The influcence of mixed martial arts in pro wrestling

[Lord of The Curry 0]

First off, this is meant to be a serious thread and I'll try to be on my best behaviour. But don't be stupid. If you don't know anything about MMA then don't talk like you do or come in here just to insult it. If you've got a question, ask. I won't bite. The threads purpose is to get a general opinion on the rise of MMA and the influence we now see peaking through in pro wrestling.

 

Unless you've been living under some kind of sound and sight-proof rock, mixed martial arts is becoming big. Really big. A lot of people wouldn't admit a year ago that we'd be seeing the influence take hold of pro wrestling and more specifically WWE but it's here. The question now is how big can/will it get?

 

I'd be remiss to point out the biggest problem that WWE and other companies will face is the simplest one: MMA is real. Anybody who knew anything about strikes or, more specifically submissions knew that it would be hard to cross over into the pro wrestling realm because MMA moves just weren't over in North America. Japan was another story as the UWF-i promotion became quite successful doing worked shoot-fights and the idea of submission finishers that would cause an instant tapout became big. In WWE and WCW you'd see somebody in an armbar for a good thirty seconds or so before they reversed the move.

 

Credit must be given to NWA-TNA for forwarding the concept of submissions with Samoa Joe's rear naked choke, probably one of the best submission finishers in quite some time. Why? Because it's quick and dirty. Joe locks it in hard and forcefully and the opponent rarely lasts more then a few seconds before tapping, just like would happen in real life (or you pass out, something TNA also used with the finish to the AJ Styles vs Samoa Joe X-Division title match).

 

Now on WWE tv in the last month we've seen the introduction of CM Punk and Sylvester Terkay, two wrestlers whose gimmicks are MMA-oriented, both using submissions as finishers. Terkay wears vale-tudo (another term for no holds barred) gloves and in his Smackdown bio they talk about his former career as an MMA fighter. I haven't seen him wrestle so I can't really comment on his believeability. The CM Punk match against Justin Credible was a little more obvious. For one, the interlocked-hands motion that Punk did in his corner before his match was directly taken from a Brazillian fighter named Wanderlei Silva who's been doing that for years and years now. On commentary Tazz talks about Punks training in Brazillian jiu-jitsu and during the course of the fight Punk was using things like the side-mount, full-mount, spinning back fists and Muay-Thai clinch knees.

 

So, what are your thoughts? Good idea? Good idea in practice until the the fans realize that they can tune in on SpikeTV and see the real stuff? Horrible idea?

 

Discuss.

 

PS- I neglected to mention Taker's absolutely shitty triangle choke that nobody except for Big Show has tapped out to. But it's Taker so I don't mind.

[Broward83 0]

Meh, I think its a good idea if done with the right sort of people.

 

I think the WWE really missed the boat with Shammy when he was with the company...had the MMA craze been a bit bigger at that time, I totally could've seen Shamrock as WWE(F) champion for a long period of time as the methodical bad-ass that can actually out "wrestle" his opponents.

 

My fear is this thing gets overused and starts to turn people off of not only MMA, but the WWE as well.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I can't see how poorly worked MMA moves would turn true MMA fans off the sport.

[snuffbox 0]

It can only be a good thing for pro wrestling if the most competent workers do mma-based spot, like Samoa Joe. If too many, or the wrong workers, try then it will make pro wrestling look even weaker/faker. It is probably in the wwe's best interest to keep their hosses as far away from realistic-looking submissions as possible...and that includes Lazytaker's efforts.

 

I don't see how it could be anything bad for mma though.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I think the biggest thing will be consistency. It'll look goofy if Flair can put somebody in the figure-four for a minute plus and then have Punk tap people out in a few seconds.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Ric Flair should've retired a while ago

[Hawk 34 0]

MMA is fighting the initial doubts from skeptics that it's merely a niche sport like the X games did a decade ago. Very few people will doubt the legitimate claim that X Games are beyond a niche sport.

 

MMA is getting out of that realm of doubt and inching closer towards a respected viewpoint from mainstream public and media.

 

MMA, is clearly having an effect on wrestling and WWE as a whole. Its subtle right now but growing.

 

The obvious part being workers incorporating MMA into their work. This is very obvious on the independent circuit as the current trend is to work a shoot style offense.

 

ROH and TNA already submit to the influence of MMA and will not deny it. WWE, is clearly realizing the popularity that MMA is reaching. It'll be another year or two before it becomes more apparent but it's seeping into the WWE.

 

I'm curious to know if Vince is using MMA to take away from the UFC crowd by glamorizing the concept or does he really believe MMA has a place in his company? Vince has used MMA once with Shamrock but he presented UFC as a novel niche market where Shamrock was too big for and had to come to WWF for more "legit" challengers.

 

Heyman is clearly a mark for MMA and that is seen in the introduction of CM Punk. It's just a matter of the perception Vince has for MMA.

[snuffbox 0]

More mma-style spots in the wwe could hopefully mean less atrocities like Justin Credible's 'half-crab' on ecw this week.

 

And the stfu would look pretty sad in comparison.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I can't see them going as far as to give somebody a strike-oriented finisher, the closest they've come is Benjamin using a high kick which he does fairly well for a guy with (to my knowledge) no previous expirience.

[cameron chaos 0]

I don't see why they bother. Vince's "shades of grey" speech in '97 basically established the worked nature of the business by the company president. Their choice to not acknowledge Puder's kimura on Angle which could have been played into a decent angle (Olympic wrestler vs Shootfighter a la Jackson vs Shamrock) indicated a lack of desire to pursue anything "real" even in a worked environment. Hell, the fact anyone even bounces off the ropes shows how fake it is. I'd say they are better off leaving wrestling as false violence for entertainment with "storylines" filling the gaps than trying to integrate realism into it when it's been established time and time again it isn't real at all.

 

Jindrak and Jordan used one punch finishers for a while but wrestling fans don't mark for them because they are conditioned to the spectacle of wrestling and take springboard maneuvers as being more effective. HHH's knees are transitional moves even though if real they'd probably knock most guys goofy. There's no point in being selective in enforcing "reality", in the end it will make their attempts to do so look even more ridiculous.

[World's Worst Man 0]

MMA is a big reason why wrestling in Japan hit the skids. Then again, wrestling in the US hasn't been looked at as athletic competition in years, like it has been in Japan, so it might not have that same impact. I mean, I don't see any WWE fans turning to MMA because it exposed WWE as being fake. Realistically, most people watch WWE for the angles and characters. The people who actually care about wrestling quality are watching indy and Japanese wrestling. And many of those people either like MMA or differentiate between MMA and pro-wrestling. Personally, MMA can't replace pro-wrestling and vice versa. Worked fights and shoot fights are two different forms of entertainemtnt to me, and one doesn't replace the other.

 

So to sum it up, I don't think MMA will have much of an impact on WWE. I just don't think the WWE has the sort of fans who would turn on the character driven WWE product for an athletically driven product like UFC.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

I don't see why they bother. Vince's "shades of grey" speech in '97 basically established the worked nature of the business by the company president. Their choice to not ackowledge Puder's kimura on Angle which could have been played into a decent angle indicated a lack of desire to pursue anything "real" even in a worked environment. Hell, the fact anyone even bounces off the ropes shows how fake it is. I'd say they are better off leaving wrestling as false violence for entertainment than trying to integrate realism into it when it's been established time and time again it isn't real at all.

 

Jindrak and Jordan used one punch finishers for a while but wrestling fans don't mark for them because they are conditioned to the spectacle of wrestling. HHH's knees are transitional moves even though if real they'd probably knock most guys goofy.

 

Having Puder show up as the guy to take out Angle while he was running his hometown hero challenge was the most perfect angle they never pulled off. Instead we got Eugene. Way to go, WWE.

[Scroby 0]

Wrestlers using MMA moves or movesets are fine with me. Wrestlers using MMA as a gimmick is fine with me. I just don't want to see a overload of wrestlers either using a MMA gimmick or just about every wrestler using some sort of MMA move. For wrestling, its good for a "oh-ah" kind of spot or a "This guy is a serious fighter or technichen in the ring." (very bad spelling, I know, I'm sorry). I like stuff from the MMA but I just don't want to see it over used in wrestling.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

Another question: How many pro-wrestling fans on this board would find themselves interested in MMA if WWE made a serious go at incorporating more MMA influences into their matches?

[cameron chaos 0]

I don't see why they bother. Vince's "shades of grey" speech in '97 basically established the worked nature of the business by the company president. Their choice to not ackowledge Puder's kimura on Angle which could have been played into a decent angle indicated a lack of desire to pursue anything "real" even in a worked environment. Hell, the fact anyone even bounces off the ropes shows how fake it is. I'd say they are better off leaving wrestling as false violence for entertainment than trying to integrate realism into it when it's been established time and time again it isn't real at all.

 

Jindrak and Jordan used one punch finishers for a while but wrestling fans don't mark for them because they are conditioned to the spectacle of wrestling. HHH's knees are transitional moves even though if real they'd probably knock most guys goofy.

 

Having Puder show up as the guy to take out Angle while he was running his hometown hero challenge was the most perfect angle they never pulled off. Instead we got Eugene. Way to go, WWE.

 

Exactly. The angle was right there to capitalise on. Instead they paid him a quarter mill and released him early rather than setting up a possible asset to the company for future stardom. Even if Puder lost the match and went to OVW for further training after Angle "broke his ankle like that punk tried to break my arm" it would have at least made things more interesting for a few months.

 

If they want to go shoot style, go shoot style. But don't have one guy winning via kimura like Terkay when the next match has someone leaping off and bouncing around the ring ropes.

[Scroby 0]

Another question: How many pro-wrestling fans on this board would find themselves interested in MMA if WWE made a serious go at incorporating more MMA influences into their matches?

If it was little by litte, I'll be fine but if WWE just started heavily using MMA styles, it would turn me off. I'm already intrested in MMA but thats only with Pride. I don't know why, I just don't like watching UFC, I just fine Pride more intresting for some reason. With that being said, I really should start ordering the Pride PPV's so I can try to follow it.

[Vyce 0]

You know what my favorite soup is? Chicken Noodle. But not Campbells. Not CLASSIC Campbells, that is, no. I need a good Chunky brand Chicken Noodle, with ample chunks of chicken and big, thick egg noodles, alongside some celery, carrots and spices for flavoring. Other brands are okay, though, so long as I get the big noodles.

 

A nice homemade chicken noodle is good as well. Every now and again, I'll buy some noodles and just do it myself. Works out pretty well, and I usually have a good 2 or 3 nights worth of tasty soup to enjoy.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I can't see them going as far as to give somebody a strike-oriented finisher, the closest they've come is Benjamin using a high kick which he does fairly well for a guy with (to my knowledge) no previous expirience.

 

I think Regal had a knee strike there for awhile. Not sure what he's doing now.

 

The best thing MMA has going for it just may be the WWE. The WWE's silly factor is a detriment to a lot of fans and a lot of potential fans as well.

 

The worst thing about MMA is the same problem real fights had years and years ago. The same reason pro wrestling as we know it came to be -- You can't fix fight fights the way you want to for the utmost in excitement. Even MMA for the exact same reasons has done what prowrestling has done. They've modified the rules of their fights so they generate more excitement.

Now of course that's not to say there aren't exciting MMA fights because of course they are. However, are they on average as exciting as an average wrestling match? That's a question the fans will have to answer.

 

One other thing to keep in mind is this when comparing prowrestling to MMA -- Is the realness of an MMA fight greater than the guilt there is in watching it?

[cameron chaos 0]

You know what my favorite soup is? Chicken Noodle. But not Campbells. Not CLASSIC Campbells, that is, no. I need a good Chunky brand Chicken Noodle, with ample chunks of chicken and big, thick egg noodles, alongside some celery, carrots and spices for flavoring. Other brands are okay, though, so long as I get the big noodles.

 

A nice homemade chicken noodle is good as well. Every now and again, I'll buy some noodles and just do it myself. Works out pretty well, and I usually have a good 2 or 3 nights worth of tasty soup to enjoy.

 

So you like a mix but with consistency then... so do I.

 

Which is why I don't want to see an armbar that could finish as a transitional move in wrestling but a submission that can be easily countered used as a finisher.

[snuffbox 0]

One other thing to keep in mind is this when comparing prowrestling to MMA -- Is the realness of an MMA fight greater than the guilt there is in watching it?

 

Guilt in watching mma?

[cameron chaos 0]

One other thing to keep in mind is this when comparing prowrestling to MMA -- Is the realness of an MMA fight greater than the guilt there is than watching it?

 

As a fan of the sport and practitioner of martial arts this is stupid to me. Anyone that gets in a cage or ring does so of their own free will, has to meet certain medical and physical expectations and generally has enough amateur competitive experience to warrant an organisation and promoter booking them. If you feel any guilt knowing two adults who have chosen to compete are fighting and one guy is bound to lose one way or the other, you lack sack and respect for their individual responsibility.

[Hawk 34 0]

 

 

 

One other thing to keep in mind is this when comparing prowrestling to MMA -- Is the realness of an MMA fight greater than the guilt there is in watching it?

 

Guilt in watching mma?

 

If anything, a guilt for watching pro wrestling exists as it has always been a embarassment even during the peak points of business. MMA doesn't give fans a reason to feel guilty watching it.

 

MMA doesn't have a negative side to it like pro wrestling generates. Pro wrestling, has been viewed as a low class market (with supporting numbers to back it up).

 

So where is the guilt in MMA fandom now? In the early form of MMA, when it was decried as human cockfighting...that statement had more ground but not anymore.

[Guest wildpegasus]

 

 

 

One other thing to keep in mind is this when comparing prowrestling to MMA -- Is the realness of an MMA fight greater than the guilt there is in watching it?

 

Guilt in watching mma?

 

If anything, a guilt for watching pro wrestling exists as it has always been a embarassment even during the peak points of business. MMA doesn't give fans a reason to feel guilty watching it.

 

MMA doesn't have a negative side to it like pro wrestling generates. Pro wrestling, has been viewed as a low class market (with supporting numbers to back it up).

 

So where is the guilt in MMA fandom now? In the early form of MMA, when it was decried as human cockfighting...that statement had more ground but not anymore.

 

I'm pretty much talking about bringing new fans in. There are a lot of people that are just plain out disgusted from the violence of MMA. This is not an opinion but one hundred percent fact.

If MMA wants to strive to be as popular as possible than they have to get past that hurdle. It's probably their biggest obstacle.

 

And don't kid yourself. There are fans who feel somewhat guilty from watching the product.

[Guest wildpegasus]

If anything, a guilt for watching pro wrestling exists as it has always been a embarassment even during the peak points of business.

 

Yes, that's true. I mentioned that when I talked about the WWE's silliness.

[cameron chaos 0]

 

 

 

One other thing to keep in mind is this when comparing prowrestling to MMA -- Is the realness of an MMA fight greater than the guilt there is in watching it?

 

Guilt in watching mma?

 

If anything, a guilt for watching pro wrestling exists as it has always been a embarassment even during the peak points of business. MMA doesn't give fans a reason to feel guilty watching it.

 

MMA doesn't have a negative side to it like pro wrestling generates. Pro wrestling, has been viewed as a low class market (with supporting numbers to back it up).

 

So where is the guilt in MMA fandom now? In the early form of MMA, when it was decried as human cockfighting...that statement had more ground but not anymore.

 

I'm pretty much talking about bringing new fans in. There are a lot of people that are just plain out disgusted from the violence of MMA. This is not an opinion but one hundred percent fact.

If MMA wants to strive to be as popular as possible than they have to get past that hurdle. It's probably their biggest obstacle.

 

And don't kid yourself. There are fans who feel somewhat guilty from watching the product.

 

Then they shouldn't watch it. If they watch it and feel bad, that's their own stupidity for not using a remote control for it's appropriate purpose. Don't kill the messenger just because you don't like what they deliver.

 

Only 3 people have died as a result of competing in MMA, 2 of them were not medically cleared and none of the deaths occured in events sanctioned by state or national sports commitees. All of the fatalities have occured in unsanctioned events. Fatalities in sanctioned amateur and professional boxing, pro wrestling, pro wrestling training camps, American football, international soccer, hockey and even golf outnumber in thousands compared to the deaths in sanctioned MMA bouts: that number remains at 0. So technically, you should feel more guilty watching those sports than you should watching a sanctioned MMA event.

[Hawk 34 0]

So a soceity that craves violence in all forms is guilty about another avenue of violence? Boxing, before it's downfall was called the Sport Of Kings for a reason.

 

MMA is a sleeker and modernized upgrade of Boxing. Boxing has been an american staple since the early 1900's. The reason it has taken MMA long to get "over" here is because like most sports, it takes time to adjust from being a niche sport to mainstream sport.

 

MMA, has really only existed on a mainstream level in America for roughly a decade and it spent half that time fighting a negative image that has almost been wiped away.

 

X Game sports originated way back in the 1970's but it took years of building to become a legitimate mainstream entity. That's what MMA is going through right now.

 

People aren't guilty about watching something that is essentially the same world as boxing but only with a different design. If there was any guilt about MMA, it's via influence of a negative campaign from media and polticians years ago painting MMA in a bad light. That image has been absolved now.

[Guest wildpegasus]

People aren't guilty about watching something that is essentially the same world as boxing but only with a different design. If there was any guilt about MMA, it's via influence of a negative campaign from media and polticians years ago painting MMA in a bad light. That image has been absolved now.

 

And I disagree about that. The image has not been absolved as of current times. I still read newspaper articles about it. I still see mentions of it in other forms of media. I know people who think this way. That thought process is still out there in abundance.

[World's Worst Man 0]

People usually don't let the facts get in the way of their arguments. With MMA, especially.

[razazteca 0]

The one thing that I dislike about MMA crossing over to pro wrestling is the ref stoppage of a fight from strikes. The first match that made say WTF that's it thats the end of the fight you got to be kidding who the hell booked this crap was from NWA 53rd Anniversary Show World Heavyweight Championship match of Steve Corino vs Shinya Hashimoto where the ref stopped the match because Hashimoto would'nt stop stomping/kicking Corino in the corner. This finish continued to piss me off when it was copied for Edge vs Matt Hardy and the recent Great American Bash 2006 match of Mr. Kennedy vs Batista. The GAB match was the worst one because the stomps/kicks by Batista looked like a typical stalling move that everybody from Nash to every generic big man in the wrestling business does on a regular basis! The only time that it was somewhat believable was the Samoa Joe vs Christopher Daniels match from TNA Final Resolution 2006 but that was only because of the vicious elbow strikes Joe was doing and it fit into the storyline at the time of Joe wanting to draw blood the hardway.

 

But in general I think MMA influence into pro wrestling is a good thing maybe now armbars, headlocks, etc., will have more meaning and the end of the boring rest spots. Maybe instead of the wrestlers going for the headlock and taking a nap for 2 or 3 minutes spot will end and maybe they can go back to doing matwork like the old school NWA days of the 80's where chain wrestling, counters, and near falls came out of the headlock and armbar spots.

 

If strikes is to be a finisher in pro wrestling then it has to be something flashy and can come out of nowhere like a Flying Muai Thai Knee. I sure as hell don't want to see anything like Tank Abbot in WCW where one punch and only one punch would KO the opponet.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Haha Vyce is such a tard. Talk about horrible timing.

 

I agree with MisawaGQ; MMA is a sport to me, just like football, basketball, etc. Much like those sports, I watch it for competition's sake. Obviously some fighters are more appealing than others due to styles (Rich Franklin for one) but the point is that I'm not watching it as a spectacle, for the sole purpose of being entertained by two guys mixing it up, but I'm interested in who wins or loses. Sometimes I'm interested in a spectacle, which is why sometimes I will watch Pro Wrestling. They're two different entities though, although admittedly a little similar.

 

WWE is going down the wrong path with their being influenced by MMA. It might interest me slightly, and other MMA fans, but we won't last long. I guarantee I'll never buy a PPV. However, it might turn off traditional pro wrestling fans. If anything, he should go back to using the old school style where matches actually meant something and there was proper buildup. But that's another discussion.

 

Real fighting is more appealing to me than fake stuff, hence why I've been conditioned to mark out for guard passes and solid back-taking techniques, rather than watching corkscrew planchas or whatever. It all just seems so contrived.

[Guest the undeserving]

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