NLCS: St. Louis Cardinals vs. New York Mets

[naiwf 0]

Congrats to the Cardinals for capitalizing on the mistakes the Mets made in Games 2 and 5. With Carpenter missing at least game 1 and possibly 2 of the WS Detroit should pummel them in 4 or 5 so it's not much of a reward. Now if only the Mets can ensure that they won't end up seeing half of their starters tear calf muscles right before the end of the year they should be fine.

[Guest Felonies!]

I have to at least dislike the Cardinals for obvious reasons, but that was a beautiful triple from Miles. Perfectly hit.

[naiwf 0]

Why let a guy who can't walk bat down 2 with 1 out in the 9th? Even if he laces a ball down the line you have to pinch run for him and he'd be on first. Randolph does some stupid shit sometimes just out of loyalty.

 

John Maine will be our Jaret Wright (aka the worst starter available in an elimination game) tomorrow night. Big ups to that HoFer Glavine for handling the pressure so well tonight. No wonder the Braves only won 1 title in 14 tries.

[devo 0]

What a disheartening display of hitting that was. Strikeouts at key times, swinging at bad pitches, stranding runners left and right...even if Glavine had made another miraculous start, it probably wouldn't have been enough to win tonight.

 

Well, whatever. Being the eternal optimist that I am, I feel this just makes for a better story when the Mets take it in seven. Carpenter hasn't had a good showing in the postseason yet, so why would he start now? Also, I think that despite all the controversy regarding his last start, Trachsel will get the ball on Game Seven and surprisingly do halfway decently.

 

This is what being a Mets fan is all about, I guess...

[NYU 0]

It's mind-boggling that in both Game 1 and Game 5, the Mets were only able to get two runs off Jeff Weaver. He's Jeff Weaver!

 

I can't really fault the team because they were snakebitten at the end of the season in a way I haven't seen in quite some time -- what other team loses two of their three best pitchers in the last week of the season? But still, this has been disappointing. Maine and Oliver have potential, but we'll see.

Edited October 18, 2006 by NYU

[NYU 0]

Also, I think that despite all the controversy regarding his last start, Trachsel will get the ball on Game Seven and surprisingly do halfway decently.

 

I would hope not. At least Oliver showed a glimmer of hope when he was given the ball. Trachsel was abysmal in Game 3 and has done nothing to show he deserves to get the ball back this series.

[J. Hungerford Smith 0]

Carpenter hasn't had a good showing in the postseason yet, so why would he start now?

 

Uhh, his 2 starts, wins, against San Diego were both quality. He had a rough first inning in Game 4 allowing 2 runs but shut them out for 6 following. In game 1, he allowed 1 run over 6 and a third.

[Guest Felonies!]

It's mind-boggling that in both Game 1 and Game 5, the Mets were only able to get two runs off Jeff Weaver. He's Jeff Weaver!

He's also a St. Louis Cardinal, which means that he stops being a scrub and pulls amazing talent out of his ass.

[NYU 0]

ESPN is ridiculous. How are they even attempting to paint this as if it's some amazing upset? The Mets lost two of their best starting pitchers. They've had to throw out THREE starting pitchers with absolutely no postseason starting experience. None. So how is it that ESPN is portraying this as great a miracle as Moses parting the Red Sea? If this was the same exact team it was in June, then yeah, this would be a major upset. But considering the Cards have kept their rotation intact, and the Mets are looking to start Game 7 with a guy that hasn't started a game in two years, it's ridiculous to still paint the Mets in this manner. They had to overcome a lot of adversity to get past the Dodgers and even reach this point against the Cards so, if anything, they should be given credit for clawing their way through the postseason instead of being remembered as the overconfident team that underestimated their opponents. The Cards have played well and the series isn't over yet, but ESPN's coverage of it has just been flat-out sickening and biased.

Edited October 18, 2006 by NYU

[Brett Favre 0]

It's an upset no matter how you try to spin it..

[the max 0]

Probably because the Mets were the best team in the league this season and they're losing to a team that most people had them beating in five games.

 

Neither team stands a chance against the Tigers, so it's all really a moot point.

[NYU 0]

Okay, yeah. Cena's Writer, read my post first. It's an upset, but absolutely not as big an upset as ESPN is making it out to be.

 

Cardinals on Verge of Historic Upset

 

Read this and tell me if you don't see that ESPN calling this a "historic upset" is absurd. They brush off the starting pitching disaster as if it hasn't had the slightest impact.

[NYU 0]

Perhaps on the bright side though, I haven't had to spew any more hateful venom towards Billy Wagner in the past few days.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

If a 83-win team beats a 97-win team, its an upset, jack.

[Guest Felonies!]

That it certainly is, but they really don't mention the fact that Pedro Martinez is supposed to be on this team very often. Or maybe they do. I don't know. I generally have the sound off.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

True, but it's not like Pedro would have pitched every game for them. He accounts for 1/5 of the games if he plays.

[Just John 0]

This isn't an issue of an 83 win team beating a 97 win team, because that 97 win team looked much different in the regular season. Ask yourself how many games this NLCS Mets team would've won in the regular season. My guess is low 80's.

 

If the Cardinals could be anywhere near as consistent as they've been in the post season, I'd say they're a low-mid 90's winner.

 

Both teams are in completely different places right now.

[NYU 0]

True, but it's not like Pedro would have pitched every game for them. He accounts for 1/5 of the games if he plays.

 

Pedro + El Duque would account for 1/2 the amount of playoff games.

 

A rotation of Pedro, El Duque, Glavine, and Maine is a lot stronger than a rotation of Glavine, Maine, Trachsel, and Perez.

 

Like John said, this NLCS version of the Mets is a lot different than the regular season Mets, so it's inaccurate of ESPN to paint them as if they are exactly the same.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Yes I know they are two different teams, but you should know they would just look at regular season record and base things on that.

 

As for the Pedro thing, you're right.

[Brett Favre 0]

Pedro was injured nearly the whole year anyway. It's not like he was a 32 start game during the season.

[The Man in Blak 0]

True, but it's not like Pedro would have pitched every game for them. He accounts for 1/5 of the games if he plays.

 

Pedro + El Duque would account for 1/2 the amount of playoff games.

 

A rotation of Pedro, El Duque, Glavine, and Maine is a lot stronger than a rotation of Glavine, Maine, Trachsel, and Perez.

 

Like John said, this NLCS version of the Mets is a lot different than the regular season Mets, so it's inaccurate of ESPN to paint them as if they are exactly the same.

 

I don't think you realize just how bad the Cardinals were this season. According to BPro's third order standings, they were lucky to be above .500, let alone win the division and advance to the NLCS. For all of the pitching woes that the Mets had, the Cardinals had no sure bets in the rotation either (Carpenter tiring down the stretch, Weaver's playoff history, Reyes' tired arm, Suppan's overwhelming mediocrity against a potent Mets lineup) and they had a terrible bullpen and an underwhelming offense to boot. Tie in Rolen's shoulder owies, Edmonds' slow comeback, and the predominance of lefties in the Mets rotation, and it looked like a Mets win was a foregone conclusion. Nevermind that the Mets almost won 100 games and were the class of the NL all season long.

 

The Mets were a runaway favorite; I'm as big a Cardinal fan as you'll find around these parts and even I couldn't bring myself to find a more optimistic prediction than Mets in six, on the premise that we would "steal a couple." I think that overwhelming sense that the Mets would win is a reason why this is being considered such a "historic upset."

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Can't we just admit that both of these teams are wretched, and we are all losers for being stuck with them in an LCS?

[naiwf 0]

Upset? Yes

 

Historic? No

 

I don't see how any team that loses 2 of its 3 top starters a week before the playoffs is expected to win every playoff series it plays regardless of how well they did in the regular season.

 

Just for comparison's sake which of these teams would be expected to win a series. . .

 

NYY minus Wang & RJ

DET minus any 2 of Verlander/Rogers/Bonderman

MIN minus Santana & Liriano or Bonser

OAK minus Zito & Harden or Haren

 

NYM minus Pedro & Duque

LA minus Penny & Maddux

STL minus Carpenter & Weaver or Suppan

SD minus Peavy & whoever picthed their 3rd game

 

Seriously, losing your ace and # 3 guy cripples any team to the point that the word "historic" in regards to an upset isn't valid. No team is going to get by when they have to pitch their # 4 and down starters in 4 games out of 6 or 7.

[Brett Favre 0]

The Met lineup is so much better than anyone in the NL's, that the situation is different. You put the Yankees in the AL, and take away Wang and RJ, and you can still win with Mussina, Lidle, Wright, and maybe Karsens/Rasner. We're not talking about an AL team here in the Cards.

[naiwf 0]

The Yankees were a whopping 10-8 against the NL this year. It doesn't matter though since only the Mets were actually bit by the injury bug and even if they lose tonight or in Game 7 it's not a historic upset. The 2004 ALCS was the last historic upset in MLB. Now if the Cards manage to beat the Tigers, that's another issue.

[Brett Favre 0]

The 2004 ALCS was a historic collapse, comeback, not upset.

 

And the Mets losing to the Cards would be historic in that the Cards don't even have 85 wins, don't have anyone outside of Pujols, whereas the Mets have fucking Beltran, Delgado, Wright, Reyes, or are they nothing now? Weaver, Suppan, and Reyes aren't exactly twenty times better than Trachsel, Maine, and Perez/Oliver.

[naiwf 0]

The Mets have scored enough runs to win 4 games in this series. The pitching cost them Games 2 and 5. They had 3-0, 4-2 and 6-4 leads in Game 2 and lost. They led 2-0 yesterday and lost. No team is going to score 8 or 9 runs a game in the postseason. The series would be over already if they could have held onto those leads. The offense got them by LA, it's not going to get them by StL. You'd think that as a Yankees fan you would understand that not having enough pitching is a bigger issue than having a ++ offense. Unless Beltran, Delgado, Reyes & Wright can pitch 5 shutout innings it doesn't matter what they do at the plate.

[Brett Favre 0]

The..Cards..don't..have..a..bunch..of..fucking..cy..young..winners. You make it sound like they have the best pitching staff ever. They were in the middle of the pact in terms of pitching, slightly worse than the Mets, even with their injuries, since the Met bullpen is very good.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

The Yankees were a whopping 10-8 against the NL this year. It doesn't matter though since only the Mets were actually bit by the injury bug and even if they lose tonight or in Game 7 it's not a historic upset. The 2004 ALCS was the last historic upset in MLB. Now if the Cards manage to beat the Tigers, that's another issue.

 

The 2004 ALCS was not an upset. It was a historic comeback, but the Red Sox had the better team that year, and were extremely hot coming down the stretch.

 

We can argue 97 wins versus 83 wins all day, but the fact is the talent gap between these teams isn't that large. The Mets without Pedro and El Duque have a very subpar pitching staff. They may have the better bullpen on paper, but that advantage quickly disappears when you start taxing your pen because you don't have starters that can get you 6 or 7 quality innings. The Mets are probably the superior team still because of their hitting, but not enough to give them a large advantage.

[naiwf 0]

Why are you talking about St. Louis' pitching? The METS are the team whose pitching rotation was ruined.

 

Game 1 - Glavine was great (Mets win 2-0)

Game 2 - Maine (4 IP), Mota & Wagner shit the bed (Mets lose 6-9)

Game 3 - Trachsel went ONE inning (Mets lose 0-5)

Game 4 - Perez (5.2 IP) didn't have to pitch well since they scored 11 runs early. (Mets win 12-5)

Game 5 - Glavine (4 IP) choked (NYM lost 2-4)

 

The Mets are 1-2 in games where they got starts from guys who would probably not have pitched had Pedro and Duque been healthy. The starters have logged 21.2 IP in FIVE games leaving the 'pen to pitch the other 21.1 innings. Only an idiot would say that the Mets didn't suffer because Maine, Trachsel and Perez had to start 4/6 of the NLCS even though St. Louis doesn't have Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax and Tom Seaver starting. The shitty starting pitching has worn the bullpen out, and they've got nothing left. What team can win a series where the starters have gotten one more out than the bullpen?