CTDWAT: TNA Edition

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

I never really thought I'd see somebody compare Christian's debut to TNA, to probably the best debut in wrestling history like Jericho to WWE.

 

YAWN. 30 seconds for the caricature to show up, that's got to be some sort of record. I didn't compare the debuts, I compared where the two were located in the card in the companies they left and their being pushed by their new organizations right away because that's what fans wanted to see.

[The Truthiness 0]

Yeah, the thing is Christian's run in WWE's midcard was nothing like Jericho's run in WCW. Christian had a pretty good spot, where as Jericho was punished for getting over in WCW.

[cabbageboy 0]

Yeah Christian was far more successful in terms of getting title shots and winning matches. Jericho had an amusing first night in the WWF, but didn't do shit for months and was jobbing to Chyna and stuff, struggling with the Road Dog and X-Pac, etc.

 

There's another aspect to this Machismo/So Cal Val angle losing viewers that hasn't been mentioned, namely the interracial marriage aspect. Didn't someone post a while ago on here that TNA's biggest demographic is men in their 40s and 50s? TNA from the beginning was a promotion appealing to rednecks, hell they still feature a NASCAR driver on the show, so I can see a bunch of NASCAR dads being pissed about this angle.

 

 

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

Yeah, the thing is Christian's run in WWE's midcard was nothing like Jericho's run in WCW. Christian had a pretty good spot, where as Jericho was punished for getting over in WCW.

 

Let's see:

 

JTTS? Check. Jericho was fed to Goldberg not long before leaving, Christian to Cena.

 

Mid-card title runs? Check. Jericho had the TV Title run in his last stretch, Christian was a perpetual IC holder/contender.

 

Over with the fans for good mic and ring work? Check.

 

So that's "nothing" alike?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah Christian was far more successful in terms of getting title shots and winning matches. Jericho had an amusing first night in the WWF, but didn't do shit for months and was jobbing to Chyna and stuff, struggling with the Road Dog and X-Pac, etc.

 

That's true. Jericho did get the IC quickly though, and had the Triple H "title win" within 6 months of being in the company.

[cabbageboy 0]

I'd also say Edge and Christian acting like goofs = Jericho's Man of 1004 Holds gimmick in terms of amusing comedy heel antics. E & C probably drew more money since they had the TLC matches and such.

[Jingus 0]

The point is that, five times now, TNA has taken someone that the WWE let go, someone who had never been treated as a main eventer in that company and then made them world champion. Sure, Killings wasn't there long and Raven was better known for his earlier stuff and Shamrock was more of a shootfighting guy and Rhino wasn't in theory supposed to get the belt and Christian had allegedly been unfairly held down. But those are just excuses.

 

It's a very precise sequence:

 

1. WWE hires person.

2. WWE does not push person to main event.

3. Person quits/gets fired.

4. TNA hires person.

5. TNA puts world championship on person.

 

This has happened five times, five times, five times in exactly that manner. That's a pretty clear pattern, regardless of what the individual piddling circumstances were. They're even in line to keep doing it if they ever decide to give Tomko or Morgan the belt. How can you say this isn't a trend?

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

This would make twice in less than 30 minutes that something I didn't say was attributed to me. Am I missing something? I didn't say it's not a trend, was just making a few points on the guys mentioned. Personally my favorite title reign in the company was AJ Styles' first. I wish Monty Brown had been given a reign. And so on. I do think booking WWE castoffs too strongly is a weakness of the company: notice I didn't mention Kurt Angle? He shouldn't have been anything more than a JTTS to put over Samoa Joe, AJ Styles, and yes Christian or Tomko.

[Jingus 0]

My point is, they're more than happy to put the world belt on guys who were considered Just Another Midcarder in the WWE. As Truthy pointed out Shamrock was another one, and hell you could even count Killings and Raven if you defined it broadly enough.

(long argument)

I say it's a trend. You deconstruct each title reign individually to dispute my claim. What words am I putting in your mouth?

[Jingus 0]

Not that I think many of these choices are necessarily a bad thing. Shamrock was a good enough champ for a new startup company, Christian wasn't used to his full potential in the WWE, and and Killings' title reign was just some kind of miracle. Raven and Rhino I'm not so solid on, but at the time anything was better than another minute of Jarrett. TNA is right to at least attempt to elevate talent which its nearest competition had overlooked. I'm just noting that way more often do you see a former WWE undercard guy become TNA Champion than you do the other way around.

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

My point is, they're more than happy to put the world belt on guys who were considered Just Another Midcarder in the WWE. As Truthy pointed out Shamrock was another one, and hell you could even count Killings and Raven if you defined it broadly enough.

(long argument)

I say it's a trend. You deconstruct each title reign individually to dispute my claim. What words am I putting in your mouth?

 

How can you say this isn't a trend?

 

When did I say this "isn't a trend"? I merely made a few points on the examples.

 

And jeez, one paragraph is a "long argument"?

[Corkscrew_Senton 0]

Not that I think many of these choices are necessarily a bad thing. Shamrock was a good enough champ for a new startup company, Christian wasn't used to his full potential in the WWE, and and Killings' title reign was just some kind of miracle. Raven and Rhino I'm not so solid on, but at the time anything was better than another minute of Jarrett. TNA is right to at least attempt to elevate talent which its nearest competition had overlooked. I'm just noting that way more often do you see a former WWE undercard guy become TNA Champion than you do the other way around.

 

This is true, can't dispute that. Monty Brown really should have had a title reign, namely in late 2004/early 2005. Joe should have won the belt in late 2006. I also think they could have pulled the trigger on Chris Harris last summer.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

There's an opposite way to look at all of that tough.

 

They may be "excuses" but let's examine another side to all of those titles the WWE midcard racked up:

 

1. Ken Shamrock. They had 3 "name" guys in the company when it launched, Jarrett, Shamrock and Hall. I honestly don't even think that the pre-3 hour ppvs should be in this conversation since it was a completely different and failed experiment they were running with guys under barely any contracts and options extrememly limited in the beginning. They run their talent at a 180 degree angle from what they were doing in the beginning. But Shamrock was the first champion getting the call over drug addict Hall and the only guy who they knew wasn't going to be leaving the company, heel Jarrett. I'm not going to fantasy book here...but you either have a heel close your first pay per view with the win...or Shamrock pretty much had to be the guy.

 

2. Ron Killings. It irks me that we're including him in the discussion because anyone who watched that first 2 months of TNA knows what happened here. They had a guy who worked in the WWE. They gave him a mic and he got himself over. They made the absolute right call of putting the title on him. Killings' title win is one of the top few moments that I think this company has had from an "establishing yourself as something different" standpoint...so his inclusion on a list of "they put the title on midcard WWE guys" seems counterproductive to what his push actually accomplished.

 

3. Raven. He's only on the list because he worked in the WWE. It's not like he showed up and they handed him the title (which I might point out is one of the things that people complain MOST about). It wasn't WWE fans cheering for him when he showed up...it was Raven fans who were psyched to see him in a setting where he might actually get pushed again. Which only ended up happening to a low degree anyway. Which is more of a fault than the culmination of his "destiny".

 

4. Rhino. He's never been pushed as the top guy and again, only had a cup of coffee with the title because they couldn't deliver on their Bound For Glory main event. They could have chosen Abyss or gone back to Styles again and it would have probably been a BETTER choice...but they went with Rhino who was the freshest face to the company only having been in a few months and not ruined by their own booking yet.

 

5. Christian. Easily the guy who best fits the argument that they'll put the titles on the WWE midcarders, because that's exactly what he was. I won't even get into how over he got himself that year playing off of Cena or that his subsequent burial after being switched to Smackdown is what lead to his departure in the first place... Far more important is the fact that he is the only guy to actually choose to work for TNA over the WWE. The Dudley's try to claim it, Angle tries to say he got fired on purpose, even Kaz left WWE with a hope of getting picked back up...but Christian actually jumped. At the time the only thing in the main event was Jarrett again.

 

 

Now...onto the big one...and the far more detrimental one and where the train really went off track.

 

It wasn't a WWE midcarder...but a main eventer who stunted TNA's growth.

 

TNA didn't take a look at Samoa Joe and decide that he was something that they could try and build their company around until it was (as many have said) a year and a half past his time. Now...the first 6 months of that time is their own fault for playing out the Sting/Jarrett feud for 10 fucking months. Joe was ready when he beat Steiner. Even WCW got this one right and put Goldberg over Hogan when the iron was hot. But TNA blew that. So when the circle comes back around and Joe is the obvious guy that belongs on top...Angle's their long term champion choice. Now...Angle is clearly a more established than the 5 guys above...but his place on top did more to hold back the promotion from gaining it's own identity than anything else.

 

When you look back on their championship choices...the biggest problems aren't the "WWE midcard" guys that they picked to have runs...they all came at a time when there was no clear choice (Christian or Shamrock) or they actually WERE the fresh thing (Truth) or a culmination of a long wait (Raven) or an injury (Rhino)...

 

The BIGGEST problems are the times when they passed on making it a new guys time that could have given them something fresh and different on top:

 

1. AJ Styles should have beaten Jeff Jarrett when he had his first title shot way way back before they put him with Russo. Now...he ended up getting 3 title reigns...but that night would have done a lot to say to everyone they were different. Instead they worked to make him like everyone else before he could win.

 

2. Monty Brown should have pinned Jeff Jarrett clean on Impact when he no sold that guitar shot.

 

3. If Abyss was going to get his thanks for killing yourself title reign...he should have beaten Sting for real and not the lame ass way they did it.

 

4. Samoa Joe should have AT THE VERY LEAST been the one to win the TNA title instead of Angle last Slammiversary (although I'd have found time for him to do it before).

 

...

 

In the end...at least they didn't put the title on Jeff Hardy when he didn't like showing up for shows.

 

...

 

I don't even feel like posting this because I know what's going to happen next.

[LuckyLopez 0]

I'm just noting that way more often do you see a former WWE undercard guy become TNA Champion than you do the other way around.

Is that really a notable point though? TNA is not of the same pedigree as WWE. That's obvious. Its only 6 years old and is a growing company that only recently began regular touring or primetime TV. A former employee from a Fortune 500 company is more likely to be promoted in a midlevel company than a former employee of that midlevel company is to end up on top of a Fortune 500. WWE is more likely to lose or fire someone who is on a high level than TNA is. Because guys like Christian, Angle, and Booker T was theoretically expendable to WWE because of its stability and the presence of main eventers established for years or even a decade or so.

 

Factor in that WWE was for a few years there the only dog in the race and had most of the quality talent that came out of WCW and ECW. Guys like Raven, Rhino, or Booker T who would be more closely associated with those companies by most passed through WWE, and because of all the talent WWE had thanks to the monopoly it was much easier to bury an ECW main eventer and WCW midcarder like Raven in the WWE lower card.

 

Guys who worked the midcard in WWE sometimes reach the highest level in TNA. Its not as if TNA hotshotted the title on Christian, Raven, Rhino, or Angle the second they got in the company (in fact, in Raven's case they waited well past the point that many fans wanted it). Its not as if its been some kind of mandate since Booker hasn't gotten it and neither have Tomko, Jeff Hardy, Scott Steiner, VKM, Team 3D, Rikishi, Test, Dustin Rhodes, Morgan, The Bashams, Hall, Nash, Syxx, Spike Dudley, or any other former WWE employees who passed through or remain on the roster. So I'm not sure what the pattern is. Some WWE midcarders and main eventers win the TNA Title after differing passages of time, while some continue to wait, will likely never get it, or left TNA without it ever happening.

 

Could Lashley win the TNA Title? Of course. Would he probably end up in the upper midcard/main event upon arriving in TNA? Of course. But isn't that kind of where he fits from a simple matter of profile and resume? And don't get me wrong, I think TNA has reached for past WWE employees and gave them spots based on reps and WWE creds when it wasn't for the best (see VKM) but it seems ridiculous that people still say things like "Lashley would get the title right away if he showed up in TNA, because he's from WWE" when Booker T has been there for 6 months and is just now getting in his first title feud and Angle went 8 months before winning the belt.

 

TNA makes mistakes of varying levels and it hires many more WWE castoffs than WWE hires TNA castoffs. Which seems like a simple matter of the relative position of the two companies and the nature of their rosters. TNA is a growing company only 6 years old that has only recently gained anything close to the profile or level of WWE (and really aren't that close at all). Resources that WWE deems invaluable to them have a good chance to be deemed valuable to TNA. TNA has been gradually building a roster for years adding what it can when it becomes available. WWE has essentially been working down a super roster from their Monday Night War victory which gave them the opportunity to have pretty much everyone and anyone they wanted, even when they seemed to have little interest in them. If tomorrow WWE were to fire Cena for some insane reason TNA would jump at the chance because he is a huge commodity. If WWE were to fire Shelton Benjamin they might jump at that too because many have deemed him a misused resource for years. Its simply less likely by simple logic that WWE would be excited for Bobby Roode if he was fired tomorrow.

 

And its not as if TNA has reached out to Chris Masters yet or anything. Knock on wood.

[Broward83 0]

To anyone who may have gone to a TNA ppv outside of Orlando:

 

How available were tickets leading up to the night of the show? I'm thinking of going to Victory Road but am waiting to purchase tickets because I've heard of them simply handing tickets out or upgrading seats.

 

Any answers would be appreciated.

[luke-o 0]

From what I can gather, tickets never really sell out at TNA events. You could proabably get them pretty close to the time.

[Matt Young 0]

Victory Road poster revealed:

 

[RedJed 0]

Victory Road poster revealed:

 

 

As I was thinking, it's appearing to be Booker v. Joe in Houston (Booker's hometown of course) for the next ppv. Kind of spoils the main event for this Sunday's ppv, but I don't think most expected Joe to lose that match anyway.

 

Booker/Joe can be a strong draw for the next ppv if the build is solid. It's fresh and if they keep going the way they are going with the way Booker is being treated as a character, he should be credible going into the match.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

That looks fake.

[luke-o 0]

I'm guessing fake.

[LivingLegendGaryColeman 0]

If that main event was true, which even if the poster is fake, it has a good chance of being the real main event, I'm not sure if that is the best choice. With the smarky crowds that show up to TNA and Booker in his hometown, Booker's overness will probably make Joe look bad.

[TheFranchise 0]

That poster looks awesome.

[Matt Young 0]

People said the Sacrifice poster was fake, and it wasn't. This one's not fake, either.

[cd213 0]

for some reason I can see Booker winning the title that the PPV, just so he can be King Booker again. I know I can't be the only one to hear the king accent coming out the last couple of weeks.

[LivingLegendGaryColeman 0]

for some reason I can see Booker winning the title that the PPV, just so he can be King Booker again. I know I can't be the only one to hear the king accent coming out the last couple of weeks.

 

Yeah, they have been playing it up and saying royalty. I think they'd have to go with something like "Royal T" Booker T or something because didn't WWE trademark King Booker?

[cd213 0]

I actually like Royal T, that has a pretty good ring to it.

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

He called himself Royal T a week or so ago. It's just nobody else started doing it.

[tekcop 0]

So, I'm going to... uh... Slammiversary? Is that the next PPV? It's a last minute decision. I haven't watched TNA in a year or so, and haven't even seen a single minute of Impact in a few months, anyone want to catch me up on what's going on? I looked up the card, and it looks like it could be pretty fun at least.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

The first and most important thing is that despite the questionable booking, their ppvs on the road are usually very fun to attend. And for all their faults, they really treat the fans well when you attend.

 

Onto the show:

 

Joe is champion and defending in the King of the Mountain Match against Christian, Rhino, Robert Roode and newly heel Booker T (who is his stiffest challenger at this point and the only guy other than Joe who would make sense winning this match)

 

AJ just turned face, and he's awesome again. Angle hasn't wrestled since his injury...but you know that never stops him from going all out. This is their first match...so that's cool.

 

All the stuff with the women has been really good...and they always deliver...so that should be a fun watch too.

 

Other than that...there's a shocking lack of gimmick matches (other than the Main Event) which is quite refreshing to see.

[Jingus 0]

This is their first match...so that's cool.

I think they've wrestled at least once on Impact, but it was a three-minute bit of nothing iirc.

[luke-o 0]

I actually don't think they've had a singles match yet. I'm fairly certain they haven't anyway.

 

Other than the matches that bps listed, you also get a wedding segement with Jake Roberts and a host of other 80's icons. Lucky you.