Religious Tolerance & Religious Moderation Are a Joke

[Guest George's Box]

Off-topic because I feel like it: I've always thought the idea of the trinity was nonsense ever since I had it explained it to me by my Catholic relatives about eight years ago. If a=Father, b=Son, and c=God, then a = c, b = c, but a ≠ b? And then there's the Holy Spirit, which nobody can really explain adequately without drooling on their shirts. AND THEN there's the inordinate level of importance placed upon the Devil, which really steers things into Zoroastrian-esque dualism.

 

Oh, and while I'm ranting: when you cross yourself, you look dumb. Stop that.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

Off-topic because I feel like it: I've always thought the idea of the trinity was nonsense ever since I had it explained it to me by my Catholic relatives about eight years ago. If a=Father, b=Son, and c=God, then a = c, b = c, but a ≠ b? And then there's the Holy Spirit, which nobody can really explain adequately without drooling on their shirts. AND THEN there's the inordinate level of importance placed upon the Devil, which really steers things into Zoroastrian-esque dualism.

 

You've got it wrong, It's not Father, Son and God. It's Father, Son and Holy Spirit. There are several places in the Old Testament which lead some to believe that the Trinity has always been. For example, God says "Let US make man in OUR image" in Genesis. The idea is furthered when Jesus calls God His father, and when Jesus is baptized, and a dove (representing the Holy Spirit) lands on His head and God calls Jesus His beloved son.

 

The Holy Spirit is seen, at least in evangelical churches , as a figure somewhat like a conscience. It "guides" you and helps you to follow the Will of God

 

The Bible itself doesn't put as much emphasis on the devil as the people who read it do. That's mostly, in my opinion, because people need someone to place the blame on, ridicule, and because people want an example of evil.

[Guest George's Box]

Off-topic because I feel like it: I've always thought the idea of the trinity was nonsense ever since I had it explained it to me by my Catholic relatives about eight years ago. If a=Father, b=Son, and c=God, then a = c, b = c, but a ≠ b? And then there's the Holy Spirit, which nobody can really explain adequately without drooling on their shirts. AND THEN there's the inordinate level of importance placed upon the Devil, which really steers things into Zoroastrian-esque dualism.

You've got it wrong, It's not Father, Son and God. It's Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

No, read more closely. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Father is not the Son. That doesn't make any sense. I left the Holy Ghost (which I hope looks like Big Boo from Super Mario World) out at first.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Oh, and while I'm ranting: when you cross yourself, you look dumb. Stop that.

 

This randomly brought back a memory of a grade 9 "Design Technology" (sitting in big chairs and drawing with a t-square) teacher getting uppity at someone after they did the pre-lunch announcements and prayer. He did the sign of the cross really fast or "disrespectfully" and the teacher made him repeat it until he was satisfied the sign was done correctly.

[Brett Favre 0]

The father is God, Jesus is the son, and the holy spirit is the holy spirit.

 

^ That's funny.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

the Holy Ghost (which I hope looks like Big Boo from Super Mario World)

Only good thing in here.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

Off-topic because I feel like it: I've always thought the idea of the trinity was nonsense ever since I had it explained it to me by my Catholic relatives about eight years ago. If a=Father, b=Son, and c=God, then a = c, b = c, but a ≠b? And then there's the Holy Spirit, which nobody can really explain adequately without drooling on their shirts. AND THEN there's the inordinate level of importance placed upon the Devil, which really steers things into Zoroastrian-esque dualism.

You've got it wrong, It's not Father, Son and God. It's Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

No, read more closely. The Father is God, the Son is God, the Father is not the Son. That doesn't make any sense.

If you'll read my post again, I seperated them. I never said the Father is the Son. The Father is God, The Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. They are all God, but they are not each other.

[EL BRUJ0 0]

Only good thing in here.

 

Flying Spaghetti Monster could be a contender (or the next gimmick account)...

[Dobbs 3K 0]

OK, the Big Boo reference made me laugh.

 

I guess I can buy that a lot of churches place a lot of emphasis on Satan/Lucifer/the Devil...probably too much, to a point, in a misguided attempt to scare people. That said, I believe there's a devil. Just look at how much bad is in the world. You don't really think there's something behind it?

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

Some people would use that opening to say "The jews?" (jokingly of course), but I'm not some people.

[Jingus 0]

The Holy Spirit is basically the Chistian equivalent to the Force. That's the best analogy I can come up with.

 

And yes, some churches spend way, way, way too much time and effort focusing on the relatively minor players in the theology. Satan? Just an angel gone wrong, not God's Evil Twin. The Virgin Mary? A misnomer, since at least one verse pretty clearly says that Mary and Joseph did indeed get on with the fuckin' after Jesus ripped his bloody painful way through her virgin cooter.

[Guest panthermatt7]

The Holy Spirit is basically the Chistian equivalent to the Force. That's the best analogy I can come up with.

 

And yes, some churches spend way, way, way too much time and effort focusing on the relatively minor players in the theology. Satan? Just an angel gone wrong, not God's Evil Twin. The Virgin Mary? A misnomer, since at least one verse pretty clearly says that Mary and Joseph did indeed get on with the fuckin' after Jesus ripped his bloody painful way through her virgin cooter.

 

Love it!

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jesus have brothers and sisters?

[Guest George's Box]

I never said the Father is the Son. The Father is God, The Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. They are all God, but they are not each other.

Yes. That is what I said. And that makes sense to you? Why can't it just be as simple as "God is the guy running the show"? Maybe Judaism got it right the first time, and we've been doing too much tinkering.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

I never said the Father is the Son. The Father is God, The Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. They are all God, but they are not each other.

Yes. That is what I said. And that makes sense to you? Why can't it just be as simple as "God is the guy running the show"? Maybe Judaism got it right the first time, and we've been doing too much tinkering.

 

As I said before, God mentions Himself in the plural in the Old Testament. Several times. The idea of the Triune God is something that most protestant denominations believe in. Each part of God represents different parts of the personality of God. That's the logic involved in it.

 

Here's some of the deeper theology behind it: It allows God to create the universe out of a desire to love and be loved. In Islam, Allah creates man because he is lonely. In Chrisitanity, that's not possible because God is triune. God just wanted to be loved by choice. The angels worship God because that's exactly what they were created to do. To do otherwise would make you fallen, as Lucifer was. Man was given the ability to choose whether or not to worship God because God wanted to be loved by choice, not by requirement.

 

EDIT: Yes, Jesus did have brothers and sisters. At least how I was raised, the big deal about Mary being a virgin was BEFORE she gave birth. Afterwards, it didn't make a difference

[Guest panthermatt7]

I never said the Father is the Son. The Father is God, The Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. They are all God, but they are not each other.

Yes. That is what I said. And that makes sense to you? Why can't it just be as simple as "God is the guy running the show"? Maybe Judaism got it right the first time, and we've been doing too much tinkering.

 

As I said before, God mentions Himself in the plural in the Old Testament. Several times. The idea of the Triune God is something that most protestant denominations believe in. Each part of God represents different parts of the personality of God. That's the logic involved in it.

 

Here's some of the deeper theology behind it: It allows God to create the universe out of a desire to love and be loved. In Islam, Allah creates man because he is lonely. In Chrisitanity, that's not possible because God is triune. God just wanted to be loved by choice. The angels worship God because that's exactly what they were created to do. To do otherwise would make you fallen, as Lucifer was. Man was given the ability to choose whether or not to worship God because God wanted to be loved by choice, not by requirement.

 

EDIT: Yes, Jesus did have brothers and sisters. At least how I was raised, the big deal about Mary being a virgin was BEFORE she gave birth. Afterwards, it didn't make a difference

 

The only denomination in which it would make a difference is Catholicism, in which dogma seems to treat her as a virgin upon death (IIRC). Also, I was conversing with a Greek Orthodox worshipper a few days ago, who contended that the brothers and sisters of Jesus could have been step-brothers and step-sisters, since Mary may have remarried after Joseph's death. I think that's a pretty cheap theory; it's dumb to prevent acknowledging that Mary lost the V-card after Jesus' birth.

 

As far as the triune God, I believe that as well; also, the reasoning behind God's creation of free-willed humanity is spot-on. However, I have heard professors theorize that the "us" plural language could also be a reference to Judaism being a pantheistic religion in its original form. Any thoughts?

[TheBigSwigg 0]

I have heard professors theorize that the "us" plural language could also be a reference to Judaism being a pantheistic religion in its original form. Any thoughts?

 

I'd be careful in my use of pantheistic in that sentence. Judaism was never pantheistic in the sense that the "orthodox" believers worshipped multiple gods. When they say pantheistic, they mean that at one point in time, specifically before the book of Isaiah occured, the Hebrews believed that YHWH was just the god of Israel, the land and not the people. I can't remember where, but I seem to remember a passage in the Bible in which one of the Kings of Israel travels to Babylon and brings a mound of dirt with him so his prayers will be heard. This is also why you see so much "paganism" in the Old Testament, with the Isrealites always being admonished for worshipping other gods as they thought the Canaanite gods also had some authority over their land. Also, it's a possible explanation for the plural use of gods in several scriptures, specifically the Ten Commandments.

 

The first chunk of Isaiah is a transcription of Isaiah's vision in which God declares his omnipotence to them. He announces that he is a "cosmic" God, and supreme ruler of the universe. Why he waits so long to do this is up for debate, but could have something to do with the free will argument I mentioned earlier.

[Guest George's Box]

I think you're confusing pantheism with polytheism. Pan- is all, poly- is many. Judaism has been monotheistic since its inception.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

I think you're confusing pantheism with polytheism. Pan- is all, poly- is many. Judaism has been monotheistic since its inception.

 

That's basically what I said, just with explanation of pantheism versus polytheism

[cbacon 0]

The Holy Spirit is basically the Chistian equivalent to the Force. That's the best analogy I can come up with.

 

And yes, some churches spend way, way, way too much time and effort focusing on the relatively minor players in the theology. Satan? Just an angel gone wrong, not God's Evil Twin. The Virgin Mary? A misnomer, since at least one verse pretty clearly says that Mary and Joseph did indeed get on with the fuckin' after Jesus ripped his bloody painful way through her virgin cooter.

 

Love it!

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jesus have brothers and sisters?

 

 

The gospel of James (brother of Jesus) is ignored in the bible in favour of Peter. Peter portrayed Jesus in a more divine manner, which would have greater appeal to the pagans.

[cbacon 0]

That said, I believe there's a devil. Just look at how much bad is in the world. You don't really think there's something behind it?

 

That's rather simplistic logic. People are not infallible you know.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Do I feel like talking religion with C-Bacon?

 

The answer: No.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

Regardless of C-Bacon, that's got to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard. "Bad things happen because of the devil"? That sort of misplaced accountability is execrable. Bad things happen because people have urges and desires, seek power, neglect their responsibilities, etc. Or, alternately, because of pressure systems, the shifting of tectonic plates, and so on. Science and people, man. I'm embarrassed for folks who think otherwise.

[Gary Floyd 0]

Regardless of C-Bacon, that's got to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard. "Bad things happen because of the devil"? That sort of misplaced accountability is execrable. Bad things happen because people have urges and desires, seek power, neglect their responsibilities, etc. Or, alternately, because of pressure systems, the shifting of tectonic plates, and so on. Science and people, man. I'm embarrassed for folks who think otherwise.

Agreed.

[Guest George's Box]

It's like somebody hacked into lovecraft's account to make fun of his "I agree!" posts. Maybe the devil did it.

 

Story vaguely related to where we are now in this thread:

When I was about nine, I was at a Christmas party on my mom's side--the catlick side--of the family. They were doing some weird-ass "breaking bread" thing that I never really got a grasp on, but that's not the main point here. I was playing Mouse Trap! with some distant younger second cousin of mine when, I shit you not, she out of NOWHERE does a Manu Ginobilian flop on her face, starts crying, runs downstairs, and tells all the adults I pushed her. One of my distant aunts yelled at me and said how dare I hurt an innocent person like that, on Christmas, no less, (though it was really December 23rd because we save the 24th-27th for family we actually like) and I should be ashamed of myself, despite my pleas of innocence. Then I tripped on a dog toy and REALLY fell, to which my aunt said "See? God punishes! God punishes!" and I said "no, God didn't punish me, I just fell!" because even at 9, I was a total klutz, and even at 9, I had concluded that I was pretty much steering the ship here. Anyway, the point is, what a bunch of dumbass bead-clutchers. I'm glad I never had to fraternize with those nutjobs ever again.

[NoCalMike 0]

I still wonder why some Christians are anti-Harry Potter but have no problem with the wizardry in Lord of the Rings.........I know it's not a MAJORITY of christians, but there is a pair of grandparents in my in-law's family(well by in-law I mean, My girlfriend's cousins wife's family) that won't let the kids watch Harry Potter because of "magic and wizards" so since it hits close enough to home I figured I'd bring it up and ask....I often wonder if people are doing that because of their own convictions or if they are just following the words/actions of some guy who told them Harry Potter is evil....!?!

[TheBigSwigg 0]

I still wonder why some Christians are anti-Harry Potter but have no problem with the wizardry in Lord of the Rings.........I know it's not a MAJORITY of christians, but there is a pair of grandparents in my in-law's family(well by in-law I mean, My girlfriend's cousins wife's family) that won't let the kids watch Harry Potter because of "magic and wizards" so since it hits close enough to home I figured I'd bring it up and ask....I often wonder if people are doing that because of their own convictions or if they are just following the words/actions of some guy who told them Harry Potter is evil....!?!

 

The basic reasoning is that The Lord of the Rings is an allegory written by a Christian. The same with the Chronicles of Narnia. As a matter of fact, J.R.R. Tolkien is one of the main reasons that C.S. Lewis became a Christian after being an atheist. Many, but not all, Christians will accept the Lord of the Rings because of that. There are still Christians, like my Mother-in-Law, who think it's just as bad as Harry Potter.

 

The basic idea is that since the Lord of the Rings was written by a Christian with the intent of allegory, it's ok, while Harry Potter was written by someone who only sought to make money. (ok, if you add the fundamentalist view, it's someone who sought to make money and turn our kids into witches. But that's a bit loony.)

[Brett Favre 0]

It's like somebody hacked into lovecraft's account to make fun of his "I agree!" posts. Maybe the devil did it.

 

Story vaguely related to where we are now in this thread:

When I was about nine, I was at a Christmas party on my mom's side--the catlick side--of the family. They were doing some weird-ass "breaking bread" thing that I never really got a grasp on, but that's not the main point here. I was playing Mouse Trap! with some distant younger second cousin of mine when, I shit you not, she out of NOWHERE does a Manu Ginobilian flop on her face, starts crying, runs downstairs, and tells all the adults I pushed her. One of my distant aunts yelled at me and said how dare I hurt an innocent person like that, on Christmas, no less, (though it was really December 23rd because we save the 24th-27th for family we actually like) and I should be ashamed of myself, despite my pleas of innocence. Then I tripped on a dog toy and REALLY fell, to which my aunt said "See? God punishes! God punishes!" and I said "no, God didn't punish me, I just fell!" because even at 9, I was a total klutz, and even at 9, I had concluded that I was pretty much steering the ship here. Anyway, the point is, what a bunch of dumbass bead-clutchers. I'm glad I never had to fraternize with those nutjobs ever again.

 

Ah. I'm sorry you had to experience that. That sucks ass.

[Twisted Intestine 0]

If God knows the future, why'd he create lucifer knowing he'd turn on him?

 

If God's all powerful, why doesn't he just destroy lucifer? (Could it be that evil actually isn't a bad thing, and the world needs a balance of good and evil?)

 

Why must we worship(believe in) Jesus in order to enter heaven? Is God so full of himself that he needs people stroking his ego? (Shouldn't it be you just have to treat fellow creatures with love in order to enter heaven?)

 

Why would God care who we're boning?(As long as someone's happy, why would he really care if he goes home to his man and takes it in the ass?)

 

Answer these, and then I'll ask more.

[Mike wanna be 0]

As stated previously, without evil there can be no good, as each is, at its core, defined by being the opposite of the other.

 

Free will's just there to fuck us out of a free trip to heaven. That's all there is to it.

[Jingus 0]

If God knows the future, why'd he create lucifer knowing he'd turn on him?

Because he wanted Lucifer to turn on him.

 

If God's all powerful, why doesn't he just destroy lucifer? (Could it be that evil actually isn't a bad thing, and the world needs a balance of good and evil?)

Answered your own question, except for the "evil isn't evil" bit.

 

Why must we worship(believe in) Jesus in order to enter heaven? Is God so full of himself that he needs people stroking his ego? (Shouldn't it be you just have to treat fellow creatures with love in order to enter heaven?)

Yes, He is that egotistical. He created the angels to endlessly sing his praises, and then created mankind so he could have free willed sentient beings to chose to sing his praises.

 

Why would God care who we're boning?(As long as someone's happy, why would he really care if he goes home to his man and takes it in the ass?)

Much like the annoying boss at work who forces you to dress in casual clothes on fridays, God gets to make all the rules, so he makes them according to how He wants the world to work, not according to our desires.

 

 

And it's rules and beliefs like this (and those Christians who can't really answer these questions without either going into a long overcomplicated explanation of abstract theological theory, or just get mad and say you're going to hell for asking) that angered and frustrated me to the point that I quit the church and never went back.