TNA Talent May Leave

[cabbageboy 0]

That's a bunch of crap about Sting. The very first show he ever main evented was the first Clash of the Champions vs. Flair. That show did a 5.1 rating and I think the main event did an 8.2 or something wild near the end.

 

Here are some PPV buyrates from Sting's WCW work where I can say he was the main event on the show (not just sorta high on the card):

 

Halloween Havoc 89: 1.77

HH 90: 1.33

HH 92: .90 (which was great for a miserable time period for WCW in terms of money.)

Great American Bash 1990: 1.70

Starrcade 1989: 1.30

Starrcade 1990: 1.30

Starrcade 1991: 1.00

SuperBrawl 1992: .96

SuperBrawl 1998: 1.10

 

To me, Sting is a much bigger star than Kurt Angle. I think because of a couple of reasons people discount Sting though, namely that he never worked for the WWF and did a lot of jobs to people since he's generally been a nice guy backstage.

[The Buzz 0]

Sting was the face of a company virtually it's entire inception except for a period of time between 94-96 and it's last two years. Sting's merchandise sales in 1997 were second to Steve Austin only who made probably 7-8 million off of merchandise alone if I remember correctly. Kurt Angle is a bigger name only to people who don't watch wrestling and that follow amatuer wrestling, and any wrestling fan who started watching after 2001. I love Angle, but he's never really been on top of the WWE, he was always one step below the top guy or guys. Hell, when I talk to people who don't watch wrestling anymore, the casual fan is more excited that Sting is wrestling in TNA then when I bring up that Kurt Angle is there as well.

[Guest]

Sting is bigger to most people that didn't start watching during the Attitude Era.

 

Look at what Sting worked with pre-94 and measure that ALONE against Kurt Angle. Not only that, Sting was able to re-invent himself and he was just as big as he was before. His impact on wrestling is far greater than that of Angle as well.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

"Kurt Angle was never the central figure in any period of WWF/E"

 

Are you kidding? Angle was a heel. He's the #2 top heel OF THE ENTIRE DECADE in WWE behind Triple H. Of course he wasn't the "central figure", that's what babyfaces are for.

 

Look at the two biggest PPVs of the year - Royal Rumble and WrestleMania. I define a "Main Event" as a World Championship bout, BTW. As WWE does.

 

MAIN EVENT - Rumble 2001

RUNNER UP - Rumble 2002

MAIN EVENT - Rumble 2003

MAIN EVENT - WrestleMania 2003

FINAL THREE - Rumble 2004

MAIN EVENT - WrestleMania 2004

Super Hyped Up Match - WrestleMania 2005

MAIN EVENT - Rumble 2006

MAIN EVENT - WrestleMania 2006

 

Looking at the used-to-be-important SUMMERSLAM PPV, as well:

 

MAIN EVENT - SummerSlam 2000

MAIN EVENT - SummerSlam 2001

MAIN EVENT - SummerSlam 2003

 

Quite the resume.

 

If Triple H didn't revolve around the title in 2000 and 2002-03 for so long, Kurt Angle is the biggest WWE heel of the past 2 decades.

 

Angle is eons better than Sting. In-ring work, microphone skills, entertainment value, delivering in big-time matches, and bringing out good matches in babyfaces.

 

Sting was an exciting worker, but the heels he was with usually brought the best out in him, not vice versa. Without The Great Muta, Ric Flair, Big Van Vader, Rick Rude, etc. to play off, we got the real Sting, a somewhat exciting guy that did the same 5 moves and was never the same. Sting was also much better pre-knee surgery, look at his stuff with Flair and Muta in the 80's for proof of this. I like Sting, but comparing him to Angle's body of work is ludicrous.

[Guest RyechnaiaSobaka]

Lets put it this way, I never watched WCW, but I knew who Sting was.

 

I'm the same way. Not that I think too many of the newer fans, people who started watching more during the Attitude Era and that sort of thing, are very aware of who Sting is.

 

That being said, I never watched Angle in the WWF either, and when I've tried to watch TNA lately I frankly don't find Angle very entertaining.

 

I find the Black Machismo thing great, and I like Samoa Joe and Christian Cage. Frankly this is quite new for me, as I haven't enjoyed anything I've watched in terms of current wrestling since 1995.

 

I prefer it when they keep the ridiculousness to a minimum. As long as Pacman Jones is on the TNA roster, I can't take it that seriously. Though it's fitting that he's teamed with Ron Killings, who strikes me as totally worthless.

[The Buzz 0]

Well I'd say Angle's not that much better than Sting in a few of those categories to be honest. I've never felt myself emotionally invested in a promo from either one. Sting atleast brought intensity to his promos, something that Angle brings on occasion to a promo. Angle is much funnier then Sting, but he's mainly a heel. Being funny as a heel for the most part is considered a bad thing. You can't truly hate someone that makes you laugh. As a worker, I don't deny that Angle is above Sting. The only era of Sting I might be able to compare Sting to Angle would be the late 80s. However, I think Sting's experience with great workers tends to make him a good worker by default. In my opinion Angle's short career just doesn't match up with the series of matches Sting had with guys like Vader, Muta, Flair. None of Angle's storylines match up with the excitement of Sting vs nWo/Hogan. One of the things you can say for Angle is his best matches top Sting's best matches in workrate. Angle will end up being a bigger star then Sting if

he continues his career, and doesn't do anything stupid to end it early. I just don't think he's a bigger star yet in the overall picture. I mean I do see the Angle side of the argument, but I think both guys are more on an even playing field at the moment with Sting having a slight edge just due to the fact that he's been in a top spot in a major company for twenty plus years. I think it's a compliment to Angle that he's already reached legendary status barely 10 years into his career.

 

Hell, but I can argue with you for an eternity over something like this so I'm done with my side of the argument. I think this is one of those debates that can go either way just depending on when you started watching wrestling. I just think saying Angle is "EONS" better then Sting in every category is ludicrous as well. Angle may be "EONS" better then a guy like Bill Goldberg or Sid Vicious, but he's only a mile or so better then Sting if even that much.

 

Edit: I've found some lists on top draws, etc. from the Wrestling Observer I think they are as recent as 2003, but if I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

 

Wrestling Observer's top 100 wrestlers based on box office, charisma, wrestling ability

 

1. Ric Flair

2. Lou Thesz

3. Rikidozan

4. Antonio Inoki

5. Hulk Hogan

6. Andre the Giant

7. El Santo

8. Giant Baba

9. Steve Austin

10. Buddy Rogers

11. Frank Gotch

12. Jim Londos

13. Ed Lewis

14. Stan Hansen

15. Bruno Sammartino

16. The Rock

17. Goregous George

18. Bruiser Brody

19. Riki Choshu

20. Mitsuharu Misawa

21. Verne Gagne

22. Jumbo Tsuruta

23. Terry Funk

24. Mil Mascaras

25. Bret Hart

26. Dory Funk Jr.

27. Tiger Mask

28. Blue Demon

29. Perro Aguayo

30. Nick Bockwinkel

31. Dusty Rhodes

32. Johnny Valentine

33. Freddie Blassie

34. Vader

35. George Hackenschmidt

36. Jushin Liger

37. Toshiaki Kawada

38. Keiji Muto

39. Jack Brisco

40. Harley Race

41. El Hijo del Santo

42. Tatsumi Fujinami

43. Danny Hodge

44. Akira Maeda

45. Chigusa Nagayo

46. Ricky Steamboat

47. Shawn Michaels

48. Shinya Hashimoto

49. Ray Stevens

50. Randy Savage

51. Gene Kiniski

52. Nobuhiko Takada

53. Mick Foley

54. Genichiro Tenryu

55. The Crusher

56. Dick the Bruiser

57. Canek

58. Antonio Rocca

59. The Sheik

60. Den Leo Jonathon

61. Dynamite Kid

62. The Undertaker

63. El Solitario

64. Billy Graham

65. Jerry Lawler

66. Roddy Piper

67. Ultimo Dragon

68. Billy Robinson

69. Jaguar Yokota

70. Lioness Asuka

71. Bobo Brazil

72. Karl Gotch

73. Bert Assirati

74. Salvador Gori Guerrero

75. Bill Longson

76. Killer Kowalski

77. Mildred Burke

78. Abdullah the Butcher

79. The Destroyer

80. Atsushi Onita

81. Ted Dibiase

82. Earl McCready

83. Pat O'Connor

84. Fritz Von Erich

85. Wahoo McDaniel

86. Billy Watson

87. Leroy McGuirk

88. Mad Dog Vachon

89. Yvon Robert

90. Bronko Nagurski

91. Dos Caras

92. Edouard Carpentier

93. Rayo de Jalisco

94. Stanislaus Zbysko

95. Sting

96. Pat Patterson

97. Masahiro Chono

98. Dara Singh

99. Jess Ventura

100. Eddie Graham

 

A list of Wrestlers who have main evented pay-per-views with buyrates of 1.0 or higher from the Observer as well. This is the 2003 update and I'm sure Angle may have earned another number or two since then.

 

Hogan 23

Austin 20

Rock 18

Flair 17

HHH 10

Bret Hart 9

Taker 7

Sting 7

Luger 6

Angle 6

Foley 5

Savage 5

Vince 5

Jericho 4

 

 

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Angle is eons better than Sting. In-ring work, microphone skills, entertainment value, delivering in big-time matches, and bringing out good matches in babyfaces.

 

Sting was an exciting worker, but the heels he was with usually brought the best out in him, not vice versa. Without The Great Muta, Ric Flair, Big Van Vader, Rick Rude, etc. to play off, we got the real Sting, a somewhat exciting guy that did the same 5 moves and was never the same. Sting was also much better pre-knee surgery, look at his stuff with Flair and Muta in the 80's for proof of this. I like Sting, but comparing him to Angle's body of work is ludicrous.

 

I never said Sting was the better worker. I said that Sting was the bigger star based on the fact he's been one for a lot longer than Angle and when Angle was at the top, he was never really pushed as the guy that the company was riding on his back, even as a babyface. The closest they came to that was when Angle was feuding with Austin during Invasion which his face pops seem to have deteriorated in favor of RVD, and in the summer when he returned from the Mania match with Brock, and once again his face pops sort of diminished.

[Jingus 0]

I think Sting's starpower has been hurt a lot by the massive amounts of time off he's taken over the past decade. In WCW from 1998 until it closed, Sting did the same thing as Hogan and the other top guys with randomly disappearing for weeks if not months at a time. Then he was the only top WCW guy who never once worked for Vince. He basically sat at home for years, worked a couple times for TNA during their weekly PPV days and then vanished again. He's spent more time away from the business than in it for several years now. Obviously he's not a draw, because TNA doesn't draw jack shit (although you could say the same thing about every other worker on the roster). Plus he's almost 50 years old now, there just can't be much gas left in the tank. Supposedly Sting doesn't mind putting the young talent over, but I'll be damned if I can remember any concrete examples of him doing so. And no, him jobbing the title to Abyss on a DQ doesn't count.

[Jacques 0]

HTF is Dara Singh?

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

I think Sting's starpower has been hurt a lot by the massive amounts of time off he's taken over the past decade. In WCW from 1998 until it closed, Sting did the same thing as Hogan and the other top guys with randomly disappearing for weeks if not months at a time. Then he was the only top WCW guy who never once worked for Vince. He basically sat at home for years, worked a couple times for TNA during their weekly PPV days and then vanished again. He's spent more time away from the business than in it for several years now. Obviously he's not a draw, because TNA doesn't draw jack shit (although you could say the same thing about every other worker on the roster). Plus he's almost 50 years old now, there just can't be much gas left in the tank. Supposedly Sting doesn't mind putting the young talent over, but I'll be damned if I can remember any concrete examples of him doing so. And no, him jobbing the title to Abyss on a DQ doesn't count.

 

Well Sting did want to have Abyss win the belt by pinning him but, the bookers wanted the DQ finish.

[billdynamite 0]

If there was an indy show in London which was headlined by Sting, i wouldn't look twice at the card. If Kurt Angle was on there, I'd strongly consider buying a ticket.

 

I can't say why but I've never given a fuck about Sting. I've been watching wrestling since way before the Attitude era, and i'd put Angle WAY up higher on the list in terms of star power.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

I'd put Angle up higher if only because he was one of the top 4 guys in the WWF/WWE at any given time since the summer of 2000 until he left in '06. For what it's worth, I'd also put Goldberg higher than Sting, mostly because more people remember who the fuck Goldberg is that haven't watched wrestling since '99 (for instance, my girlfriend was surprised when we turned Impact on one night and Sting was there, and was especially surprised when I told her that Goldberg hasn't had a wrestling match since WrestleMania XX) than they do Sting (as somebody else pointed out, the name definitely helps).

 

That said, Sting is like Terry Funk: he's perenially over with fans young and old, as the old ones remember better days, and the young ones see the older ones loving him and thus follow suit. That, and the whole thing about trying to get younger people over, reinventing themselves when needed, and working much harder than they really have to.

[strummer 0]

That's a bunch of crap about Sting. The very first show he ever main evented was the first Clash of the Champions vs. Flair. That show did a 5.1 rating and I think the main event did an 8.2 or something wild near the end.

 

Here are some PPV buyrates from Sting's WCW work where I can say he was the main event on the show (not just sorta high on the card):

 

Halloween Havoc 89: 1.77

HH 90: 1.33

HH 92: .90 (which was great for a miserable time period for WCW in terms of money.)

Great American Bash 1990: 1.70

Starrcade 1989: 1.30

Starrcade 1990: 1.30

Starrcade 1991: 1.00

SuperBrawl 1992: .96

SuperBrawl 1998: 1.10

 

To me, Sting is a much bigger star than Kurt Angle. I think because of a couple of reasons people discount Sting though, namely that he never worked for the WWF and did a lot of jobs to people since he's generally been a nice guy backstage.

 

Those numbers are skewed since the PPV market was much smaller back then. A 1.7 buyrate today would be huge but in 1990 it wasn't that big

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I think the thing with Sting is that while he was never overwhelmingly talented in the ring, he was still quite good at times and generally gave his best. He also had a great look, during both versions of his career (the painted "surfer" dude was a good blend of the Road Warriors and Hulk Hogan, while the later "Crow" look fit in with the anti-heroes that were popular in movies and comics in the mid-'90s). While I'm sure there are a few examples from his WCW days in the mid '90s when he was being underutilized, I can't recall a match where Sting just blatantly phoned it in, like a lot of his contemporaries. Heck, he had some pretty entertaining matches with some marginal performers. He always played to the crowd and seemed to appreciate his fans. I think that's why he's always been over, even if he isn't as talented in the ring as Angle, or had the lengthy title reigns of someone like Ric Flair.

[Detective Comics 0]

It's too bad this whole discussion is about Angle and Sting as opposed to a TNA established star.

[luke-o 0]

Would you rather they focus the show around Sonjay Dutt?

 

But it doesn't matter anyway, I now think of wrestlers like Sting and Angle was TNA wrestlers rather than ex-WCW or ex-WWE guys.

[iggymcfly 0]

You can't say that Sting's a bigger star than Kurt Angle now based on buyrates from 1989. That's ridiculous. It's like saying that Ric Flair's a bigger draw for the WWE than Triple H is. The fact of the matter is, the last time Sting was really significant nationally outside of TNA was about 10 years ago, Angle was headlining PPVs in the WWE a couple years ago, and left to TNA while still in his prime.

 

Therefore, while Sting gets the "legend pop" somewhat, you can't really take him seriously as a guy to build the company around. I have nothing against what they're doing now, letting Sting have a title reign, but in the long run, Angle needs to be a fixture in the title picture for at least the next couple years. They've got a long way to go to bring someone like Samoa Joe up to his level.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

The only problem with building around Sting and Angle is that neither of them are necessarily long term solutions for TNA. Neither of them really seem to be helping buyrates or ratings (though that is more TNA's fault for lack of promotion than anything, coupled with this being a "down time" for wrestling in general).

 

What happens when Sting retires for good in another year or so, and what happens if Angle gets injured (or worse)? Who is the big name to carry the company then? No one, really, because they haven't built anyone up enough yet. They've had chances in the past to hand the figurative ball to AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Christian Cage, and others, but have just failed to do it time after time. Sooner or later, it's going to be too late for TNA, or WWE is going to swoop in and sign some of those guys and leave TNA with the old guys who can't go in the ring anymore.