This week in the NBA

[naiwf 0]

I think the Lakers just blew their shot at being the # 1 seed in the West and Kobe might end up dropping the MVP to CP3 based on these two horrible losses to the Bobcats and Grizzlies at home.

[Guest]

A lot of people are floating the not healthy excuse for these two losses, but I'm not buying it. When you take the lineup that's lost these games into Utah, Dallas and Golden State to win games, it's something besides being not healthy. The Lakers got NOTHING from any starters but Kobe over these last two games. I think it's time to push Kobe to small forward, get Radmanovic out of the lineup, and slide Sasha in at the 2 to get something going until Bynum comes back. I mean, Sasha played bad tonight, but he's been great since coming back from injury.

 

Bynum's working out and running, so he should be back soon. Real soon. The Lakers most certainly are not out of the fight for the one seed, but things need to pick up. I don't care about the #1 seed though, I just want to get homecourt for the first two rounds. We're a hell of a road team.

[AboveAverage484 0]

Rip, it's because the good colleges that recruits a player to play for their team is so easy to get into, without that scholarship, right? Take advantage of your skills to get a free education, and if you're good enough, your skills will still be there in a year(+) when you go to the NBA and you get the added bonus of learning how to play in a higher pressure environment. Come on, guys. Are you seriously advocating NOT going to college?

 

I am seriously advocating not going to colllege.

 

The point of college is to get the skills and degree that will allow you to get the job and career that you want when done. Why in the hell are they going if they want to be a pro basketball player and have the opportunity to do so? Its like if you wanted to be an animator for Disney, they saw what you could do and said "Hey, we are hiring you". You are saying that you should say "No...you guys are my dream job, but I think I am going to wait a year and keep sending in work so you can nitpick over it and might not even want to hire me anymore instead of taking the job now."

 

College is not a necessity in life. If I want to be a blacksmith and that is what is going to make me happy, I don't need to take 2 years of Special Education to do so.

 

There are legitimate risk to going to play for free. And with the proper donation, I am sure the millionare ex NBA player with the bum knee could still get into Duke if he really wanted to. Robert Swift and Shawn Livingston, if they had their injuries in college, would have gone from lottery picks to Euro league all stars. There is no legit reason to FORCE these kids to risk their professional lives for free.

 

Now if the NCAA instituted some pay scale for these kids or at least programs where their struggling families can get some help while they are forcing their kids to wait 1 or the proposed 3 years to become millionares and get their family out of poverty, I might sway back to the other side. But as of right now, the NCAA is only offering these kids a mean to get known, which some of them don't even need, and thats it. And its not fair.

 

Hell, OJ Mayo just went from a maybe top 3 pick to a top 6-7 maybe...that is a change in payscale there.

 

Rip, is playing overseas for a year and getting paid rather than going to college and not a better option for these kids? I don't really know the details involved in this, but I would think that if a player is highly touted by pro scouts he shouldn't have a problem getting on a team in Europe.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

Rip, is playing overseas for a year and getting paid rather than going to college and not a better option for these kids? I don't really know the details involved in this, but I would think that if a player is highly touted by pro scouts he shouldn't have a problem getting on a team in Europe.

This resembles my feelings on the issue. Maybe these kids should not be getting told that they have to go to college for two years but, at the same time, right to work != right to play in the NBA. If the NBA Players Union agrees to an age limit, that's good enough for me.

 

Let them play for Greece if they need money that bad; Lord knows it's not like they won't get paid.

[Guest Bullshiterica]

I think it is laughably ridiculous that OJ Mayo, Derrick Rose and Michael Beasley just had to waste their time playing in college basketball this year. You know they all probably went to 3 classes between the 3 of them, so it wasn't for education. It was just a way for college hoops to make more money off of kids for free. Screw them and their whining.

 

Also, the "this way they can fall back on their education" argument can lick my sack. If there are people who legitimately earn their diplomas and still struggle to find work out of college, how are freeloading basketball players expected to just "fall back on their education" when their ACLs blow up?

[Brett Favre 0]

It's a business. There's a reason why Derrick Rose went to Memphis, and it wasn't for their education system. Worldwide Wes has a lot to do with where some can't miss highly touted prospects go.

[Kurt Angle Mark 0]

Clippers snap their 10 game losing streak

 

Al Thornton with 39 points

[Darthtiki 0]

Isaiah Rider got arrested again.

[nogoodnick 0]

Isaiah Rider got arrested again.

I didn't realize he was even out of jail.

[dh86 0]

I will never take the pro age limit guys seriously when I saw 18 year old NBA players get chastized for not being ready and told that they should be forced to stay in college whereas many of the same people say nothing about Sidney Crosby being drafted at 17 and making his NHL debut at 18. I also hear people fake concern about the NBA guys saying, they arent possibly ready for the money and lifestyle, yet the Tigers give Rick Porcello a 3.5 million signing bonus at 18 and you dont hear a peep. People like college basketball and college football and they want to protect such along with a tiny hint of racism. There are many players who go pro early in every sport and is not ready. The NBA could easily remedy such by utilizing the NBDL as a true minor league, granting roster exemptions for teams sending players down (like MLB and Hockey) and if they are ready to produce right away, let them play. Michael Beasley wasted a year at Kansas State. LeBron James would have wasted a year at Ohio State. College basketball can only improve players to a certain level. When a player is surpassed that level, it is a injury risk and not much more.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

I only care about college basketball to the extent that I'll take it ten times out of ten over any non-basketball sport. But, relative to the NBA, I couldn't give a fuck less about college basketball. I'm not even going to get into it with you and Ripper over who's come out of high school and been a "good" player, as past discussions have shown that he and I have diametrically different standards for "good players" at the NBA level. I just don't want to see 18 year olds in the NBA as a matter of taste. Like I said before, just because these kids have a right to work and get paid doesn't mean they have a "right" to play in the NBA. I'm glad that the NBA Player Association voted to set an age limit, and not only do I hope they uphold that at the next CBA, I hope that they increase it.

 

Again, let them go overseas if they're so desperate to get paid.

[Brett Favre 0]

Wait so even though they're good enough to play in the NBA, they don't have a right to play in the NBA?

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

No, they don't, because contrary to popular opinion, the NBA doesn't have a monopoly on professional basketball. If their Collective Bargaining Agreement says you must be "x" years old to play for this organization, then you have to be "x" years old. What other leagues do is of little importance. They can play for PAOK, they can play for Euroleague... hell, the NBA doesn't even determine whether a guy can play professionally in the USA; they can play for the ABA or the CBA. But that doesn't mean that they're entitled to be able to play for the NBA. There seems to be some fallacious belief that because the NBA is the biggest dog, that they have to let you in, and it doesn't work like that, especially when a union is involved.

 

Or, to apply Ripper's earlier example, you might be an excellent cartoonist/animator in high school. At 18, you can go to college; if you don't want to go to college, you can go into business for yourself or, you can send your portfolio off to a bunch of different studios and hope to get hired. But just because you have the right to get a job as an animator doesn't mean that you have a right to get a job at Dreamworks or Pixar. Hell, I'm pretty sure that you can't even walk into a job as a plumber or a carpenter at 18, unless you're part of a union. So why should the NBA Player's Union not be entitled to the same protection that's extended to other unions?

[bob_barron 0]

I just don't want to see 18 year olds in the NBA as a matter of taste. Like I said before, just because these kids have a right to work and get paid doesn't mean they have a "right" to play in the NBA. I'm glad that the NBA Player Association voted to set an age limit, and not only do I hope they uphold that at the next CBA, I hope that they increase it.

 

Why though? Guys like Kobe, Garnett and LeBron have all shown that you can be really good coming into the NBA right out of high school. If a player is NBA ready, why don't you want to see them?

 

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

I just don't want to see 18 year olds in the NBA as a matter of taste. Like I said before, just because these kids have a right to work and get paid doesn't mean they have a "right" to play in the NBA. I'm glad that the NBA Player Association voted to set an age limit, and not only do I hope they uphold that at the next CBA, I hope that they increase it.

 

Why though? Guys like Kobe, Garnett and LeBron have all shown that you can be really good coming into the NBA right out of high school. If a player is NBA ready, why don't you want to see them?

 

I just don't want to see 18 year olds in the NBA as a matter of taste...

 

That's why.

 

Ripper says that, for every Gerald Green, there are ten guys that turn out to be good players. Not only do I strongly disagree with that, I go completely the other way: I say that, for every LeBron James, there are three Ndudi Ebis. For every Dwight Howard, there are five Robert Swifts. For every Kevin Garnett, there are six or seven Leon Smiths. I could do without that aggravation.

[Damaramu 0]

It's not like the NBA is the only job in the world with an age limit. You have to be 18 to deliver pizzas where I used to work, 21 to pour and serve alcohol, 35 to be president, etc.

[dh86 0]

I just don't want to see 18 year olds in the NBA as a matter of taste. Like I said before, just because these kids have a right to work and get paid doesn't mean they have a "right" to play in the NBA. I'm glad that the NBA Player Association voted to set an age limit, and not only do I hope they uphold that at the next CBA, I hope that they increase it.

 

Why though? Guys like Kobe, Garnett and LeBron have all shown that you can be really good coming into the NBA right out of high school. If a player is NBA ready, why don't you want to see them?

 

I just don't want to see 18 year olds in the NBA as a matter of taste...

 

That's why.

 

Ripper says that, for every Gerald Green, there are ten guys that turn out to be good players. Not only do I strongly disagree with that, I go completely the other way: I say that, for every LeBron James, there are three Ndudi Ebis. For every Dwight Howard, there are five Robert Swifts. For every Kevin Garnett, there are six or seven Leon Smiths. I could do without that aggravation.

 

While we are making up and twisting stats around to support our viewpoints, For every Tim Duncan theres 10 Ed O'Bannons, for every Jason Kidd theres 6 or 7 Mateen Cleaves for every Shawn Marion theres 6 or 7 Jeryl Sassers. Three of the probable top 5 players in the NBA came right from High School. Theres just as many if not more first round flops from 3 year and 4 year college athletes as there are players out of high school or there for a year. Basically, the only leg you can stand on is the "NBA says its the rule and thats that!". Because you can never prove any correlations otherwise.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

While we are making up and twisting stats around to support our viewpoints, For every Tim Duncan theres 10 Ed O'Bannons, for every Jason Kidd theres 6 or 7 Mateen Cleaves for every Shawn Marion theres 6 or 7 Jeryl Sassers. Three of the probable top 5 players in the NBA came right from High School. Theres just as many if not more first round flops from 3 year and 4 year college athletes as there are players out of high school or there for a year. Basically, the only leg you can stand on is the "NBA says its the rule and thats that!". Because you can never prove any correlations otherwise.

So what? I'd already said that. In my opinion, the only entity that has any say in whether high school kids should be allowed to play in the NBA is the NBA Players' Association ("If the NBA Players Union agrees to an age limit, that's good enough for me."). That seems close enough to me to "NBA says its the rule and thats that," and that was my first contribution to this particular discussion; AFAIC, I don't need a better reason to have my opinion. Coming out of high school, you should have the right to work; that does not mean that you should have the "right" to work for the top company in that industry, for whatever you feel you ought to be getting paid.

 

As far as your comparison between high school busts and college busts, I don't disagree with that, and I don't feel that it disproves or particularly refutes what I said, because the two groups tend to be busts for different reasons. I paid attention to Cleaves throughout the time he spent in Sacramento, and while he is clearly not an NBA-level talent, here's something that I never heard about him: doesn't understand basic concepts about the game. Same for the Ed O'Bannons and Jeryl Sassers of the league.

 

Like I said in my response to bob_barron, it's a matter of taste: I am personally much more forgiving of players who understand the fundamental concepts of basketball and simply don't have the talent to compete on the level they're playing at than I am of players that may be talented, but don't know what the hell they're doing. It's why, for example, I'd rather watch the Spurs than the Warriors. Sebastian Telfair has a boatload of talent... but he doesn't know how to play. Gerald Green may be more talented than, say, Joey Graham, but I'd take Graham ten times out of ten, because I know that Graham knows how to play. At least I know a kid that played 3-4 years of college can be coached.

[Guest]

I will never take the pro age limit guys seriously when I saw 18 year old NBA players get chastized for not being ready and told that they should be forced to stay in college whereas many of the same people say nothing about Sidney Crosby being drafted at 17 and making his NHL debut at 18.

The system is far, far different. The NHL teams just draft a players rights, and they can go into college if they so please, or continue playing junior hockey. Not only that, but Crosby is one of few that was able to stick in the NHL at 18. Rarely ever are players actually good enough to stick in the NHL right after being drafted. A good minor league system keeps things from getting to the point where players aren't being developed, unlike what sometimes happens in the NBA.

 

Some NHL teams don't sign players until 3 or 4 years after drafting them, so yeah. The NHL draft is based on a birthdate, not when you come out of college or declare for the draft.

[Ripper 0]

I just don't want to see 18 year olds in the NBA as a matter of taste. Like I said before, just because these kids have a right to work and get paid doesn't mean they have a "right" to play in the NBA. I'm glad that the NBA Player Association voted to set an age limit, and not only do I hope they uphold that at the next CBA, I hope that they increase it.

 

Why though? Guys like Kobe, Garnett and LeBron have all shown that you can be really good coming into the NBA right out of high school. If a player is NBA ready, why don't you want to see them?

 

I just don't want to see 18 year olds in the NBA as a matter of taste...

 

That's why.

 

Ripper says that, for every Gerald Green, there are ten guys that turn out to be good players. Not only do I strongly disagree with that, I go completely the other way: I say that, for every LeBron James, there are three Ndudi Ebis. For every Dwight Howard, there are five Robert Swifts. For every Kevin Garnett, there are six or seven Leon Smiths. I could do without that aggravation.

 

You call it aggravation all you want, but facts are facts. There aren't six or seven Leon Smiths. There aren't five robert swifts. their aren't three Ndubi Ebis. You named the few guys period.

 

there has only been 41 overall. And just because you said you didn't want to go through it again....I will!

 

Since 1995(Since Garnett, when this argument has can really be started) there has been 36 guys.

 

The Guys that have been great or at very least solid NBA pros that I can name 10 college players that got drafted high that they are better than and I honestly don't see how you could put up a argument otherwise:

 

Kevin Garnett

Kobe Bryant

Jermaine O'Neal

Tracy McGrady

Stephen Jackson

Al Harrington

Rashard Lewis

DeShawn Stevenson

Tyson Chandler

Eddy Curry

DeDangna Diop

Amare Stoudimire

Lebron James

Travis Outlaw

Dwight Howard

Shaun Livingston

Al Jefferson

Josh Smith

Dorell Wright

Martell Webster

Andrew Bynum

Monta Ellis

Louis Williams

Andray Blatche

Amir Johnson

Kedrick Perkins

J.R. Smith

 

I can see you TRYING to make a argument otherwise for these guys, although I completely disagree:

 

Darius Miles - Yes he was drafted high, way too high, but he basically got better every year, He has three season of averaging double figures. He is a perfectly good NBA role player/defender (before the injury).

 

Sebastian Telfair - Has had a damn good year in Minnesota and is a perfectly acceptable NBA point guard with his 9 points, 6 assist year with a 3-1 assist to turnover ratio.

 

CJ Miles: He is being Sloan'd right now. But anyone that has watched this kid play knows full well that he is going to have a future. And on top of that he was a SECOND round pick.

 

Kwame Brown: One of the best on the ball defending big men in the NBA. He pretty much sucks at everything else because of his little baby hands. If he was a number 20 pick people would love his defensive ability. He basically gives you the same thing guys like Shawn Williams, Josh Boone, and Desgana Diop gives you now, only he was a number one pick thus he gets crucified. I still think he is a decent pro...just not offensively.

 

Gerald Green - Kid has a place in the league...thats all I can really say.

 

Certified bust list:

 

Korleone Young

Jonathan Bender(a little not fair seeing as he was gone because of injuries...nothing would have changed going into college for him except him being the number one pick in the draft)

Leon Smith (Kid just had issues)

Ousmane Cisse (was just retarded for declaring)

Ndudi Ebi

James Lang

Robert Swift(another injury case. He is done only because of that. When healthy, he looked like he had a future)

 

I just don't like talking in estimates. I like talking in absolutes. And in absolutes, most of the prep to pro players have become solid to VERY good pros.

 

There just isn't a realistic argument about these kids hurting the league and college kids being better.

 

 

[Maztinho 0]

Miles has gotten good minutes as of late mainly because of stomach flu that hit the Jazz, but he gets solid rotation otherwise.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

1. As I said before, you and I have different definitions of "solid." Maybe you place a higher premium on potential than I do, but I don't consider Livingston, Wright, Blatche, Johnson, Telfair or Green to be "solid." And what is your definition of "drafted high," exactly? Is "high" covered by the entire first round?

 

2. I didn't say they were better, I said that they didn't have to learn how to play. Ed O'Bannon, Mateen Cleaves, Shawn Respert, Jeryl Sasser, Randolph Childress... They were all busts in the NBA. As were others that played 3-4 years of college. But they didn't have to be taught how to play when they got to the NBA. They knew how to play, they just didn't have the talent to play at the NBA level. As I said in my last post, I would rather see players that know how, even if they aren't very good, than 'diamonds in the rough.' Maybe it's just me, but I already qualified my statement as being a matter of taste.

 

3. Your numbers are impressive, and I concede that I can't dispute hard math, but I feel that it doesn't disprove my argument. I've never said that college players are empirically better than high school players, and I've never said that high school players don't pan out. What I've said is that these kids coming out of high school have to learn how to play. And that irks me. Only a handful of these guys were legitimately ready coming out of high school and, in my opinion, if it takes you a couple of years to "figure it out," then you should go to college, anyway. Or go play for the ABA if you don't want to go to college. I don't want to see millionaires learning on the job.

[Ripper 0]

But the point is, when college players come in, they also have to learn on the job.

 

College players typically arent ready to contribute their rookie year either.

 

They are making the same millions to learn on the job. Only would you rather have a 21 year old, 3 year vet or a 26 year old 3 year vet when they are ready to contribute?

 

 

[Jorge Gorgeous 0]

When it comes to logic, I don't see how anyone could argue with Ripper here. I'm not going to rehash his argument, but I would like to re-emphasize his point that NBA Coaching>College Coaching.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

But the point is, when college players come in, they also have to learn on the job.

 

College players typically arent ready to contribute their rookie year either.

 

They are making the same millions to learn on the job. Only would you rather have a 21 year old, 3 year vet or a 26 year old 3 year vet when they are ready to contribute?

I'll respectfully disagree to this extent (while openly admitting that I haven't done the research on this): I think that the learning curve is significantly shorter for kids that go to college. I think that those players that played at least two years of college pick up both offensive and defensive schemes faster, they figure out what they can rely on in the NBA faster, and generally seem able to contribute to a winning environment more quickly. I feel that, in general, it probably takes the average upperclassman 1-2 years to "find their level" in the NBA, whereas it seems to take the high school kids and underclassmen closer to 3-4, or even 5 years. I don't think that college upperclassmen are "learning on the job" nearly to the degree that underclassmen and high schoolers seem to.

[Maztinho 0]

Breaking in to say that Utah _murdered_ the Wizards by 40. With CJ Miles being the leading scorer, so it kinda plays into the Ripper/Slim discussion.

 

YAY JAZZ!

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

Kwame Brown scored thirty points once, too.

 

Propers to Miles, though; it's not like I ever said these kids can't play...

[Guest (Loggins Name)]

I keep reading your name as "Matzo." Was this a Passover-themed name change?