Tiki Barber

[Guest NYankees]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Who would have thought that a running back drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round of the 1997 draft would become a HOF caliber running back. He was originally drafted to be the third down back and now is one of the greatest Giants of all time.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2630407

[Failed Bridge 0]

I don't think he's Hall of Fame worthy. He's having his third real good season. Before 2004 he was a fumbling machine and did nothing of real note.

[Brett Favre 0]

He nearly has 10,000 yards, and has had like 5 good seasons. He's HOF worthy, especially since he's getting better each year.

[Failed Bridge 0]

He just passed 9,000 yards this season and again, before 2004 he was a fumbling machine.

 

I see Marshall Faulk as a sure-fire back headed to the hall. Right now Tiki is about 3,000 yards rushing and 2,000 yards recieving shy of him. Faulk also only had one year where he fumbled 8 times. Tiki has had about 4 or 5 seasons of at least 8 fumbles.

 

Giants Hall of Fame? Sure. Pro Football Hall of Fame? I don't think he should get the nod if he retires after this season. If he has 2 or 3 more good seasons though then yes, he'll be a lock.

[Brett Favre 0]

I agree, he needs a few more years.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

I love Tiki. He and Ronde are the best ambassadors my alma mater has. I'd be somewhat surprised if he retired this year since he's really come on as a premier back the last few seasons. On the other hand, I wouldn't be that surprised, because he does have a whole lot of other interests. Giants'll miss him bigtime if he does go.

[Red Baron 0]

I love Tiki. He and Ronde are the best ambassadors my alma mater has. I'd be somewhat surprised if he retired this year since he's really come on as a premier back the last few seasons. On the other hand, I wouldn't be that surprised, because he does have a whole lot of other interests. Giants'll miss him bigtime if he does go.

 

Don't forget Shaun, the long lost brother of the Barber family. :-D

 

 

Like FFMS said, Tiki was a fumbling machine before 2004. Hell I remember when Fox had a segment on how much Tiki improved over the offseason of 2004, especially how he carries the ball.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Even if Tiki retires at the end of the season, he will be in the top ten all-time in yards from scrimmage. He's definitely HOF worthy, even if his career got off to a slow start. His 2005 campaign was one of the best ever.

[razazteca 0]

It's the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Very Good! Was he ever the leader in rushing yards, total yards, TDs for his position?

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Actually, he led the league in total yards each of the past two seasons. In 2005, he amassed the second most yards in a season, ever.

[The Man in Blak 0]

He's also about 50 rushing touchdowns short of Faulk, 70+ TDs short overall. In addition to that, Faulk had four consecutive seasons with 2000 yards from scrimmage, is a seven time Pro Bowler, holds the season record for yards from scrimmage, played critical roles on two Super Bowl teams ('99 and '01 Rams) and held the record for most touchdowns in a season until Priest Holmes broke it in 2003.

 

Barber is great and he's been a wonderful ambassador for the game, but I think the Faulk comparisons are a stretch. Sure, they are comparable backs in style, but Barber still has a long way to go before he comes close to Marshall and Hall of Fame discussions, in my opinion.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Tiki's closer to the HoF than some think. I agree though that he needs more than this season to seal the deal.

[2GOLD 0]

Woody is right though, they will hold the number of years he played against him. They'll use the "his career wasn't long enough" excuse to keep him sitting on the outside.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Woody is right though, they will hold the number of years he played against him. They'll use the "his career wasn't long enough" excuse to keep him sitting on the outside.

 

He's been in the league for ten years, and has been arguably the best in the game for the past 5. That's quite a bit of longevity for a running back.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

How do Tiki Barber and Warrick Dunn compare? I remember Dunn being a similar back when with TB and early with the Falcons.

[Guest NYankees]

How do Tiki Barber and Warrick Dunn compare? I remember Dunn being a similar back when with TB and early with the Falcons.

 

 

Tiki has 500 more rushing yards and 10 more rushing touchdowns. We can also take into account that Tiki hardly played during the 98 and 99 seasons.

[Timmy8271 0]

Well he does work part time for Fox News. That can probably get him some good money.

[naiwf 0]

Tiki wouldn't deserve HOF status yet. Another 2+ years like last his last two would get him in though. Comparing almost any RB to Marshall Faulk is insanity since Marshall is one of the most unique players in NFL history as you can see below.

 

Among the league's all-time top 50

Rushes: 13

Rushing yards: 9

Rushing TDs: 6

Receptions: 17

Yards from scrimmage: 4

Rush/Receive TDs: 4

[Fökai 0]

Tiki is just another great season or two, not including this one, to get in. Another two seasons of "most yards from scrimmage" (his honors in 2004 and 2005) could sway many votes. The fact is, if he retires now, he has two Pro Bowls, no MVP and no Super Bowl ring to his name. That's not enough to get into the Hall.

[Prophet of Mike Zagurski 0]

I think he might be doing this in order to have leverage during contract negotiations with the Giants. Last I heard he was healthy. He said he doesn't care if he wins the Super Bowl. That's got to be a lie. What NFL player wouldn't like to win a SB?

[Guest Retro Rob]

Ever since his brother won the Super Bowl, he's been saying that it kills him to not have a ring. Either he really thinks they are gonna get it this year, or he is just getting the old hype machine going for the next couple of years.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

By the end of the year, the only players with more yards from scrimmage than Tiki Barber will be: Jerry Rice, Emmit Smith, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, Barry Sanders, Marcus Allen, Curtis Martin, Thurman Thomas and Tony Dorsett. That's it, in the history of the NFL. That's elite company.

 

The thing that kills Tiki (and it hurts current guys like Brian Westbrook as well) is that they are not pure, up the middle running backs. Their pass-catching ability is really underappreciated. They don't get the 100 yards and rushing touchdown game, which seems to be the benchmark for RBs. Tiki had one of the best seasons ever last year, and no one talks about it.

[MFer 0]

It seems like the consensus is that Tiki needs a couple more great seasons to make the HOF and I will agree with that. I don't think has to have the ring to be in though. At least he's played in one. I'm sure a lot of HOF'ers never sniffed the Super Bowl. I don't think RB's are judged quite as strict on wins as QB's. It would be awesome to see him and Ronde go in the same time. I'm fairly certain that both will get it if they have a couple more good years. IIRC, Ronde is the only player to have 20+ sacks and 20+ INT's in a career plus he has the ring.

[Precious Roy 0]

The thing with Tiki, as some people have pointed out, is that although his career numbers are very good overall, he really didn't put it all together until the last couple years. From 99-04 he averaged 7.5 fumbles a year. He was inconsistent. The talent was obviously there and he put up numbers, but it wasn't until the last couple years that he's put up HOF worthy seasons.

 

If he retires after this year he doesn't get in. Another 2 or 3 years at his current pace and he's good to go.

[Guest NYankees]

The thing with Tiki, as some people have pointed out, is that although his career numbers are very good overall, he really didn't put it all together until the last couple years. From 99-04 he averaged 7.5 fumbles a year. He was inconsistent. The talent was obviously there and he put up numbers, but it wasn't until the last couple years that he's put up HOF worthy seasons.

 

If he retires after this year he doesn't get in. Another 2 or 3 years at his current pace and he's good to go.

 

 

Tiki did have a pretty good 2000 and 2002 season. Did I read it write on espn sports ticker that he is definately going to retire?

[The Man in Blak 0]

By the end of the year, the only players with more yards from scrimmage than Tiki Barber will be: Jerry Rice, Emmit Smith, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, Barry Sanders, Marcus Allen, Curtis Martin, Thurman Thomas and Tony Dorsett. That's it, in the history of the NFL. That's elite company.

 

The thing that kills Tiki (and it hurts current guys like Brian Westbrook as well) is that they are not pure, up the middle running backs. Their pass-catching ability is really underappreciated. They don't get the 100 yards and rushing touchdown game, which seems to be the benchmark for RBs. Tiki had one of the best seasons ever last year, and no one talks about it.

 

There's no denying that Tiki Barber had a great season last year, nor can you ignore that fact that he's very likely going to be one of the top all-time backs for yards from scrimmage this year.

 

The problem is that Barber doesn't have anything else on his resume other than yards from scrimmage that would indicate that he's an HoF-quality back. The reason that the "100 rushing yards and a TD" is the benchmark for an elite running back performance is because it tends to correlate very strongly with overall team success. Touchdowns obviously impact the team's score for the game, but the ability to run the ball consistently yields many benefits; Dr. Tom's old columns on the TSM front page tracked 100 yard rushing performances with team W-L records to great success, IIRC. Furthermore, all yards are not necessarily equal - rushing yards burn precious clock time and keep the other team's offense off of the field.

 

Sure, Barber's pass catching ability certainly adds value to the offense, but not so much that you can ignore the mediocre rushing statistics and TD scores throughout the majority of his career, two very important categories to consider when you're comparing the merits of running backs. For all of the yards that he gained in a very impressive season last year, Barber reached the end zone eleven times. Seven of those touchdowns came inside the opponent's 20, and only five of those seven came through rushing plays for the "tough yards" in these red zone situations. Though the Giants have improved over the last couple of years, they were almost always considered a team that struggled to score points in the red zone and Tiki Barber's performance has a lot to do with that.

 

Furthermore, in comparison to his peers, Barber's performance tends to pale a bit. He's been consistently good, but not great and not for a long time. To illustrate, here are his rankings among running backs over the last few years in a Football Outsiders stat called DPAR (Defense-adjusted Points Above Replacement):

 

2005: 5th (Alexander - 2nd)

2004: 7th (Alexander - 4th, Holmes - 5th)

2003: 30th (Holmes - 1st by an unbelievably wide margin, Tomlinson - 2nd, Alexander - 5th)

2002: 10th (Holmes - 1st by an unbelievably wide margin, Tomlinson - 6th)

2001: 7th (Holmes - 1st, Alexander - 6th)

2000: 24th

 

DPAR takes the play-by-play data of all of the season's games, sets an expected baseline for how many points would be scored in a particular situation (3rd and long on the 20, 1st and goal, etc.) by a replacement-level running back, and then weighs a player's performance against that standard. If anything, this stat may be prone to underrating touchdown fiends like Tomlinson, as I'd imagine the expected baseline of performance for a goal-line touchdown is probably high. Even considering that, DPAR shows Barber as being a good, but not necessarily extraordinary performer over the last few years, with a couple of down years to boot.

 

He's never won an MVP or an Offensive Player of the Year award. With the exception of his performance against the 49ers in 2002, his track record in the playoffs is nothing spectacular. His past troubles with fumbles have already been discussed at length (it would be interesting to find out how DPAR rates recovered fumbles, as Barber somehow only lost two out of five fumbles in 2004). He's a good running back and his last two seasons have been great, but I think he's going to need to have about two more seasons at the level he demonstrated last year to really be a contender for the HoF. And, though he's getting off to a great start this year, he's on the wrong side of 30 and two years in the NFL is an eternity for feature backs.

[Guest]

He'll get in the Hall in about 10 years.

 

As the game evolves more and backs catch more passes, Tiki will be more appreciated and will be put in.

[naiwf 0]

Considering he's basically said he's standing by the retirement quote I only have two words for him, and they are "fuck" and "Tiki". Why start a shitstorm like this in the first half of the season when they're right in the mix for a division title? He could have quietly told Coughlin and management his plan to give them a heads up, but instead he decides to be a mini T.O. and make the rest of the season about whether he will or will not change his mind. What a dick.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Furthermore, in comparison to his peers, Barber's performance tends to pale a bit. He's been consistently good, but not great and not for a long time. To illustrate, here are his rankings among running backs over the last few years in a Football Outsiders stat called DPAR (Defense-adjusted Points Above Replacement):

 

Don't really feel like arguing your whole post because we obviously disagree, but I did find it interesting that you cited Football Outsiders and DPAR in your argument against Tiki. In this year's addition of the book that they publish each year, Football Prospectus, they argue that Tiki is a sure thing as a HOFer and that he is one of the best backs ever.

[The Man in Blak 0]

Well, in case you didn't catch it, I already kind of inferred that DPAR would be a stat that should actually "favor" Tiki's contributions, since TDs are, in my opinion, underrated in their calculations.

 

Really, it doesn't surprise me if Football Outsiders thought that he was a HoF-caliber back - I haven't read the Pro Football Prospectus - just because standards for entry into the Pro Football Hall of Fame vary wildly among columnists and other various experts. I'm personally a "small hall" guy, so Tiki sits right in that cliche "Hall of Very Good" area for me.