NHL Thread - November 2007

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

I don't know if I come off as cynical pointing my finger at Bobby Clarke again, but four times is indeed too many. Come on.

[AntiLeaf33 0]

They have got to do something with the Flyers. I'm expecting the leagure to be down one team (due to injuries from the Flyers) by the All-Star break

[the pinjockey 0]

This is ridiculous. When did it get officially into the books that players don't have to protect themselves anymore? Hartnell did his job to hit the player. It isn't his fault that the player decided to put his head in a vulnerable position. From this point forward, everyone should just kneel along the boards since it will be a 5 minute penalty if they get hit.

 

At least Jones gets some blame on his hit, Hartnell should be getting ZERO blame for this hit.

 

[the max 0]

This is ridiculous. When did it get officially into the books that players don't have to protect themselves anymore? Hartnell did his job to hit the player. It isn't his fault that the player decided to put his head in a vulnerable position. From this point forward, everyone should just kneel along the boards since it will be a 5 minute penalty if they get hit.

 

At least Jones gets some blame on his hit, Hartnell should be getting ZERO blame for this hit.

 

Another case of it not being the Flyers' player's fault.

 

As someone who has probably been skating since he was able to walk, Hartnell could have avoided contact. It's not like Alberts is the first, nor will he be the last, to play a puck like that. While hockey is a dangerous sport, there is NO reason why Hartnell had to follow through there. Hartnell's job is to hit the player, yes. But had he used a bit of common sense, he'd have realized that NOTHING good was going to come from hitting a guy on his knees three feet from the boards. The Flyers are fucking bush league and I'm sure we'll be hearing different when karma turns around on them. Four incidents of dirty play or questionable judgment in less than 25 games. FOUR. There comes a point where someone is going to have enough and take out one of their players. I'm not saying it's right, but it is going to happen.

[the pinjockey 0]

Downie was borderline IMO

Boulerice was a fucktard

Jones was more than half at fault (if you don't think Bergeron was partly to blame for putting himself in that position, I don't know what to tell you). My issue with this hit was the fact it happens at least once a week, yet Jones was the only one that apparently tried to murder someone.

 

So I think the only case you can say I am trying to absolve the Flyers player of blame was Downie.

 

Why should Hartnell bail out the Bruin player and avoid contact? It was not a dirty hit, it should not have even been a penalty. He hit him against the boards and it was Alberts' fault for kneeling against them (who blocks a dump in by kneeling?)

 

Should Scott Stevens have hit Lindros in that ECF Game 7?

- Like Alberts, Lindros put himself in a vulnerable position (skating with his head down across the middle)

- Like Alberts, Lindros was in a position to get hurt (clearly, since he was a vegetable for a month)

- Unlike Hartnell, Stevens even skated through him instead of slowing up

 

 

[Guest Pizza Hut's Game Face]

I don't skate, and even I can recognize that I'd have to be fucking retarded to kneel in front of the boards like that. That's not a major/misconduct. What'd they get him for, boarding/intent to injure? That's a bunch of New NHL crap. You put your head down in the corners, they'll hit you and you know it. Likewise, you put yourself in a vulnerable position like this, you have to know that you're going to get your brain scrambled. Alberts quite literally bent over and asked for it.

 

I, for one, welcome back the Broad Street Bullies. I love that they just knock the shit out of people like this. Hockey needs team identities again beyond everyone just being floppy Europeans, and the Flyers are bringin' it back. Keep on keepin' on, you dirty thugs.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

I think I saw somewhere that Mark Messier was critical of Bergeron for putting himself in position to get hurt. I'll see if I can find a link somewhere...

[Guest Pizza Hut's Game Face]

Yes, I just saw it on Coach's Corner. Cherry said that Messier was always aware of who was behind him in situations like that; he'd "have his head on a swivel."

 

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/hnic/coach...down_in_th.html

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

Hartnell got two games. Just announced.

[the max 0]

Why should Hartnell bail out the Bruin player and avoid contact? It was not a dirty hit, it should not have even been a penalty. He hit him against the boards and it was Alberts' fault for kneeling against them (who blocks a dump in by kneeling?)

 

Lots of players. I've seen it happen on more than one occasion and have never seen someone get hit like that.

 

Why should Hartnell bail out Alberts? So he doesn't injure him, maybe? Maybe had Hartnell caught him just right, he could have broken his neck? Would you be absolving Hartnell then? It was a dirty hit because it was avoidable. It was called a penalty because by the rulebook, it was.

 

http://www.nhl.com/rules/rule44.html

 

Alberts shouldn't have played it like that, but it doesn't give Hartnell the right to stampede into him just because he made that play. If a defenseman dives down to block a shot, should opposing players kick him in the face? Hey, he put himself in the position to make the play, it's his fault, right?

 

Bullshit. What goes around comes around. I hope it comes around on the Flyers soon.

[Guest Pizza Hut's Game Face]

It was Alberts's fault for putting himself in such a vulnerable position. Hartnell didn't "stampede" into him. That's hyperbole. Give me a break. I can't call that a dirty hit and mean it. Maybe the Bruins should work on their fundamentals so that they don't repeatedly find themselves in positions where they get injured.

[the pinjockey 0]

So any hit that is avoidable should be avoided? Again I go back to the Stevens-Lindros example since you seem to want a Flyer on the receiving end (yeah, with Lindros we have no history of this stuff). Lindros was in a vulnerable position, if Stevens hit him just right and Lindros landed face first on the ice and broken his neck it would still be a clean hit.

 

And come on man, really with the kicking example. There is no circumstance under which kicking someone on the ice is legal, as opposed to hitting someone against the boards. It is hockey, there is hitting.

[the max 0]

It was Alberts's fault for putting himself in such a vulnerable position. Hartnell didn't "stampede" into him. That's hyperbole. Give me a break. I can't call that a dirty hit and mean it. Maybe the Bruins should work on their fundamentals so that they don't repeatedly find themselves in positions where they get injured.

 

Fuck that noise. The only reason Hartnell slowed down was to avoid the charging penalty that he likely would have gotten.

 

Ah, so now it's all the Bruins fault. Need to work on hockey fundamentals because some fucking half-assed organization can't teach their players that they shouldn't hit people in the head. Like I said before, if this was a singular incident, fine. I'd be pissed that it's another injury to a defense that really can't afford to lose NHL talent right now, but hey, it's a singular incident. This is the fourth time in 25 games that the Flyers have made a dirty or questionable hit. But clearly, the Senators, Canucks and Bruins are all in the wrong and must go back to work on fundamentals.

[the max 0]

So any hit that is avoidable should be avoided? Again I go back to the Stevens-Lindros example since you seem to want a Flyer on the receiving end (yeah, with Lindros we have no history of this stuff). Lindros was in a vulnerable position, if Stevens hit him just right and Lindros landed face first on the ice and broken his neck it would still be a clean hit.

 

I don't know what hit you're referencing, so I don't know what to tell you. A hit should be avoided when a guy is fucking kneeling against the boards and you have a chance to avoid the hit altogether. Again, I've been watching hockey for a while now and even played for a while and I honestly believe that Hartnell made the wrong decision to follow through with the hit. He slowed down to avoid a charging penalty, but still saw fit to slam Alberts' head into the dasher. How is the hit even defendable?

 

And come on man, really with the kicking example. There is no circumstance under which kicking someone on the ice is legal, as opposed to hitting someone against the boards. It is hockey, there is hitting.

 

I was using it as an example. There's hitting in hockey, yes. But there's a line between a hit like Eager gave Chara (from the side, near the boards, could have been charging) and the hit that Hartnell gave Alberts. Blaming the victim of the hit is something I can't believe and it seems that it's what Flyers fans have been doing all season. My question is, when does it become the Flyers player's fault? Paralysis? That seems to be the road we're heading down. Especially with two two-game suspensions from a league that should be trying to crack down on hits to the head, neck and spine.

[the pinjockey 0]

Fault has nothing to do with injury. Boulerice was at fault when he crosschecked Kesler in the neck even though he got up a minute later and was back a shift or two later. I've made my opinion on the Downie hit known, but if you think that was a dirty hit then he was at fault regardless of McAmmond getting a concussion.

 

The players are at fault (in this case) or partially at fault (in Bergeron's case) for putting themselves in positions where they did not protect themselves. If you go skating in behind the net, turn your back to the player and stop 4 feet from the boards you are putting yourself in a position to get hurt. If you kneel against the boards with the puck, you are putting yourself in a position to get hurt.

 

For the sake of indicting Flyers fans though I will admit two facts:

- we have adopted the Flyers gorilla that was run in the Ottawa Sun after the Downie hit

- we are praying that they replace Hartnell with the recently off suspension Steve Downie

[CanadianChris 0]

You know why those players are in a position to be hurt? Because marginal players with no respect for anyone else on the ice will always be there to take liberties. Everyone is so quick to come up with excuses defending head shots -- and I've been guilty of this on occasion -- when the reality is there's no place for head shots in hockey. Absolutely none.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

I'm with Max, both in principle, and in the case he laid out.

 

Watch the replay, Hartnell came from nearly centre ice to the boards in the time Alberts was kneeling. This wasn't "well, Hartnell <i>might</i> have been able to avoid him", he had more than enough time to avoid the hit altogether.

 

I don't think any unavoidable hit should be avoided, and doubt anyone would. Nick Kypreos also offered, in a roundtable over Downie's hit on McAmmond, that oftentimes, the pace is so fast, you don't have time to analyse what's going to happen, you're essentially playing on instinct; I empathise with that. Having said that, there was more than enough of a window for Hartnell to avoid the hit, especially with the propensity for an injury given Albert's position at impact.

 

 

Incidentally, Kypreos wasn't defending Downie, just painting a picture. I didn't want anyone to get the impression that Kypreos is an idiot or anything

[the pinjockey 0]

There is a reason Messier said that he never would have allowed himself to be in that position. It is up to the players to know where they are. The players anymore put themselves in positions and count on the referees and the opponents to protect them.

 

Why should Hartnell avoid the hit though is my question? He is trying to make a play for his team and hitting a man (who isn't facing the boards) against the boards is completely legal. Should players just kind of kneel along the boards as they bring the puck on ice so noone will hit them? If someone is coming across the middle with their head down, should they not get hit because if they do they'll be knocked on queer street. Scott Stevens is going to the HOF based on not just not avoiding the big hits, but premeditating them.

[LaParkaMarka 0]

You've brought up Scott Stevens a few times now. Am I the only one that thinks Scott Stevens is a thug? It's not entertaining to see a player lying motionless on the ice. Shoulders to the face might be clean in the rulebook, but it's just like helmet-to-helmet in the NFL...unnecessary and overly dangerous.

[Guest]

I have no problem with big, shoulder-to-head hits. Like almost all of these.

 

 

Since you mentioned Stevens, I thought I'd bring up a player who delivers a lot of similar, hard open-ice hits. Please excuse the shitty music. Brown's at the top of the league every year in hits, and not a single one has been worthy of a suspension. Hate to bring another King into the discussion, but THESE are hockey plays. Not driving someone's head into the boards when they're on their knees. There's nothing "hockey" about that.

[the pinjockey 0]

I just use Stevens as my example, since obviously as a Flyers fan he was a staple and a bane of my existance. And he was a perfect non-offensive defenseman in my opinion.

[treble 0]

Forget the GM, fire the zamboni driver.

[Zetterberg is God 0]

Agreed. What the fuck was that?

[treble 0]

The best part was reading Maurice's lips.

 

But anyway, I figure JFJ's gone sometime tomorrow afternoon.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

Bertuzzi's return to Vancouver = 4-0 loss for the visitors.

 

Vancouver (!) leads the Northwest now. FIVE points separate first-place Vancouver and last-place Edmonton in that division. Equally fascinating: Detroit (#1 seed in the West) lead the league in points, and second place Dallas complete an Ottawa sandwich. From there, Vancouver (#3) through to Anaheim (#8) all have 26 points. The aforementioned Northwest gap also represents places #3 through #14 in the conference.

 

I don't mean to spew stats that can literally change in an hour, especially this early in the calender, but that's pretty freakin interesting.

 

 

 

 

Please notice my restraint in teasing the Leafs. I watched the game tonight (as always) with my grandfather, a Leafs fan of some 60 years, who blamed the following for the Leafs' struggles (in this order:)

 

Richard Peddie, JFJ, Stephen Harper, Darcy Tucker, Mats Sundin, Paul Maurice, Brian McCabe (I no longer represent St. Kitts), Nik Antropov. I've tried to put myself in the shoes of a Leafs fan, but can't do it. I don't think the sky is falling in Hogtown, but I do feel that everyone in that list will be out of a job by Canada Day....save the third guy, but that's for another folder.

[LaParkaMarka 0]

I watched the end of the Leafs game. It was kind of sad how the crowd died once they realized Jason Blake was taking the last shot. There was no way that guy was scoring, and everyone knew it.

 

[AntiLeaf33 0]

I watched the end of the Leafs game. It was kind of sad how the crowd died once they realized Jason Blake was taking the last shot. There was no way that guy was scoring, and everyone knew it.

 

Which, as a Habs fan, was the reason why I was pumping my fists in celebration once I saw Blake was shooting.

 

Still....what the fuck was up with that zamboni driver? It's not like he missing a little strip on the Montreal side first off.....that was a pretty big chunk.

[treble 0]

I can't be too mad at Blake, he pretty much set up Sundin's goal on his own and got them an extra point.

 

And I guess I was wrong about Ferguson.

 

And Matthew Barnaby is awful here on TSN.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

And I guess I was wrong about Ferguson.

 

To what end?

 

[treble 0]

But anyway, I figure JFJ's gone sometime tomorrow afternoon.