Middle East Tensions Exploding

[Guest Hemme]

After watching the news today and seeing that 8 innocent Canadians died today in more bombings I've become convinced that the world would flow a lot smoother if the entire Middle East is just wiped off this planet.

A bit harsh there mate, I'm sure there are people on all sides who'd rather live in peace & want no part of this violence.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

to clarify my own thoughts, i have absolutely no problem with israel attacking hezbollah along the border where they camp out. I even have little problem with attacking targets that are clearly hezbollah targets in Beirut... but only something like 12 of 100 targets hit were clearly hezbollah targets!!! This is different than the Hamas strikes, where there is a clear and tangible hamas terrorist leader they are taking out and unfortunatly others are hit.

i dont care if someone is arab, jewish, iranian, whatever, if they deliberatly target innocent civilians, they're scum, period. it doesnt matter why they're doing it, what the cause it, what their goal is, i dont care what the jews did to your village, i dont care what the nazis did to your grandfather, what the provocation is. i simply dont care.

It is the clearest, non-bullshit, non-biased way to draw a line between good guys and bad guys.

As you might gather, no i dont have much respect for either of the sides, and i dont really believe in the idea of using your opponents morality as a gauge of whats right and wrong. "Not as bad as the enemy" is not good, period.

[Guest BrokenWings]

to clarify my own thoughts, i have absolutely no problem with israel attacking hezbollah along the border where they camp out. I even have little problem with attacking targets that are clearly hezbollah targets in Beirut... but only something like 12 of 100 targets hit were clearly hezbollah targets

 

Many of the targets being hit are to keep them from moving the abducted out of the country. (Airport, major bridges, all main roads out of Beirut).

 

They're not trying to make life difficult for the civilian population, otherwise they would bomb water treatment facilities, hospitals or other civilian infrastructure. Why would they be wasting time and money with precision munitions instead of regular falling bombs to take out the whole city?

 

It's a war. Civilians, unfortunately, die. They're not the targets, however.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert has laid out demands to be met, before an Israeli withdrawal of military operations from Lebanon. They seem reasonable to me:

 

[couldn't get link to work, so to summarize]:

 

- The two kidnapped Israeli soldiers must be freed.

- Rocket attacks against Israel stop.

- The Lebanese army must deploy along their southern border.

 

Really, is that asking so much at this point? Story is on Yahoo's front page news section, if you want to read further.

[Guest Hemme]

Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert has laid out demands to be met, before an Israeli withdrawal of military operations from Lebanon. They seem reasonable to me:

 

[couldn't get link to work, so to summarize]:

 

- The two kidnapped Israeli soldiers must be freed.

- Rocket attacks against Israel stop.

- The Lebanese army must deploy along their southern border.

 

Really, is that asking so much at this point? Story is on Yahoo's front page news section, if you want to read further.

OK yeah that sounds reasonable, sadly though I'm sure Lebanon will have their list of demands too, it's then just a question who will make the first move, at this point I cant see either side backing down.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Well, frankly, it's Hezbollah that is responsible, not Lebanon, so I don't know why Lebanon would be making any demands, other than for Israel to stop their current military actions. Lebanon's government should be moving to stop Hezbollah as well. However, it seems like Lebanon is paralyzed to take action, and becoming more clear that Syria and Iran have tremendous influence in this.

 

Hey, where's that UN thing that was set up to mediate stuff like this?

[Guest Hemme]

Well, frankly, it's Hezbollah that is responsible, not Lebanon, so I don't know why Lebanon would be making any demands, other than for Israel to stop their current military actions. Lebanon's government should be moving to stop Hezbollah as well. However, it seems like Lebanon is paralyzed to take action, and becoming more clear that Syria and Iran have tremendous influence in this.

 

Hey, where's that UN thing that was set up to mediate stuff like this?

It's Lebanon who are getting the shit pounded out of them, they're not really going to let Isreal away with it so easily.

I do agree though, that there is more to this conflict than meets the eye, with other factions being involved.

 

The fact is the UN isnt worth shit, they only have powers on paper, they cant actually do anything, it's bullshit really.

[pappajacks 0]

I am very surprised that americans continue to give unconditional support to Israel.

 

According to a research by American economist Thomas Stauffer in 2002, Israel has cost the US $1.6 trillion since 1973. And that's not counting all the secondary effects of giving Israel unconditional support, such as terrorist attacks on american soil and on americans abroad.

 

israel has been an economic drain for the US. Would we support any other country in the world that costed us 2 trillion dollars since the 1970's, hate from close to a billion people and terrorist attacks on american soil? America has gained nothing from its association with israel since israel's creation in 1948. It has been an economic and diplomatic disaster for the States, probably the biggest of the States' history. israel has only given the States headache after headache, costly and deadly ones.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

2 trillion dollars over 30 years is a drop in the bucket, considering the overall US budget, and economy. Also, trying to get this down to simply an economic argument is simplistic at best, not taking into account the broader picture.

 

Look at how much money the US spends on oil every year, and what has that gotten us? I'm guessing our country has given the Arab world more than 2 trillion dollars in 30 years! Much, much, more, in all likelihood.

 

It's clear that the greatest enemy we have in 2006 is radical Islamic terrorism, and their main target is Israel, with the US being a secondary target. Therefore, we must work with and protect them, to help them defeat the enemy barbarians.

[Danville_Wrestling 0]

Yea, two trillion over 30 years is a drop in the bucket considering how the federal budget today stands at around three trillion a year, at least according to the newest issue of the Economist magazine.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yea, two trillion over 30 years is a drop in the bucket considering how the federal budget today stands at around three trillion a year, at least according to the newest issue of the Economist magazine.

 

Exactly. Anyone who's complaining about how much we spend on Israel is probably another "anti-Zionist", anyway.

[SuperJerk 0]

Yea, two trillion over 30 years is a drop in the bucket considering how the federal budget today stands at around three trillion a year, at least according to the newest issue of the Economist magazine.

2.7 trillion to be exact.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/pdf/hist.pdf

 

$2 trillion over 30 years is not what I'd classify as "a drop in the bucket". That's an average of $66.7 billion you're talking about.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Well, I'm agree it's not a small amount, but taken in context of overall US expenditures, it's still not all that much.

 

I do feel government spending in general needs to be curtailed, but that isn't going to happen under President George W. Bush.

 

Israel, does need to be supported by us, and should be supported by all the other civilized free democracies of the world.

[Red Baron 0]

Why doesn't anyone invade and bring down the Hezbollah instead of X amount of days bombing them. Would get things done much quicker.

[cbacon 0]

Logistically difficult.

[Red Baron 0]

How so, they ran over Iraq within weeks and left the country in disarray

[Dobbs 3K 0]

The problem with actually taking out Hezbollah is that inevitably, innocent Lebanese would be killed, and the Western media would portray it as Israelis slaughtering people indiscriminantly, not noting the fact that Hezbollah sets up in civilian neighborhoods.

[Red Baron 0]

Innocents die in times of war.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yes, I understand that, but the media spins it to "Israel is being unrestrained, and Lebanese people who have nothing to do with this conflict are being killed by Israeli troops yet again."

[cbacon 0]

UN: Security Council must adopt urgent measures to protect civilians in Israel-Lebanon conflict

 

Press release, 07/18/2006

 

Amnesty International today called on the UN Security Council to meet urgently in order to adopt measures to protect civilians caught up in the deepening Israel-Lebanon conflict. The organization deplored the failure of G8 member states to put the protection of civilians above politics in their discussions of the conflict and condemned continuing attacks on civilian by both Israel and Hizbullah.

 

"The past few days has seen a horrendous escalation in attacks against civilians and civilian infrastructure. Yet the G8 leaders have failed conspicuously to uphold their moral and legal obligation to address such blatant breaches of international humanitarian law, which in some cases have amounted to war crimes." said Malcolm Smart, Director of Amnesty International’s Middle East Programme.

 

“Beyond the blame game exercise, what is needed are concrete proposals for urgent action to stop the killings of civilians in both Lebanon and Israel."

 

Specifically, Amnesty International called on the UN Security Council to authorise and deploy an immediate United Nations fact-finding mission to Lebanon and Israel to investigate attacks against civilians and civilian objects and other breaches of international humanitarian law. The UN mission should make concrete recommendations for measures to be taken by the concerned parties to spare civilian lives, including considering whether to strengthen the existing UN Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) or deploy a different international peace keeping force - in order to ensure the effective protection of civilians and civilian infrastructure. The organization also called on the Council to order the suspension of all military supplies to Israel and Hizbullah until each party institutes the appropriate measures to ensure that civilians and civilian objects are not attacked.

 

A UN fact-finding investigation should be adequately resourced. It should be conducted by impartial investigators with the necessary expertise in the conduct of criminal and forensic investigations. It should include experts in the field of forensics, ballistics, human rights and humanitarian law. All parties -- Israeli and Lebanese -- should agree to cooperate fully and grant the experts unimpeded access to people, places and documents.

 

In Lebanon, it is civilians who are paying the heaviest price of the Israeli bombing campaign. At least 200 civilians, including dozens of children, are reported to be among some 215 Lebanese killed by Israeli air strikes in Lebanon since 12 July. In the same period, Hizbullah’s armed wing has killed 12 Israeli civilians, including one child, in rocket attacks into Northern Israel, as well as 12 soldiers. Hundreds of others, including many civilians, have been injured on both sides.

 

Israeli forces have carried out large-scale destruction of civilian infrastructure throughout Lebanon, deliberately targeting and destroying dozens of bridges, roads, powers stations, the international airport and ports, grain silos and other facilities. Tens of thousands of civilians have been forced to flee their homes, notably in South Lebanon and in the suburbs of the capital, Beirut.

 

Hizbullah has also shown disregard for civilian lives by deliberately firing hundreds of katyusha and other rockets into towns and villages in Northern Israel, killing several Israeli civilians and injuring many more, and causing substantial damage to homes and other civilian properties.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Newt Gingrich was talking about how this is going to start WWIII

 

Its time the US takes a firm stand and wipes Iran off the face of the earth.

 

I'd then drop a series of nukes over Tehran. I would NOT go in with troops. 5 planes, 5 nukes, 5 strikes.

 

The reconstruction of Iran would be similar to the reconstruction of Japan. It would take time. But this is a noble fight worth winning.

 

Noted.

[Red Baron 0]

Yes, I understand that, but the media spins it to "Israel is being unrestrained, and Lebanese people who have nothing to do with this conflict are being killed by Israeli troops yet again."

 

Fuck the media. Fuck em. Their cynist assholes who would give two shits about some hell hole they don't care about.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

the massive tone shifts in dead civilians is what turns me off to people in these kind of discussions. i couldnt give a crap about hezbollah and thier bullshit, but people go from being apopleptic about a dead civilian on one side to just shrugging and saying 'meh that's war, innocents die' when another side's family gets blown away. this of course goes both ways. well you know what, I'm sure some fuckwit suicide bomber is sitting in his cave or room thinking 'meh this is war, innocents die, we gotta free our people and we aint got tanks so this our weapon" before running off to some cafe to blow himself up and take a few kids with him. It makes me think that people really couldnt give a crap about civilians dead, its like politics, where people muster outrage to make their side look good.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Anyone else feel that the cable news media seems to be favoring the Lebanese side a little too much on this? I'm not a Sean Hannity type "the liberal media is distorting the whole story" guy, but we don't hear much about how many Israelis have to hide in bomb shelters, etc. We get plenty of interviews about Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians though.

 

Also, Hezbollah bombed Nazareth today, a site of significance to Christians (and some Jews). However, I doubt we'll see the media getting worked up about this like they did when US marines attacked a mosque in Iraq where terrorists were holed up last year.

[NoCalMike 0]

I heard somewhere that the reason the Israeli army guys were kidnapped is because Hezbollah wanted a bunch of women and children released from prison or something.....is this just hub bub?

[Dobbs 3K 0]

The women and children thing is lies. They want fellow terrorists released in a swap.

[Guest Vitamin X]

the massive tone shifts in dead civilians is what turns me off to people in these kind of discussions. i couldnt give a crap about hezbollah and thier bullshit, but people go from being apopleptic about a dead civilian on one side to just shrugging and saying 'meh that's war, innocents die' when another side's family gets blown away. this of course goes both ways. well you know what, I'm sure some fuckwit suicide bomber is sitting in his cave or room thinking 'meh this is war, innocents die, we gotta free our people and we aint got tanks so this our weapon" before running off to some cafe to blow himself up and take a few kids with him. It makes me think that people really couldnt give a crap about civilians dead, its like politics, where people muster outrage to make their side look good.

 

You ever seen The Battle of Algiers? If you haven't, and this goes for anyone else in this thread, check it out.

 

The film was made over 40 years ago I believe, and it's still incredibly relevant to what goes on (and if anything shows how little things have changed since then as well).

[pappajacks 0]

I heard somewhere that the reason the Israeli army guys were kidnapped is because Hezbollah wanted a bunch of women and children released from prison or something.....is this just hub bub?

 

israel holds in its prisons many (palestinians say thousands, more conservative humanitarian groups say hundreds) prisoners that were never charged with a crime nor put on trial.

 

Someone on my basketball team (a Christian Palestinian) told me that his aunt and her two children were captured by israeli forces during a raid 9 years ago. His aunt worked with foreign humanitarian groups condemning Israel's occupation and oppression of the palestinian people. She was Catholic (maronite) and not affiliated with any terrorist group. To this day, my friend has never heard from his aunt nor has she been charged with a crime or put in front of a trial.

 

The goal of hizbollah by capturing the israeli soldiers was to negoatiate a trade for prisoners. Whether hizbollah wanted in return innocent women/children or former terrorists, I do not know. But what I do know is that not everyone held in israeli prisons are guilty.

[cbacon 0]

I'm not a Sean Hannity type

 

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

the massive tone shifts in dead civilians is what turns me off to people in these kind of discussions. i couldnt give a crap about hezbollah and thier bullshit, but people go from being apopleptic about a dead civilian on one side to just shrugging and saying 'meh that's war, innocents die' when another side's family gets blown away. this of course goes both ways. well you know what, I'm sure some fuckwit suicide bomber is sitting in his cave or room thinking 'meh this is war, innocents die, we gotta free our people and we aint got tanks so this our weapon" before running off to some cafe to blow himself up and take a few kids with him. It makes me think that people really couldnt give a crap about civilians dead, its like politics, where people muster outrage to make their side look good.

I know you brushed off intent earlier in the thread, but like it or not intent IS the entire crux of the issue. Israel/US are not TARGETING innocent people to accomplish their goals, whereas it is an AIM of Hezbollah to kill innocent people. I can't speak for other people, but do I really need to type a paragraph lamenting the loss of innocent lives EVERY SINGLE time I post in this thread?

 

For me, losing innocent lives is very sad, but if it's a necessary byproduct of rooting out terrorism as opposed to a stated goal, then in this case it's something that unfortunately must be done.

 

Intent is everything.