Booker T vs Buff Bagwell

[Anakin Flair 0]

double post

[Anakin Flair 0]

What I don't understand is why wrestlers can't learn rest holds other than a chinlock. Use a Fujiwara armbar, or a half-crab, or a camel clutch, or an indian deathlock or SOMETHING.

 

 

I think all of those were beuing used as submission finishers in WCW at the time (before it went under).

 

As to why the match sucked, it's been said- they needed something truly specail, and instead we got a snoozefest. And instead of building up WCW, the WWE guys beat the shit out of the WCW guys at the end.

 

Vince should have spent the money to buy out the big names and get them on the show. Instead, Flair shows up THE DAY AFTER the invasion storyline ends, th nWo shortly thereafter, then a few years later came Steiner, then Goldberg, and now a lot of the old WCW big names are under the WWE Legends deal, like Dusty Rhodes.

[Maztinho 0]

I think the main part that people shat on this match, was that Buff's antics backstage with the WWE guys was perfectly in his character... which was annoying. Like it's been mentioned before WWE fans didn't know who these two guy where. So they get a generic black guy and hyenia.

 

A ratings bonaza it was not.

 

Wasn't DDP one of the guys who bought out of his Time Warner contract? Why not DDP/Book in a face vs face match?

[alfdogg 0]

Wow, 14 replies without a "SHUDNT THIS BE IN GENRAL WRESLING~" post. I'm impressed.

 

Im sorry if this is posted in the wrong section but the match did take place on WWF television and this is the forum for discussion on that company.

I wasn't trying to bash you, I was just stating my surprise that no one had brought that up yet. Usually you get one or two knowledgable replies before people start whining about it.

[Guest El Satanico]

DDP was too busy stalking Sara 'Taker

[King Cucaracha 0]

Vince basically devoted 20 minutes of his program to a dead company, and nobody wanted to see that.

 

Oh, the irony.

[Fro 0]

You do realize that match is pretty heavily clipped, right?

[TheInsane 0]

You do realize that match is pretty heavily clipped, right?

 

I mentioned it was clipped in one of my previous posts in the topic. I wondered if it was an abrupt comercial break but no one answered. Is the clip that is on you tube what people saw on tv when it aired? If so what people saw on tv wasnt as bad as people say it was - in my opinion.

[Black Lushus 0]

I honestly don't remember...I do remember watching that episode live but kinda tuned out.

[justcoz 0]

There were no rest holds on WWF tv at that time. Even though the Russo era was long-gone they were still very much following the crash tv format with a lot of backstage stuff and really short matches. It was also a case of timing and doing something in the wrong location. I think if they would have ran the WCW return in a city like Atlanta there may have been a different response but they were also foolish not to make big money plays to bring in guys like Eric Bishoff, Ric Flair, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Hogan, Sting, Rey Mysterio, Goldberg, etc. That would have at least resembled the WCW that was popular rather than the one that died. You have to wonder, if the crowd didn't totally shit on Buff vs. Booker, the landscape of the business could be drastically different today. I mean, they at least appeared to have serious interest in bringing WCW back to the point of giving them 20 minutes on Raw, bringing in an announce team, changing the lighting and even having a WCW ring apron and logo on the screen.

[Guest Chris Xtreme]

There were no rest holds on WWF tv at that time. Even though the Russo era was long-gone they were still very much following the crash tv format with a lot of backstage stuff and really short matches. It was also a case of timing and doing something in the wrong location. I think if they would have ran the WCW return in a city like Atlanta there may have been a different response but they were also foolish not to make big money plays to bring in guys like Eric Bishoff, Ric Flair, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Hogan, Sting, Rey Mysterio, Goldberg, etc. That would have at least resembled the WCW that was popular rather than the one that died. You have to wonder, if the crowd didn't totally shit on Buff vs. Booker, the landscape of the business could be drastically different today. I mean, they at least appeared to have serious interest in bringing WCW back to the point of giving them 20 minutes on Raw, bringing in an announce team, changing the lighting and even having a WCW ring apron and logo on the screen.

 

All the big names were pretty much content to sit out the remainder of their deals with Time Warner. Their contracts were guarentteed so nothing could be done without their aproval. WWE didn't pay its talent as much as Time Warner did, so there would have been a disparity. And the WCW wrestlers obviously weren't going to take a pay cut when they could get paid more money to do nothing. Only Booker T and DDP thought otherwise and bought out. Flair bought out after invasion of course. Despite the lack of Star power, the more talented WCW wrestlers could have been pushed and made into new stars. A long with the ECW talent that was brought in. Of course we all know how they failed on that end.

 

The failure of the match contributed to why plans were changed for the new WCW. With WCW being quickly changed into a heel faction allying with ECW not long after. However, the failure to secure a tv slot for WCW really did things in. If WCW could have gotten its own show it could have been rebuilt. They couldn't get a slot for WCW on TNN. At one point I the alliance was supposed to gain control of Raw but plans were changed. I think the Brand Extension was orgiinally supposed to separate the WWE and Alliance Wrestlers. Of course we all know that they had a draft instead. So really WCW failed to relaunch as its own brand, due to lack of air time. But bombing on WWE TV didn't help WCW's chances at all.

 

Whether WWE is handling the rebirth of ECW right or wrong, at least they have a tv deal in place. Which already places them ahead of where WCW was at the beginning of the Invasion storyline.

[Enigma 0]

There were no rest holds on WWF tv at that time. Even though the Russo era was long-gone they were still very much following the crash tv format with a lot of backstage stuff and really short matches. It was also a case of timing and doing something in the wrong location. I think if they would have ran the WCW return in a city like Atlanta there may have been a different response but they were also foolish not to make big money plays to bring in guys like Eric Bishoff, Ric Flair, Scott Hall, Kevin Nash, Hogan, Sting, Rey Mysterio, Goldberg, etc. That would have at least resembled the WCW that was popular rather than the one that died. You have to wonder, if the crowd didn't totally shit on Buff vs. Booker, the landscape of the business could be drastically different today. I mean, they at least appeared to have serious interest in bringing WCW back to the point of giving them 20 minutes on Raw, bringing in an announce team, changing the lighting and even having a WCW ring apron and logo on the screen.

I've always wondered why they didn't wait one more week and do the WCW thing in Atlanta, which is where Raw was taking place the next week.

[Guest goar]

I was at the show that night, and even though I've tried blocking that out of my mind, I think I can remember why we hated it so much.

 

First off, there was really a sense of "history will be made tonight" floating around the building. The buzz before the show started was bigger than any WWF/E show I've been to, save WrestleMania XIX. After all it was the first WCW match in a WWF ring. And although we knew it was going to be Buff vs. Booker (I think), everyone expected more out of the whole thing. You know, unannounced run-ins. Maybe Goldberg, or Hogan, or Sting, or Flair.

 

Second, Tacoma was never WCW country. To my knowledge WCW ran that area two, maybe three times EVER. A lot of those people had little knowledge of the wrestlers in the ring.

 

Third, it was really boring.

 

Fourth, there were NO good matches on the entire card. The entire night was set up for that match to BE the show, and it didn't deliver. We were already bored coming into the match and they didn't do anything to get us excited.

 

Fifth, we had to sit through these terrible Vince McMahon/Torrie Wilson skits all night, leading up to the main event. In fact, after the beatdown on Booker and Buff there was one final skit ending with Vince's pants around his ankles and Linda McMahon catching him waiting for some action with Torrie. As if things weren't bad enough, we ended with Vince's ass.

 

I have never been in an arena that large, with that many pissed off people. I remember turning to my girlfriend and saying, "That's it? That was 'history?'" Coming out of the building there were people screaming and cussing that they'd waited twenty years to see WCW in WWF and they saw that. Usually coming out of a WWF/E event you have people that are excited by the whole thing, giving the "I just had the time of my life" vibe, and others maybe mumbling disappointment, but the majority in a good mood. I can only remember two reactions at this event. Stunned "I can't believe I spent that much money to see Buff Bagwell and Vince McMahon's ass" silence, and extremely vocal "I may never watch this shit again" anger.

[Guest Felonies!]

I wonder what Dave Meltzer's magical invasion idea was.

[TheInsane 0]

I was at the show that night, and even though I've tried blocking that out of my mind, I think I can remember why we hated it so much.

 

First off, there was really a sense of "history will be made tonight" floating around the building. The buzz before the show started was bigger than any WWF/E show I've been to, save WrestleMania XIX. After all it was the first WCW match in a WWF ring. And although we knew it was going to be Buff vs. Booker (I think), everyone expected more out of the whole thing. You know, unannounced run-ins. Maybe Goldberg, or Hogan, or Sting, or Flair.

 

Second, Tacoma was never WCW country. To my knowledge WCW ran that area two, maybe three times EVER. A lot of those people had little knowledge of the wrestlers in the ring.

 

Third, it was really boring.

 

Fourth, there were NO good matches on the entire card. The entire night was set up for that match to BE the show, and it didn't deliver. We were already bored coming into the match and they didn't do anything to get us excited.

 

Fifth, we had to sit through these terrible Vince McMahon/Torrie Wilson skits all night, leading up to the main event. In fact, after the beatdown on Booker and Buff there was one final skit ending with Vince's pants around his ankles and Linda McMahon catching him waiting for some action with Torrie. As if things weren't bad enough, we ended with Vince's ass.

 

I have never been in an arena that large, with that many pissed off people. I remember turning to my girlfriend and saying, "That's it? That was 'history?'" Coming out of the building there were people screaming and cussing that they'd waited twenty years to see WCW in WWF and they saw that. Usually coming out of a WWF/E event you have people that are excited by the whole thing, giving the "I just had the time of my life" vibe, and others maybe mumbling disappointment, but the majority in a good mood. I can only remember two reactions at this event. Stunned "I can't believe I spent that much money to see Buff Bagwell and Vince McMahon's ass" silence, and extremely vocal "I may never watch this shit again" anger.

 

Thanks for this. It put things into perspective on a deeper level.

[Guest Gary Busey]

I wonder what Dave Meltzer's magical invasion idea was.

Yeah, he always used to talk about this amazing idea he had and proposed to Vince but they never used it. He says he won't say what it was because it could still be used and make business boom.

[Vampiro69 0]

I belive that part of Meltzer's idea was that for WCW to be successful they had to win the Invaison. I don't think that Meltzer and Vince have really talked since.

[cabbageboy 0]

In my view, putting that pathetic 2001 WCW roster over the 2001 WWF roster would have been insanity. This was not the loaded 1998 WCW roster here. Nobody bought most of those guys on a main event level in WCW, much less the WWF.

 

People act like having all those stars would have made this huge difference. Why? In the next couple of years they brought in most of those guys and damn near all of them sucked, had bad matches, and/or didn't draw. If they had been there in 2001 they would have just sucked 2 years earlier.

[buffybeast 0]

Who the hell was the ring announcer for that match? She was fucking horrible.

 

I forgot how short Book's hair used to be.

 

The match was decent. But like everyone here said, Buff sucks sweaty balls.

[Jericholic82 0]

Who the hell was the ring announcer for that match? She was fucking horrible.

 

I forgot how short Book's hair used to be.

 

The match was decent. But like everyone here said, Buff sucks sweaty balls.

wasnt it Stacy Keibler?

 

 

anyhow I have the match on tape, and its not as bad as youd htink. The problem is, aside form the lame roster they got, the WWF had been training its fans for years to think WCW sucked and was nothing, so why would they like it?

[reign 0]

It irritates me to no end to remember this...and people may have hated Bagwell but from what I remember he was pretty good as a heal and Booker was over as a face...everybody should've had a hand in this match and made sure that there was none of this rest hold shit and had them go right at it with high impact moves and such..the problem is that even after this whole fiasco called Invasion, Vince is doing the same thing with ECW...

[Guest Legend & Icon]

I remember the match and it was really bad. One of the worse matches ever. It was done with play by play by WCW on Raw. Man it sucked like hell.

I watch the match back just to laugh at it.

[Shooting Star 0]

Worse ever? I actually like this match...not bad at all, not my favorite but I don't see why it gets all this hate. I remember being on WWF Chat while watching the match and everyone bitching about how bad the whole Raw had been.

 

 

I'd think Tacoma would be more fond of WCW since the last great WCW PPV took place in that same arena.

[Internet Warfare 0]

Buff's pyro was kinda cool. =l