TNA Knockouts

[majormayhem1 0]

Wrestlers should watch Gail Kim vs. Awesome Kong and take notes. This is by far the best Women's wrestling I've ever seen.

[Dandy 0]

I'll let them know.

[Jingus 0]

This is by far the best Women's wrestling I've ever seen.

So you haven't seen any Japanese women's wrestling at all, Trish's feuds with women like Molly or Mickie, Madusa's good stuff from her prime, or anything with the word "SHIMMER" on it? Don't get me wrong, TNA has the best women's division on American national television today, and it's quite possibly the best part of their entire show, but it's far from perfect or the best thing to ever involve chicks in a ring.

 

 

One thing that does kinda bother me is all the weird, over-the-top gimmicks that TNA tends to stick so many of their workers with, including the women. Let's go down the list:

 

Gail Kim: her finisher is called the Happy Ending. Yuck.

Roxxi Laveuagh: talented indy worker Nikki Roxxi, stuck in a dumbass Mama Shango voodoo gimmick

Traci Brooks: do we know anything about her character other than she's a whore who won't leave her abusive pimp?

Traci's stalker: talented indy worker Rain, stuck in a dumbass Single White Female gimmick.

Miss Jackie: she's a cowgirl, I guess. No other character development.

ODB: on the indies, she was just a wrestler. Now she's a crazy drunken tranny or something.

Christy Hemme: too many pussy jokes, what with the "firecrotch legdrop" and the mention of the "red snapper".

Shelly Martinez: I guess you're not allowed to be a Hispanic in TNA and not join LAX.

Angelina Skye and Velvet Whoever: random not-terribly-talented blonde chicks with porno names who dry-fuck the rope every time they get in the ring, and would fit in just fine in the WWE's Divaland.

 

Awesome Kong doesn't have anything that obviously bad, but the announcers keep calling her finisher the Awesome Bomb (is it wise to try to remind people of the OTHER seriously concussed, domestically abusive wrestler who hanged himself last year), and the fact that a large black person is called "Kong" in the first place (yeah, I know it's from Aja, but it's the sort of thing a PC crusader would easily notice and run with).

 

And now we've got some random woman (rumors say it's talented indy worker Cheerleader Melissa) doing a frigging Muslim gimmick in full burka. This will not end well.

 

 

Even with all those flaws, I do agree that TNA has something special here with unusual potential, especially with the great chemistry in the Kim/Kong matches. It just annoys me because most of what I mentioned is stuff which could easily could be changed, or at least should never have been done in the first place.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

I just hope that ODB/Kong is as good, or close to as good, as Kong/Kim. I'm also hoping to see TNA import some real talent from overseas; Lord knows WWE won't.

[Silence 0]

I'm bothered by how TNA changes most of the newer Knockouts' names like they think they own them (Shelly Martinez to Salenis or whatever, Angel Williams and Talia Madison to Angelina Love and Velvet Skye, etc.).

[Guest LuckyLopez]

Its something they've done with Low Ki in the past so I'm not that surprised. Ultimately they want to own the trademark and merchandising rights like most promotions would and since most of these ladies have no true name value coming in, it does make some sort of sense to just dub them what you want and have control. They have seemed to leave anyone with any sort of name value alone, or with minor changes like Kong. It always annoys me when its someone I know and am used to referring to by that name but ultimately I find I end up getting used to the name pretty quickly.

 

Its a business move. If it doesn't affect your hiring practices it would really be foolish NOT to make those moves. Giving up rights you could have had never really helped that many employers. Not that we have to like the silly names they're sticking on some of these ladies or that wrestlers we may have been fans of are basically losing the identities we knew them by.

 

Even with all those flaws, I do agree that TNA has something special here with unusual potential, especially with the great chemistry in the Kim/Kong matches. It just annoys me because most of what I mentioned is stuff which could easily could be changed, or at least should never have been done in the first place.

Are all the things you named actual problems though? Is Shelly being in LAX a real problem? In truth I'm not even sure I see the reasoning behind that criticism. They presumably wanted a woman for LAX, Shelly is latina, in theory the association helps both as it gives LAX something new to draw attention and gives Shelly an immediate connection to the roster and fans and an excuse to be on TV when she's not in the ring.

 

Are Jackie Moore and Traci not having over the top characters really problems? It seems odd that your complaint seems to be the silly characters like Roxxi Leveaux (which I 100% agree with) while simultaneously criticizing that Traci and Jackie don't have any sort of character that can be quickly summed up in a few words. Traci's gotten quite a bit of story and mic time as the basically suffering employee of Roode who started trying to help him, struggled to meet his ridiculous demands, became victim to his verbal abuse, and eventually a completely unwilling participant to his actions. I don't think I care that much about her so I'm not saying its been great development or anything, but is her basic lack of a gimmick really a problem?

 

I'd argue that Jackie Moore actually does kind of have a gimmick, but its basically ODB's drunk character and tied to James Storm. But still, it seems like you're simultaneously criticizing TNA's need to stick over the top gimmicks on some and lack of gimmicks on others. Maybe I'm just reading that wrong. She's a tough, mean, drunk redneck. She's not terribly developed, nor is she a star of the division, but I honestly don't see the need for her to have much more to her at this stage.

 

I HATE ODB and that character drives me insane, but that's the EXACT same character she was doing in OVW. So I don't think you can fairly blame that on TNA at all. If anything they're to blame for hiring her for it, but if nothing else arena fans seem to love it. Which is another deep criticism I have as I don't see why ODB appears to be a heel when the crowd basically loves her and her act seems designed to gain fan reactions. Why TNA seems to have chosen her to be a heel, I have no idea. But I'm also presuming that the face/heel alignments of some of these unaffiliated women are somewhat fluid here in their early TNA careers until true roles are found for them. And with it looking like ODB vs Kong up next I'd presume ODB will flow back to face. But I have no idea why TNA seemed to make her a heel in the first place.

 

And as a matter of correction, Rain/Peyton Banks has NEVER been booked as a stalker of Traci's and has ALWAYS clearly been booked as Roode's fan/stalker. For that first month or so she was carrying around a sign that said "Roode's #1 Fan", in fact. She also had a number of confrontations with Brooks, clearly over her disagreements with Roode, so labeling it a Single White Female gimmick is just completely off. If anything she's Roode's stalker and now Traci's replacement. But that's never been out of an affection towards Traci.

 

I'm holding out hope that the one time use of the Burkha doesn't make Melissa a Muslim character. But I'm probably being naive. Booking an American as a Muslim hailing from Japan would seem to be screwy booking... but TNA certainly isn't a stranger to that. Still, I'm hoping that it was nothing more than an attempt to disguise her, but with Melissa not being a big name I'm not sure why that would make sense. I'm just hoping its the less stupid and offensive nonsensical booking decision in this case.

 

I mean, I completely agree that Gail Kim and Christy Hemme's finishers being juvenile sexual references are pretty stupid. And like I said, I hate Roxxi's gimmick, hate ODB period, and am praying that Melissa's doesn't go the way you and I are thinking. And for the most part I think TNA's women don't have terribly well developed characters, but given that the division has existed for 3 months and half of them have been on the roster for less than that I cut them a break considering the division HAS been so surprisingly strong thus far. But is Kong's finisher sharing a name with the finisher of a dead wrestler a real issue? Or Shelly being a Latina associated with a Latino group?

[Jingus 0]

But is Kong's finisher sharing a name with the finisher of a dead wrestler a real issue? Or Shelly being a Latina associated with a Latino group?

It's nothing important. I just wonder why it has to be that way in the first place.

 

Why give Kong the exact same finisher name as Mike Awesome? Not that it OFFENDS~! me for wrestling companies to make references to the various workers who've killed themselves, but it just seems like they should be actively trying to avoid all such references if at all possible, especially "in a post-Benoit world". I know it's really just traditional wrestling laziness, "oh she's named Awesome and she uses a powerbomb = Awesome Bomb", but when there's infinite other names they could've possibly gone with, I do wonder why they thought that one was the best idea.

 

As for Shelly, the thing that bugs me is that, right now, every Latino in TNA is currently a member of LAX. (Unless you count Low-Shi, but he's supposedly quit and he clearly wishes he was Japanese anyway.) It's sort of like back when practically every black guy on Raw was in the Nation. Why does every member of a particular race get put with a gimmick which entirely based on that race? Of course, they're not the only ones. "An Indian guy? He'll be a Guru! A black guy doing a Savage impression? Why, he'll be BLACK Machismo! Pacman Jones coming in? Let's get Ron Killings back here quick, cuz Those People are only allowed to tag with each other." Wrestling's always been pretty racist, it just bugs me that even in 2008 there's no real attempt to make it better.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I just hope that ODB/Kong is as good, or close to as good, as Kong/Kim. I'm also hoping to see TNA import some real talent from overseas; Lord knows WWE won't.

 

I don't think this is really logical. Unless they import a Japanese female wrestler who is extremely talented and charismatic, I don't see how brining in someone like that would draw anything for TNA. The women they have now are pretty much solid, and make for a decent women's division (which, as someone who is not even that interested in women's wrestling, is something to make me admit).

[2GOLD 0]

 

Wait, TNA brought in RAIN and Melissa? God damn, it's becoming an Indy's greatest hits of women wrestling in TNA right now. I approve completely. What I am not understanding is why the rest of the company can't be booked to be allowed to have the fun matches with reasonably understandable endings that the ladies are having?

 

Course, having said that they will probably soon make the women's division just as crappy angle wise as the men's division. Which is a damn shame.

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

Wait, TNA brought in RAIN and Melissa? God damn, it's becoming an Indy's greatest hits of women wrestling in TNA right now. I approve completely. What I am not understanding is why the rest of the company can't be booked to be allowed to have the fun matches with reasonably understandable endings that the ladies are having?

 

Course, having said that they will probably soon make the women's division just as crappy angle wise as the men's division. Which is a damn shame.

 

Given that Russo and Dutch have the book, I fear an over-the-top gay male character will win the Knockouts title Hopefully the TNA bookers don't read this thread!

[Guest LuckyLopez]

The depressing part of that would be that TNA did the over the top gay male winning the women's "title" back in the first year of TNA without Russo or Dutch. Alan Funk/Bruce of the Rainbow Express (Lenny & Lodi) as "Miss TNA" complete with dress and tiara. Certainly not one of the company's highlights.

 

As for Shelly, the thing that bugs me is that, right now, every Latino in TNA is currently a member of LAX. (Unless you count Low-Shi, but he's supposedly quit and he clearly wishes he was Japanese anyway.) It's sort of like back when practically every black guy on Raw was in the Nation. Why does every member of a particular race get put with a gimmick which entirely based on that race? Of course, they're not the only ones. "An Indian guy? He'll be a Guru! A black guy doing a Savage impression? Why, he'll be BLACK Machismo! Pacman Jones coming in? Let's get Ron Killings back here quick, cuz Those People are only allowed to tag with each other." Wrestling's always been pretty racist, it just bugs me that even in 2008 there's no real attempt to make it better.

Eh, I know what you're saying but I don't think I can jump on TNA too much. Certainly TNA seems as guilty of occasionally eyebrow raising pairings as any wrestling company. I remember in the early days of TNA Elix Skipper, Ron Killings, and Monty Brown somehow all ending up in the ring together consistently. But at the same time the three of those guys have been in the company at the same time many times since and not been allied. Monty Brown really saw nothing but white allies most of his TNA career. Skipper got teamed with a white guy and a Hispanic (who as you pointed out seems to wish he was Japanese). Killings spent years with a Hispanic and white guy. Of course there's the Dudleyz. Kong is currently running around with an American who appears to be Muslim (both of whom "hail" from Japan). Jackie Moore is with James Storm.

 

I mean I get you. Sonjay being a "Guru." At one time he was allied with Sabu seemingly for no reason other than vaguely shared ethnicity. Killings with Pacman. But I don't know. LAX is a group based on race. Is that racist? I can understand the reaction but its not like people don't hang out or group together based on race in real life in completely un-racist ways. Like interests, like backgrounds, like heritages, like languages. If there were 5 Hispanics in TNA and all were in LAX I could get annoyed. If Gail Kim HAPPENED to be allied with some Asian star and Booker T and Lethal HAPPENED to start tagging together to feud with Elix Skipper who HAPPENED to suddenly be managed by Jackie Moore. Just seems like TNA's got enough color spread around the roster that one Latino tag team managed by a Latina seems reasonable. If they were feuding with a pair of black dudes and a couple of Asians things might get strange looking.

 

But it basically happens all the time. A bunch of Canadians get thrown together as Team Canada. A redneck tag team. A stable of Italian Americans. Some Samoans. Its just shared traits. That those traits are sometimes ethnic, I don't think its always racist. I know I take the WWE's occasional Cryme Tyme or Henry/Viscera tag team a bit easier knowing that they have a variety of men of race used in a variety of roles across the roster. Some of those are ethnic gimmicks or racially theme alliances. But enough of them aren't. I think that's the key.

 

I don't think it HAS to be this way. Sometimes it just is because it makes sense or works. Not to say that TNA, like most of wrestling, can seem to just make eyebrow raising moves with race from time to time. But if Booker T, Kong, Jackie Moore, Elix Skipper, Devon, and Jay Lethal weren't all running around on their own or allied with non African-Americans I'd certainly raise an eyebrow at something like Killings/Pacman.

 

And if you wanna be exact Judas Mesias is Hispanic as well as Senshi. But obviously his gimmick and role in the company doesn't really fit. I don't know if that's a basic disqualifier from this sort of argument or if its basic evidence that TNA can book a Hispanic wrestler as something other than a Hispanic wrestler.

 

 

As far as the Awesome Bomb, I presume its just an unfortunate result. Her name is Awesome Kong. Her finisher is a Powerbomb. Calling it Awesome Bomb seems natural. That there was another wrestler with Awesome in his name and a Powerbomb as a finisher that was called an Awesome Bomb? Oddly enough I don't think I had made that connection until this Sunday's match. I don't know. It doesn't seem disrespectful in any real way, just a natural coincidence.

[Nate 0]

in regards to the Knockout division, this is the best booked thing in TNA right now every girl has great in ring talent minus Christy Hemme, whoever is booking this portion of TNA should book the whole show, hopefully ODB vs Kong can live up to what Kim vs Kong has been

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

LuckyLopez, glad you mentioned the Rainbow Express. Brings back memories. My god was TNA bizarre in 2002. The good stuff was so tremendously good, it made me shell out money for the show every week: Ron Killings, the X Division esp. Low Ki-AJ-Lynn's feud. But the bad was SO BAD, it would have almost been funny if it wasn't so embarassing.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

I just hope that ODB/Kong is as good, or close to as good, as Kong/Kim. I'm also hoping to see TNA import some real talent from overseas; Lord knows WWE won't.

 

I don't think this is really logical. Unless they import a Japanese female wrestler who is extremely talented and charismatic, I don't see how brining in someone like that would draw anything for TNA.

I don't have an obligation to look at anything in terms of what draws and what doesn't; I'm not financing TNA. What I care about is what I want to see on my TV, which is good women's wrestling.

 

It's like when people in the WWE folder complain about Cena; he makes the company scads of money, and it makes good business sense for WWE to have him as a central part of the show and/or as champion. I don't think that the people who hate Cena care whether or not he's over or a draw; why should I?

[Timmy8271 0]

Why should TNA bring in Japanese women? Joshi is basically dead over there anyways. Hell they have joshi promotions over there headlined by 10 year old girls. I"m sure Russo would love that.

 

I like the Knockouts division as it is now. It's headlined by a Manbeast vs the underdog female. Best part of TNA now.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

Why should TNA bring in Japanese women?

Is this directed at me? Because I thought that I was pretty straightforward about why I think TNA should bring in Japanese women.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

The depressing part of that would be that TNA did the over the top gay male winning the women's "title" back in the first year of TNA without Russo or Dutch. Alan Funk/Bruce of the Rainbow Express (Lenny & Lodi) as "Miss TNA" complete with dress and tiara. Certainly not one of the company's highlights.

It's long since come out that Russo was secretly helping write TNA during their formative months. It was one of the reasons Waltman and, as a consequence, Scott Hall left before the end of 2002.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I don't have an obligation to look at anything in terms of what draws and what doesn't; I'm not financing TNA. What I care about is what I want to see on my TV, which is good women's wrestling.

 

Well, other than that idea being totally unrealistic, I think you're in the vast minority. Most American wrestling fans don't give two craps about Japanese female wrestlers.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

:: shrugs ::

 

Being in the minority is nothing new to me.

[Jingus 0]

Sadly, it's been proven time and again that Japanese wrestlers CAN get over in America. Look at the Jumping Bomb Angels, for example. Here was a pair of tiny Asian women, whom the crowd couldn't tell apart, who worked a very un-ladylike workrate style, and were mega-over as babyfaces... in 1980's WWF! There wasn't a promotion on the planet which would've been a less likely place for these girls to succeed, but somehow they did it. If it happened then, in the most cartoonish fed in history, it could certainly work now in a somewhat more wrestling-oriented company like TNA. (Of course, the problem you run into is Russo making them dress in sailor schoolgirl outfits and have them throw wasabi in their opponents' eyes, but hey, Russo'll fuck up anything.)

 

It's happened since then, too. Guys like Great Muta, Jushin Liger and Ultimo Dragon got over just fine in WCW. And then there's Tajiri, whose success should've forever put to rest that tired old bullshit excuse about how if you can't speak English you can't connect with the people. Bullshit! Tajiri was able to get his personality out there, regardless of language.

 

One problem is that sometimes American promoters often don't realize which Japanese workers are really the talented ones. That's how you get loads of suck like Kenzo Suzuki. Even Morishima is kind of an example of this; a good worker, but not even in the top 10 on the NOAH roster.

 

every girl has great in ring talent minus Christy Hemme,

Damn near all Christy ever does is get her ass kicked, and she does that just fine. She's just as good a worker as Velvet or Angelina, and has more personality too.

 

whoever is booking this portion of TNA should book the whole show,

It's Scott D'Amore.

 

hopefully ODB vs Kong can live up to what Kim vs Kong has been

It won't. Part of the Kim/Kong dynamic is how much smaller Kim is; she uses her flying offense, and then Kong breaks her with a power move. ODB is much more muscular and power-based. It's sort of like going from Sting/Vader to Ron Simmons/Vader. The matches were still good, but not the same.

[Guest LuckyLopez]

I don't know that I think Christy is as good a worker as Love and Sky but she's definitely found a niche with her flexibility and personality as Kong's personal tackling dummy. She can basically get squashed in 90 seconds and make it an entertaining 90 seconds. Which is really all TNA's asked of her so as probably the weakest woman of the 12 women division that's pretty good.

 

Yeah, I have no real hope of ODB/Kong living up to Kim/Kong but I don't think it has to. As long as ODB can serve as a viable opponent long enough for Kim to sell the beating. Then I think there's a decent chance at a Kong/Melissa vs Kim/ODB feud. Otherwise I don't know why Melissa would be brought in as Kong's ally unless you planned to do something like that. And doing Kim/Melissa for awhile as a personal roadblock between Kim and Kong could be good.

 

Cena's Torn Pec, thanks for the correction. I wasn't aware of that and I guess that explains a lot of that mess from the early days. I had been believing that the reason that the Jarretts and Russo are friends is because they have the same bizarre sense of humors and both could manage to book gay guys in drag as women's champions for months and inbred brothers and giant penises.

[luke-o 0]

Wow, I didn't think Scott D'Amore was still with the company.

[Downhome 0]

You know what, if I woke up tomorrow and read that TNA has announced that they are going to totally dismantle the heaveyweight and/or X-division in order to focus totally on the Knockouts from here on out, I really wouldn't be all that ticked off. That's how little I care about the world and X title right now. I'm really enjoying the Knockout division right now. There are times that I'll tune in just to see that part of the show and either only halfway watch, or not bother at all, the rest of the show.

 

TNA is a weird company. What they do right, they usually hit a home run with, but when they do something wrong, holy crap do they really get it wrong in just about every single way possible.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Jingus, I'm not disputing that a Japanese woman couldn't get over in the US. However, you reference the Jumping Bomb Angels, who were in the US almost 20 years ago. It was a different environment then...I mean, when most fans were used to the likes of Fabulous Moolah, it would have almost been impossible for the Angels to NOT get over with their superior in-ring work. It's a different time, now, though. If a Japanese woman came in and busted out some powerbombs and flying headscissors, fans would say "We've seen the divas in WWE do this stuff for years." I'm not saying TNA couldn't do it, but I'm pretty skeptical given the current environment and expectations from fans.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

And fans could also say "you know, none of the WWE Divas are this good, so maybe there's something to these Japanese bitches." Because outside of Trish and Mickie James, what WWE Divas do the fans know are GOOD wrestlers? Fans can tell the difference between great, good, passable, and bad in-ring work. That's why they cheer somebody like a CM Punk, who is good, and either boo the shit out of or don't make any noise for a Boogeyman match, who is bad. Joshi talent could get over in the States with the right pushes, and considering how well TNA's Knockouts have been booked thus far? I think one or two of them could come in and own some ass. It's not that often you see American women wrestlers bust out a plethora of suplexes and stiff moves. Only US-based women's wrestlers I can think of that match that description would be Mercedes Martinez and Awesome Kong, actually...

[majormayhem1 0]

This is by far the best Women's wrestling I've ever seen.

So you haven't seen any Japanese women's wrestling at all, Trish's feuds with women like Molly or Mickie, Madusa's good stuff from her prime, or anything with the word "SHIMMER" on it?

 

No, haven't seen a lot of Japanese women's wrestling, other than the Jumping Bomb Angels. I saw a lot of Madusa's matches and she always seemed too good. Her opponents couldn't keep up with her. Haven't seen "SHIMMER." I'm glad to know that there is quality women's wrestling out there, though.

 

The way these two particular women work together and the way the feud is presented week after week are the things that intrigue me the most. Kong makes Kim look great without making herself look weak. Bertha Faye/Alundra Blaze and Bull Nakano/Blaze matches were good, but because they were WWF matches, it took something away.

 

As for Trish, she made a lot of improvements in her game and then she retired when she was beginning to catch on. When Trish and Mickie were main eventing on Raw it wasn't because they were having great matches. It was because the entire show sucked.

 

TNA has a lot of good wrestling based themes right now. It speaks volumes about Kong v. Kim that they are in the main event.

 

In regard to Awesome Kong's name, what else could you name her? She's a wrestler and it fits her gimmick.