Wii

[World's Worst Man 0]

Wii Sports - Life and Death~!

 

The fact that you think Wii Sports isn't simplistic shows me that your definition of simplistic is grossly different from mine, which means there's no point in even arguing over it. The specific things you mentioned are incredibly easy to do and don't require any real skill on my part. Maybe it's different for other people, but quite frankly, it makes no difference to me. There are games that are tough for children, but easy for adults, does that mean I should concede that those games are actually difficult? In any case, once some full sports games come out, there will be a point of comparison for Wii Sports, and I really don't doubt that its gameplay will clearly be exposed in the face of sports games that aren't essentially just tech demos.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

GQ, out of curiosity, which of the Wii Sports games were you referring to as having unresponsive control? That's the sort of thing that didn't interest me on May 4th but now I need specifics!

 

From my experiences, Tennis is the best demo on the disc (rocks with 4 players), Bowling is a fun when I don't get yelled at for not releasing the button on time, I enjoy boxing but don't really know what I'm doing (sometimes he winds the punches up, sometimes not...), I enjoy swinging the wiimote like a baseball but find innings where I'm pitching to be dull, and golf is the worst. Everyone I know hates golf. Is this the unresponsive one?

[World's Worst Man 0]

I thought boxing was pretty awful as far as the control goes. I'm not sure if golf was unresponsive as much as it just wasn't very detailed in its tracking. Baseball controls pretty well, it's just too lacking in variety. Tennis probably has the deepest controls of any of the games, but the AI is crummy and there are easy exploits when playing against another person. And bowling is probably the most well-rounded of the games, but is still lacking many features that would give it some decent replay value. Bowling could easily be made into a good game without switching the core gameplay mechanics. Tennis would need to have player movement added, but the core gameplay is fine otherwise.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Add the nunchuck as a movement joystick and you have a good tennis game, but that would mean you would need 4 chucks. Generally at our Wii gatherings, I have a two remoted and a nunchuck and my other Wii owning friend (in the area, don't get offended GQ) also owns 2 remotes and one chuck. Basically, it's very easy for us to get 4 wiimotes but not 4 chucks.

[World's Worst Man 0]

It does get to be pretty pricey when you buy a remote and a nunchuk. It ends up being $10 more than a PS3 or Xbox 360 controller.

[The Man in Blak 0]

The fact that you think Wii Sports isn't simplistic shows me that your definition of simplistic is grossly different from mine, which means there's no point in even arguing over it. The specific things you mentioned are incredibly easy to do and don't require any real skill on my part. Maybe it's different for other people, but quite frankly, it makes no difference to me. There are games that are tough for children, but easy for adults, does that mean I should concede that those games are actually difficult?

 

No, you don't necessarily have to concede that those games are difficult, and I think your point actually touches on a major concern for Wii developers; is it worth constraining your audience to a particular gameplay approach/strategy to make them enjoy the game as intended?

 

It is easy for somebody to just sit on the couch, flick your wrist the right way, and throw a 95 mph fastball in the baseball game, rather than going through an actual pitching wind-up. However, even though it goes against the spirit of the game (which is actually getting up and making things happen in the game through realistic motion), placing restrictions on such an approach could limit your possible audience - Grandma may not be encouraged to play a game of baseball with her grandson if you have to go through a physically taxing super-realistic pitching motion every time you throw the ball.

 

So, keeping that in mind, it's obvious that Wii Sports caters to a wider audience, sacrificing realism for a way to reduce gameplay requirements. If you're looking for a more realistic tennis/baseball/etc. game and you're willing to meet the more difficult gameplay requirements, you'll obviously find a better alternative elsewhere down the line. But you can't ignore that there are many people out there who are just looking for a fun time playing a sports game, realism be damned, and they are the target audience for a game like Wii Sports. And, in my opinion, Wii Sports does a very good job of providing arcade-esque gameplay to that target audience (while offering limited appeal to diehards as well) without completely overwhelming them in the process.

 

Interestingly enough, I think your post actually demonstrates why you are seemingly incapable of having any fun with the Wii: if you're looking to win in Wii Sports without any physical exertion, why are you even playing the game? There are certainly elements in the game that I outlined in my previous post that cater to completionists, but "beating the game" isn't even the point here - the enjoyment of the game comes from just getting up and going through the motions.

 

In any case, once some full sports games come out, there will be a point of comparison for Wii Sports, and I really don't doubt that its gameplay will clearly be exposed in the face of sports games that aren't essentially just tech demos.

 

To a certain extent, you may very well be correct. Tiger Woods PGA Tour 07 has already shown a more realistic (and, more importantly, reliable) capture of the golf swing. There will no doubt be a tennis game that has more accurate spin control on a backhand, or a baseball game that offers tighter control over pitches and seamless transition into actual control over defense.

 

But, as I explained above, Wii Sports isn't intended to compete (and obviously can't compete) on the same level as full sports games that are designed specifically for that particular sport in mind. Golf fans that are looking for a super-realistic round of golf are obviously going to side with Tiger Woods, but the casual audience (which may very well include people that haven't even played the sport in question) doesn't have those expectations; they're just looking for a fun experience, and Wii Sports can offer that in a variety of different ways.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Are you saying that because the game is successful, I should think it's a good game? Just want to be clear on what you mean by bringing its success/appeal up, because while I would agree that it's been a success, I don't know what that has to do with the quality of the game. Success = quality is essentially an argumentum ad numerum fallacy.

 

It's rather presumptuous think that I've "mastered" the game only because I don't play it the "right way". I certainly don't use any of the shortcuts that can be used to make perfect game movements every time. I just happen to have excellent hand-eye coordination and athletic ability. And the difficulty of a game isn't necessarily tied to it's depth either.

 

Wii Sports vs. Full Sports Games - If game A has better gameplay than game B, I'll say game A is the better game. And the type of game really doesn't matter either, because it's quite possible for arcade-style games to have better gameplay than a simulation game, and vice versa. But whether one game appeals to a different audience means nothing to me. It would be depressing to go along with the crowd just for the sake of going along with the crowd. I can play the game and think for myself on whether the game is good or not.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

This is what I'm getting:

 

WWM: I don't like WiiSports that much. It's tech demos and some of them aren't that fun, but that's my opinion based on my skill level. I eagerly anticipate fully developed sports title that cater to my gameplay skill and not as a casual pick-up game.

 

MIB: WS is designed to be a casual pick-up game! You must recognize this and respect the fact that grandma and grandson can play tennis together so the controls are very simple!

 

And you're both right.

 

GQ seems to be condemned by the majority for disliking a game that he finds beneath his skill level. At no point has he said "Everyone on earth should hate this game" (though maybe what he has said could be interpeted that way) - he's stated his personal problems with the game without making anything up. Ditto goes for Chrono Trigger. If Grandma Jenkins and her 13 year old grandson Jamal are loving the quick, casual, and easy play of Wii Sports, great! If I think McDonald's Pizza was the best pizza ever and shouldn't have been discontinued, also great! Yeah, people can say "your taste is awful", but that's just their perogative.

 

I've been distracted at work and long since lost the message I was going for, but it's in there somewhere. Be cool to each other.

[The Man in Blak 0]

It's rather presumptuous think that I've "mastered" the game only because I don't play it the "right way". I certainly don't use any of the shortcuts that can be used to make perfect game movements every time. I just happen to have excellent hand-eye coordination and athletic ability. And the difficulty of a game isn't necessarily tied to it's depth either.

 

Okay, then I misread your response. When you explained that the results had came to you so easily, it appeared that you had achieved those results through the "shortcuts." If that's not the case, then I apologize.

 

With that in mind, though, I think it's worth considering that you are not a typical member of the target audience. No matter how accessible Wii Sports may be, it can't appeal to everybody - if you're athletic and you have excellent hand-eye coordination, why not go outside and play the actual games?

 

Are you saying that because the game is successful, I should think it's a good game? Just want to be clear on what you mean by bringing its success/appeal up, because while I would agree that it's been a success, I don't know what that has to do with the quality of the game. Success = quality is essentially an argumentum ad numerum fallacy.

 

Wii Sports vs. Full Sports Games - If game A has better gameplay than game B, I'll say game A is the better game. And the type of game really doesn't matter either, because it's quite possible for arcade-style games to have better gameplay than a simulation game, and vice versa. But whether one game appeals to a different audience means nothing to me. It would be depressing to go along with the crowd just for the sake of going along with the crowd. I can play the game and think for myself on whether the game is good or not.

 

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. (I do like that you dropped some Latin, though.)

 

I'm saying that the game's strength lies in the ease in which it offers quality motion-sensitive gameplay. The gameplay requirements are about as low as you can get - just about anybody can "pick up and play", so to speak - but the enjoyment that comes from the games is high (with some games being more enjoyable than others, admittedly). The game doesn't nail exact details for each sport like a simulation would, but doing so would likely add frustration to the player's experience, which would detract from the easy-going tone that the game is aiming to achieve.

 

Ultimately, I feel that the quality of the arcade-style gameplay, the accessibility, and the possibilities for long-term appeal (Wii Training, Wii Fitness, multiplayer with Miis) add up to make Wii Sports a valuable addition to the medium, especially when you consider that it's the pack-in software for the console. It won't offer the best baseball or golf experience that you will find on the console, but it does offer a gaming experience that can be fun for people of all types and ages.

 

Finally, I'm not citing the target audience to leverage the popularity of the game (though I'm glad that you agree that it is a success) but, rather, to establish a context for evaluating the game. Flatly declaring that "game A has a better gameplay than game B" does imply a context: for you, game A was more fun than game B. Such an evaluation doesn't really mean much for the gaming population at large, though, unless you take the target audience into consideration; one person's preferred 80 hour RPG can be another person's cure for insomnia.

[World's Worst Man 0]

I'll just add this because I'm a geek for this philosophical kind of stuff - People have different standards, and I don't think they should form opinions based on what others might think. Even if I was to write a review of the game, I would come to the conclusion based on my own standards. All you can ask of someone in that position is to accurately depict what the game is bringing to the table. You can't tell them to like it or dislike it. So I would say it's simplistic and limited, which makes it accessible for casual gamers, but it's not for someone who prefers more in-depth games. And me, being the latter, does not think much of the game. If the critique of the game actually has content (ie. it details how the game plays) people are allowed to come to their own conclusions based on what they want out of video gaming. Someone's 9/10 game is someone else's 6/10, even if they're both seeing the same things. That's the way it goes.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

I think some valid points have been made by all today. WWM especially made some strong points that all should be read and considered by all (note to GQ - inside joke we discussed on IRC).

[World's Worst Man 0]

Stop mocking me I am so going to strangle you in Manhunt 2. I am also fining you 10 Schrute bucks.

[The Man in Blak 0]

This is what I'm getting:

 

WWM: I don't like WiiSports that much. It's tech demos and some of them aren't that fun, but that's my opinion based on my skill level. I eagerly anticipate fully developed sports title that cater to my gameplay skill and not as a casual pick-up game.

 

MIB: WS is designed to be a casual pick-up game! You must recognize this and respect the fact that grandma and grandson can play tennis together so the controls are very simple!

 

And you're both right.

 

Wait, why do my sentences end in exclamation points?

 

I'll just add this because I'm a geek for this philosophical kind of stuff - People have different standards, and I don't think they should form opinions based on what others might think. Even if I was to write a review of the game, I would come to the conclusion based on my own standards. All you can ask of someone in that position is to accurately depict what the game is bringing to the table. You can't tell them to like it or dislike it. So I would say it's simplistic and limited, which makes it accessible for casual gamers, but it's not for someone who prefers more in-depth games. And me, being the latter, does not think much of the game.

 

Well, if that's the case, then I feel that you've got an inaccurate view of the game, but maybe we should just agree to disagree at this point. I won't argue that Wii Sports' appeal for somebody who enjoys more in-depth gaming isn't as high as it is for the casual gamer, but I do think that:

 

- there's a little more accessibility in there for hardcore gamers than at first glance (primarily through the multiplayer possibilities)

- it's more valuable to consider the casual audience when evaluating a game than the hardcore gamer, simply because there's much more of the former out there in the world

 

That's just me, though. Your mileage may vary.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

My conversation synopsi ("Synopsinations"... no, that word doesn't work) include exclamations for emphasis.

WWM: I think you missed what I was trying to say. Check your wall!

[dubq 0]

So what make is the best deal on an SD memory card?

 

Also - has there been any word on whether Manhunt 2 will have an online mode (or a versus mode with 2P)? I'd check now but gaming sites are blocked from my work.

[Guest Smues]

Rejected Wii Play games

[Matt Young 0]

Haha... That was pretty awesome, Smues. Thanks for the link.

[AlexPuma 0]

I'm picking up Scarface: The World Is Yours tomorrow, just because I'm hungry for a sandbox game to play on a console. I'll be certain to let you know how it turns out on the Wii. In fact, I'm going to watch the movie for the first time right now.

[Scroby 0]

I'm a horrible Wii owner, I haven't played the system in months, I haven't went out and bought any new games as nothing as appealed to me and if I want a game that is coming out for both the Wii and the 360, I buy it for the 360 instead of the Wii verison. I would be buying a lot of the VC games (espically Bonk and Minion's secret castle) but I haven't picked up a classic controller yet. I don't know why I haven't even attempted to play my Wii in such a long while or made an effort to pick up a classic controller but I just haven't.

 

So I'm going to try and make a better effort to play my Wii more often, What games would you guys recommand and why? And yes I already own Zelda. Oh and I should clearify I'm looking for games that have a good single player as I don't have enough controllers to really host anything multi-player.

[The Man in Blak 0]

Don't forget that you can play many of the VC games with the original Gamecube controller. (Right off the top of my head, I think the only emulated console that doesn't fit well with the GC controller is the Sega Genesis.)

 

In terms of non-Zelda VC recommendations, I think that the SNES games offer some of the best values out there. Actraiser, F-Zero, and Contra III are all great games that haven't been bundled into any other GC compilations, AFAIK. Kirby's Adventure is a tremendous NES game that clocks in at only 500 points. Once you grab a Classic controller, Beyond Oasis and Gunstar Heroes are definitely worthwhile Genesis pickups.

 

And don't pick up Milon's Secret Castle, unless you're prepared for a major challenge. That game is relentless.

[dubq 0]

I just put in an order through Amazon for Resident Evil 4 Wii and Manhunt 2. Trauma Center and Bust a Move are all well and good but I need me some good old fashioned zombie killing and insane asylum executions.

 

Seriously though, the new RE game slated for Hallowe'en looks awesome as well.

[Scroby 0]

Don't forget that you can play many of the VC games with the original Gamecube controller. (Right off the top of my head, I think the only emulated console that doesn't fit well with the GC controller is the Sega Genesis.)

 

In terms of non-Zelda VC recommendations, I think that the SNES games offer some of the best values out there. Actraiser, F-Zero, and Contra III are all great games that haven't been bundled into any other GC compilations, AFAIK. Kirby's Adventure is a tremendous NES game that clocks in at only 500 points. Once you grab a Classic controller, Beyond Oasis and Gunstar Heroes are definitely worthwhile Genesis pickups.

 

And don't pick up Milon's Secret Castle, unless you're prepared for a major challenge. That game is relentless.

Oh I know all about Milon's Secret Castle, I played it as a kid and still have that actual game at my mom's house somewhere. I know how hard it is and that's why I want to beat it.

[AlexPuma 0]

Well, I bought and played Scarface: The World is Yours for a few hours today. My impressions? First of all, the Wii controls take a bit getting used to. The aiming with the Wii Remote is great, but the camera control can be a bitch when stuck in a corner or jumped from behind. The 'taunting' by wiggling the nunchuck is a pointless addition though. I often find myself taunting at inopportune moments. Other than a few button placement issues, the controls of the game are great and really help the game. The game itself seems to be a decent sandbox game with a bit of depth in dealing coke with dealers and paying off heat with the police and local gangs. I haven't played much into the missions yet, but the game seems like a keeper so far.

[BUTT 0]

http://wii.ign.com/articles/796/796612p1.html

 

IGN is reporting that Nintendo has canceled Project H.A.M.M.E.R.

 

Too bad, I was looking forward to that game. Not EVERYTHING you put out has to be for your precious casual gamers, Nintendo.

[AndrewTS 0]

Reactions to the playable demos weren't very positive last year, so it could have been a QA measure too.

[dubq 0]

Well, I bought and played Scarface: The World is Yours for a few hours today. My impressions? First of all, the Wii controls take a bit getting used to. The aiming with the Wii Remote is great, but the camera control can be a bitch when stuck in a corner or jumped from behind. The 'taunting' by wiggling the nunchuck is a pointless addition though. I often find myself taunting at inopportune moments. Other than a few button placement issues, the controls of the game are great and really help the game. The game itself seems to be a decent sandbox game with a bit of depth in dealing coke with dealers and paying off heat with the police and local gangs. I haven't played much into the missions yet, but the game seems like a keeper so far.

 

IGN's review was saying that there were only certain routes you can take when on the way to missions or in chases. How does that effect the gameplay?

 

I'm really debating picking this up, or at least renting it. I'm not a Scarface fan or anything, but I'm interested in playing something GTA'ish on the Wii. Hoping that the Wii controls can inject some life into this tired and played out genre. =\

[AlexPuma 0]

IGN's review was saying that there were only certain routes you can take when on the way to missions or in chases. How does that effect the gameplay?

 

I'm really debating picking this up, or at least renting it. I'm not a Scarface fan or anything, but I'm interested in playing something GTA'ish on the Wii. Hoping that the Wii controls can inject some life into this tired and played out genre. =\

 

I think what they mean is the game sort of holds your hand in the beginning by showing you a recommended route while in a mission. From what I can tell, you don't need to follow the route, it's just there to show you where you need to go without taking a wrong turn and getting lost. The city is pretty confusing but does a better job at making the game feel like a real city than GTA does. The chases there has to be a certain distance between who you're chasing or you'd lose them, so it's no different than GTA. The gameplay seems to be deep enough to be a keeper, if you like sandbox games that is. It almost seems to be a drug trade simulator than just another GTA clone.

 

The extent of the Wii controls seem to be camera control, aiming, and shaking the nunchuck to taunt and go into Blind Rage mode, so if you played any other version of the game, the controls won't suddenly make it a new game. I'd give it a rental at least.

 

Keep in mind that Tony himself cannot kill civilians.

"I don't need this shit in my life!"

"I've never fucked anybody over that didn't have it coming to them."

He doesn't believe in killing innocents. But you can hire henchmen and play as them when you have enough respect and cash, and they aren't held back by some moral code.

[dubq 0]

Sounds interesting! Definitely going to give it a rental!

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Someone told me I only had until today to find a place with wireless internet and get the Wii Opera browser for free. I blew that one, I guess. Damn your lack of ethernet ports, Nintendo!

[dubq 0]

Looks like I got mine just in time. Why not just buy the USB wifi connector? I already had one for my DS and it works perfectly with the Wii.