tier.

[Special K 0]

Benoit-Otani WCW CW title

This is probably my favorite.

 

Liger vs. Samurai's TOSJ '92 finals, the best of the Sano-Liger series

 

These I really need to see. Like many, I started with the '94 J-cup and went forward, chronologically, from there.

[Special K 0]

After rewatching Hokuto/Kandori, I think I can safely say it's the best singles match ever. It's effin' incredible.

[Hawk 34 0]

I haven't seen that match, is it youtubed?

[Special K 0]

I don't know, I have it on tape. It's fucking incredible. You have to get past the annoyance of harsh, shrill, Japanese women screaming.

 

But it's so great. It's worth buying Dreamslam. I would put it like... the long term selling is excellent, a'la Flair/Steamboat. The offense is fucking cringe-worthy.

 

Basically, great selling, GREAT story. crazy moves. It's the best of all 3 worlds.

[TheInsane 0]

After rewatching Hokuto/Kandori, I think I can safely say it's the best singles match ever. It's effin' incredible.

 

What date did that match happen? I have one match between the two from sometime in 1993. Its really bloody from the get go. Could that be the match you refer to?

[Special K 0]

I think so. I don't know the date, but it's '93. Dreamslam is the name of the event. I think you have the match in question.

 

EDIT: It's bloody as hell.

[I like Forums 0]

I found the offense for the majority of the match kind of lame. Vicious but lame. Lots of punch, kick, bull.

[Special K 0]

Those are some vicious, vicious punches and kicks, my man.

 

Hatred. That's why that match is, in my eyes, the best I've ever seen. You cannot watch that match and suspend belief. And Hokuto can sell like it's nobody's business. And bleed like Flair.

[I like Forums 0]

Oh I agree it tells a great story.... and completely vicious. I was just thinking that I could've used a bit more variety of offence. But the offence that was present worked for what the match was.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I haven't seen that match, is it youtubed?

 

 

I love youtube but you do not watch Hokuto vs Kandori on youtube. It doesn't do it justice.

[mfn 0]

Are any of the matches above listed on YouTube?

 

I know of some of these matches, but I've never seen them. I havn't really gotten huge into japan wrestling.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

So does anybgody have the Hokuto vs. Kandori match? My interest is peaked.

[Special K 0]

I really, really like Maeda/Fujinami too. And the match was cut short by a brutal spin-kick. Fujinami MUST have been concussed by that kick. He bled all over the fucking place.

 

Maybe I just like watching people getting the shit beat out of them and coming back.

 

The one shot that will always make me feel a little sick is the shot of Misawa bleeding out of his ear in that match. He hoists himself up, and blood runs from the fucking inside of his ear down his face. That Kawada's a sick bastard.

 

Made even more apparent by him literally breaking Misawa's fucking face in the Champions Carny.

[Special K 0]

Here's a tangent: Stinko Malenko

 

I have a ton of his matches. And they're ALWAYS good. Sometimes the mat wrestling in puro Jr's feels like such a formality, but he always makes these segments really, really entertaining.

 

That said, while I like pretty much all his matches from the early 90's time period, not a one really sticks out. (Ok, when the 'iceman' beat Lyger and started jumping up and down, celebrating a'la Owen Hart, that stuck out)

 

Is Malenko/Guerrero 2/3 from ECW his best match? Don't get me wrong, it's a terrific match, an incredible story, and the crowd just rules. The 'please don't go' chants are incredible. And Joey Styles is at his best, explaining the story, and increasing the passion of the match.

 

But is that his best match?

[I like Forums 0]

Enjoy Hakuto vs Kandori. My upload.

 

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=1VGNN62H

[Special K 0]

you are the fucking MAN! Everyone should see this match.

[Hawk 34 0]

That actually lived up to the hype. Good stuff.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Here's a tangent: Stinko Malenko

 

I have a ton of his matches. And they're ALWAYS good. Sometimes the mat wrestling in puro Jr's feels like such a formality, but he always makes these segments really, really entertaining.

 

That said, while I like pretty much all his matches from the early 90's time period, not a one really sticks out. (Ok, when the 'iceman' beat Lyger and started jumping up and down, celebrating a'la Owen Hart, that stuck out)

 

Is Malenko/Guerrero 2/3 from ECW his best match? Don't get me wrong, it's a terrific match, an incredible story, and the crowd just rules. The 'please don't go' chants are incredible. And Joey Styles is at his best, explaining the story, and increasing the passion of the match.

 

But is that his best match?

 

I've seen the entire series between the two and I'm not sure what I'd call their best match out of those. Malenko's best match is either the match against Ultimo at Starrcade or the Clash, one of his matches against Rey (always thought the Rey/Dean matches were underrated) or his 94 (not 93) BOSJ match against Benoit*. That's just counting singles matches though.

 

*Better seen on handheld as it comes across a lot better.

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

Personally, I've never been a fan of the Kawada/Misawa series. Maybe it was due to the fact that I stumbled across their huge 94 match during my first few months of getting into Puro. It caused me to dislike Kawada for agggges too. Now it's reversed, and I loathe Misawa and worship Kawada. Go figure.

 

To me, a good or great wrestling match builds off history (if there is any) but stands alone. That match doesn't live on it's own. Most of their big singles matches don't live on their own, due to long ass periods of inactivity and sequences that make no sense inless you've watched the entire storyline. I cannot honestly say I've ever seen a Misawa/Kawada singles match that I'd rate as godawful, but haven't seen any singles that I'd rate above good. Their tag encounters are some of the finest examples of work in the history of wrestling, but I've never felt the same connection to the singles matches.

 

Historically, the Misawa/Kawada singles feud falls apart when you inspect it. In alot of ways, you could draw the comparison to say...Raven v.s. Dreamer. One guy gets his ass beat in one on one encounters the entire feud. However, the distinct difference is that Dreamer won the major match, and was the winner at the end. Kawada's never gotten that one major victory over Misawa. He never will. He's BEATEN Misawa, but in the grand scheme of things, it never mattered. Misawa won the big matches, with the big hype, with the big consequences. Kawada was never given the ball to run with until Misawa was out of the equasion...and even then got fucked over. If Kawada's career was a storyline, he'd be the asskicking lovable loser that you want to see come ahead, but never will get his true moment to shine.

 

For my money, I rate the Misawa/Kobashi (Notice how Misawa was in all the major storylines?!) feud alot higher. Due to the fact that new chapters are still being writen. It evolved from Kobashi being Misawa's little buddy, to being friendly rivals, to generation enemies, to damn near no good feelings towards each other at all. I guess you could make the claim that the hatred wasn't as evident in their feud as it was in the Kawada one...but that was mostly because Kawada would blast the living holy shit out of Misawa and cave his face in. That type of shit hurt all their careers, due to the punishment. Not that Tiger Suplex's off a fucking stage is much better, but it's better then a broken eyesocket from a boot to the EYE.

 

I'm not sure what I'd rate as the best heavyweight puro match I've ever seen, but I know the Junior one. Ultimo Dragon v.s. Shinjiro Otani from the 96 J Crown. So, so awesome. Little touches are everywhere, including Otani's desperate attempts to escape a jujigatame (I think), only to constantly end up in WORSE situations. It was at the height of both men's skills at that point, and they brought EVEEERYTHING they could. Shoulda been the tournament final. Stupid Sasuke being in the finals, hate you.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Personally, I've never been a fan of the Kawada/Misawa series. Maybe it was due to the fact that I stumbled across their huge 94 match during my first few months of getting into Puro. It caused me to dislike Kawada for agggges too. Now it's reversed, and I loathe Misawa and worship Kawada. Go figure.

 

To me, a good or great wrestling match builds off history (if there is any) but stands alone. That match doesn't live on it's own. Most of their big singles matches don't live on their own, due to long ass periods of inactivity and sequences that make no sense inless you've watched the entire storyline. I cannot honestly say I've ever seen a Misawa/Kawada singles match that I'd rate as godawful, but haven't seen any singles that I'd rate above good. Their tag encounters are some of the finest examples of work in the history of wrestling, but I've never felt the same connection to the singles matches.

 

Historically, the Misawa/Kawada singles feud falls apart when you inspect it. In alot of ways, you could draw the comparison to say...Raven v.s. Dreamer. One guy gets his ass beat in one on one encounters the entire feud. However, the distinct difference is that Dreamer won the major match, and was the winner at the end. Kawada's never gotten that one major victory over Misawa. He never will. He's BEATEN Misawa, but in the grand scheme of things, it never mattered. Misawa won the big matches, with the big hype, with the big consequences. Kawada was never given the ball to run with until Misawa was out of the equasion...and even then got fucked over. If Kawada's career was a storyline, he'd be the asskicking lovable loser that you want to see come ahead, but never will get his true moment to shine.

 

For my money, I rate the Misawa/Kobashi (Notice how Misawa was in all the major storylines?!) feud alot higher. Due to the fact that new chapters are still being writen. It evolved from Kobashi being Misawa's little buddy, to being friendly rivals, to generation enemies, to damn near no good feelings towards each other at all. I guess you could make the claim that the hatred wasn't as evident in their feud as it was in the Kawada one...but that was mostly because Kawada would blast the living holy shit out of Misawa and cave his face in. That type of shit hurt all their careers, due to the punishment. Not that Tiger Suplex's off a fucking stage is much better, but it's better then a broken eyesocket from a boot to the EYE.

 

I'm not sure what I'd rate as the best heavyweight puro match I've ever seen, but I know the Junior one. Ultimo Dragon v.s. Shinjiro Otani from the 96 J Crown. So, so awesome. Little touches are everywhere, including Otani's desperate attempts to escape a jujigatame (I think), only to constantly end up in WORSE situations. It was at the height of both men's skills at that point, and they brought EVEEERYTHING they could. Shoulda been the tournament final. Stupid Sasuke being in the finals, hate you.

 

And I thought I was hard on Misawa vs Kawada and took a lot of flak over it for just calling it merely great to excellent. Hawk34, you've got to make a top 100 list or something because with this and your love for indy wrestling there's potential there to be the craziest list ever. I would be really interested in seeing this.

[Dangerous A 0]

There are 2 different Hawk posters. You quoted Hawk 52, but you praised Hawk 34.

[World's Worst Man 0]

To me, a good or great wrestling match builds off history (if there is any) but stands alone. That match doesn't live on it's own. Most of their big singles matches don't live on their own, due to long ass periods of inactivity and sequences that make no sense inless you've watched the entire storyline. I cannot honestly say I've ever seen a Misawa/Kawada singles match that I'd rate as godawful, but haven't seen any singles that I'd rate above good. Their tag encounters are some of the finest examples of work in the history of wrestling, but I've never felt the same connection to the singles matches.

 

So much bullshit, where to begin? Firstly, their matches stand on their own. The incredibly high level of selling, building to moves, execution and timing in their matches needs no historical context to be understood. And most of their matches had these things in spades, and at quite a higher level than many other matches. The matches are great on their own, the added long-running story just makes them better.

 

Historically, the Misawa/Kawada singles feud falls apart when you inspect it. In alot of ways, you could draw the comparison to say...Raven v.s. Dreamer. One guy gets his ass beat in one on one encounters the entire feud. However, the distinct difference is that Dreamer won the major match, and was the winner at the end. Kawada's never gotten that one major victory over Misawa. He never will. He's BEATEN Misawa, but in the grand scheme of things, it never mattered. Misawa won the big matches, with the big hype, with the big consequences. Kawada was never given the ball to run with until Misawa was out of the equasion...and even then got fucked over. If Kawada's career was a storyline, he'd be the asskicking lovable loser that you want to see come ahead, but never will get his true moment to shine.

 

This is utterly ridiculous. You don't consider All Japan's first stand-alone Tokyo Dome show to be a big deal? That was their biggest show to that point in their history, and Kawada wins the main event, yet it didn't matter? How the fuck is that justified? Because he lost the title to Kobashi a month later? I fail to see how that matters in the context of the Misawa feud. If anything, it makes Misawa look worse for losing to a guy who lost the title a month later.

 

For my money, I rate the Misawa/Kobashi (Notice how Misawa was in all the major storylines?!) feud alot higher. Due to the fact that new chapters are still being writen. It evolved from Kobashi being Misawa's little buddy, to being friendly rivals, to generation enemies, to damn near no good feelings towards each other at all.

 

Now I'm suspecting that you actually haven't seen or even read about the entire Kawada-Misawa feud, because their feud pretty much unravelled the same way that you describe the Misawa-Kobashi feud. I mean seriously, have you actually seen the whole feud, or what? My god, if you want to take such a contrarian position, at least make some good points. All you've really done is post factually incorrect information combined with irrelevant points that make me question whether you've actually seen or understood the whole feud.

[Hawkius Maximus 0]

So much bullshit, where to begin? Firstly, their matches stand on their own. The incredibly high level of selling, building to moves, execution and timing in their matches needs no historical context to be understood. And most of their matches had these things in spades, and at quite a higher level than many other matches. The matches are great on their own, the added long-running story just makes them better.

 

Bullshit. I've seen most, if not ALL of their matches, and for one thing, the big difference between Kawada & Kobashi v.s. Misawa, is Kobashi rarely let Misawa stall until late into the match where it made sense. Misawa often would stall his ass off in his "attempt" to sell, such as grabbing his midsection and cough to symbolize that Vader just leapt off the fucking apron and crushed him. No rolling, just...lay there...lightly touch stomach...cough. Misawa only truely sells when he's either A: Hurt. B: Exhausted or C: Just dropped vertically on his fucking head.

 

 

This is utterly ridiculous. You don't consider All Japan's first stand-alone Tokyo Dome show to be a big deal? That was their biggest show to that point in their history, and Kawada wins the main event, yet it didn't matter? How the fuck is that justified? Because he lost the title to Kobashi a month later? I fail to see how that matters in the context of the Misawa feud. If anything, it makes Misawa look worse for losing to a guy who lost the title a month later.

 

Big match, yes. Sure as fuck not the biggest of their entire fued, and sure as fuck not as important. Misawa won EVERY SINGLE SINGLES MATCH UNTIL 1997. Kawada beat him in what was basicly a screwjob since Kobashi had already beaten the living fuck out of Misawa for half an hour during the 1997 Champions Carnival playoff. Kawada comes in, six minute victory. THAT was the pay off, an inconsequental victory where Kawada had consistantly lost to Misawa for years. Even to this point in their careers, Misawa brought in Kawada, and against all reasoning, he beat Kawada AGAIN. In the Tokyo Dome. IN THEIR FINAL MATCH. You're trying to tell me, with all that, that Misawa wasn't made to look like he was far and away much better then Kawada? That's bullshit. In their 94 match, the fans DESPERATELY wanted Kawada to win, so he doesn't win a singles match for three more years. Whoooo! I also like the fact that you used Kawada's ONE big victory on the big scale to prove me wrong. Good going! How about all the others? Oh...wait...there's maybe...two? more times that Kawada actually bested Misawa? He beat him for the TC in 1999, but I'm sure you know of so many more. Enlighten me.

 

Now I'm suspecting that you actually haven't seen or even read about the entire Kawada-Misawa feud, because their feud pretty much unravelled the same way that you describe the Misawa-Kobashi feud. I mean seriously, have you actually seen the whole feud, or what? My god, if you want to take such a contrarian position, at least make some good points. All you've really done is post factually incorrect information combined with irrelevant points that make me question whether you've actually seen or understood the whole feud.

 

And yet...You post no factual information at all beyond you're arguments which are conjecture based upon the fact that I dare go against common Puro-elitist standards by disliking their feud. Kawada and Misawa never really cared for each other. They may have been team-mates in the generation war, but they sure as fuck didn't care for each other like Kobashi & Misawa did. Kawada split off with Taue after that, and went his own way to prove himself. Kobashi was Misawa's friend, and they teamed together for some time against Kawada and Taue. Kobashi, in what is often called one of the greatest tag matches in history sacrificed his body, and his health to protect Misawa. Kawada NEVER had that connection. Kawada, even in the Generation wars, was a prick, he never stopped wrestling like a dick. Kawada was only a good guy in the most general term possible, because he was aligned with uber face Misawa, and underdogs Kobashi and Kikuchi. On his own, he was a violent asshole, who'd beat the fuck out of anyone if he meant he could win. Kawada was never honorable, or nice. Nor friends with Misawa. Fuck, if I remember right, they were rivals in SCHOOL. How can you tell me that Kobashi, with his deep friendship with Misawa slowly, over the years turning in severe dislike is anything close to Kawada joining Taue, and within maybe two years trying to kill Misawa? It's totally different, and if anything, you've exposed YOU'RE lack of understanding of the feuds.