Flair's 16 title reigns

[Just call me Dan 0]

Flair had 16 World Title reigns. No one has ever acheived such. Although the number is actually higher, it historically stands at 16.

 

We've all speculated that Triple H's emulation of Flair would culminate in him being the one with the World Title record, and his standing at 11 with the 12th lingering in the near future make it seem even more inevitable.

 

What about Kurt Angle's 12, though?

 

Does that count in your eyes?

 

Does having World titles in multiple organizations (much like Flair) make Angle's more or less legit?

 

Who do you think wll reach 16 (+) first?

 

Who else could you see lasting long enough to make a run at Flair or the new record holder's number?

 

Just a thought I had that I'd like to see debated here.

 

Thanks in advance.

[foleyfanforever88 0]

How does Angle have 12 title reigns?

[fazzle 0]

I'm gonna go with Orton. He's only 28 years old, and is already (technically) a 3 time champion.

 

By the time it's all said and done, he'll be the one to break Flair's (or whoever holds it at the time) record.

[dubq 0]

I'm also wondering how Angle is a 12 time World Champion?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Angle#Ch...accomplishments

 

2 Time TNA

1 Time "WCW"

4 Time WWE

1 Time World Heavyweight

[fazzle 0]

I'm also wondering how Angle is a 12 time World Champion?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Angle#Ch...accomplishments

 

2 Time TNA

1 Time "WCW"

4 Time WWE

1 Time World Heavyweight

 

 

Probably counting all those other titles Angle carried around with him at one point in TNA.

[Just call me Dan 0]

How many times was he IWGP? I say 12 because he claims 12 on his merchandise. He had a shirt that read 11X on the front, and he covered it with a 12 after his latest title win.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

He was counting his IC/European/etc titles though. So it's really just like 8 or 9.

[Just call me Dan 0]

That's odd. I thought the number was high, but I thought he traded IWGP with Brock 2 or 3 times or something, and maybe counted his olympic gold medal. Well, I guess leaving his name out of it, do you really think Triple H's body could hold up for 5 more title runs?

[Dobbs 3K 0]

I don't think Triple H is going to break the record. I could be wrong, but I get the sense from looking at the guy that his body maybe isn't holding up that well from all the injuries he's had. I would guess he might have only two or three years left in him as a regular in-ring performer, honestly.

 

Of course, people thought Undertaker was going to be retired like five years ago, so who really knows?

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

To my knowledge Angle beat Brock for the IWGP once, and then Angle lost the belt to Nagata in an unification match and never saw it again. So he's only a 1 time IWGP champion.

[LuckyLopez 0]

Angle was counting his World Tag Titles and World X Title.

 

1 IWGP

2 TNA

1 WCW

4 WWF/E

1 "World Heavyweight"

 

9 World Titles by traditional standards. He got it up to 12 by taking the titles literally and treating World Tag Team Titles as they're advertised.

 

1 X

1 TNA Tag

1 WWE Tag Team

 

Intercontinental or European titles would clearly not qualify as they are specifically not "World" titles.

 

He's at 9 for "World Titles" as we usually refer them. The top title of the company. And even that is kind of iffy since the IWGP title had been stripped from Brock before he lost it to Angle and his 2 TNA wins came when he was rewarded the title after he and Sting both had submissions on the champ but was then stripped of it and won the vacant title a month later. Needless to say, Angle's number is inflated (although that stuff happens I guess as Orton has 2 title victories in one night and HHH got a 2 hour title reign on a recent WWE PPV).

[Perfection 0]

I don't think Triple H is going to break the record. I could be wrong, but I get the sense from looking at the guy that his body maybe isn't holding up that well from all the injuries he's had. I would guess he might have only two or three years left in him as a regular in-ring performer, honestly.

 

Of course, people thought Undertaker was going to be retired like five years ago, so who really knows?

 

I agree. I think HHH will be the first. But wrestling historians will know flair actually had 20 something technically so that will probably never be beaten. I wouldn't be surprised if Flair actually wants him to beat it knowing how close they are. But even if he does, it won't be looked at in the same way as Flair since Flair did it across multiple promotions and over a very long career. He was also about the closest to a real world champion in wrestling as you will ever see since he traveled all around the world defending the title to local heroes and such. With regards to orton. Too soon to say...yes he's young but he is going to have to go a long time without getting injured to accomplish it. Same with Cena But it will be either him or cena that does it next, if they last long enough.

[Hawk 34 0]

Does the # of title reigns hold value anymore? It used to be that being a 5 time champion was a very big deal but we're approaching the point where Randy Orton will probably pass that mark by 2010, if not sooner. What about TBS? While it's not valued as such, the ECW World Title would be included, which gives him a total of 5 world title reigns. Is CM Punk a legitimate 2 time world champion?

 

That's why it's ultimately irrelevant these days because value of championships shift constantly. 15 of those reigns of Ric Flair have value and one doesn't. That being said, I don't think Triple H would allow himself to pass Flair but Angle is the type of guy who'd push to rack up his total because of his own deluded sense of place in the history books.

[Promoter 0]

Well thing might happen and that is less multiple reigns for no reason, but hotshotting. I'm sure they don't want just anybody close or breaking Flair's record. Russo 1999 no more although it racked up ratings because titles hardly changed hands prior to that year.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I kinda like to look more at length of time holding the titles relative to the era their in.

 

No one's going to hold titles as long as lou Thesz did...but that was a different era. I mean...if you go by number of reigns....is it his fault that he'd hold it for years without losing it? Isn't it actually better?

 

For example...Dusty rhodes is a 3 time world champion. ...for a grand total of like...less than a month. So who gives an F?

 

Dusty did it during a time when people were holding titles for longer periods on average...

 

Is there ANY way possible that his 3 reigns should be held in higher regard than...JBL's one? He held a world title FAR longer in an era where titles weren't held as long as Dusty's time period.

 

That's just a random example...but I don't think having a high title # is as impressive.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

but I don't think having a high title # is as impressive

 

Of course it isn't. Being a 16-time champ means you LOST the belt 16 times.

[cd213 0]

It Ric Flairs' 16 times World Champion a record. I could have sworn that I heard that the record was something in the 20's.

[majormayhem1 0]

No one's going to hold titles as long as lou Thesz did...but that was a different era. I mean...if you go by number of reigns....is it his fault that he'd hold it for years without losing it? Isn't it actually better?

 

For example...Dusty rhodes is a 3 time world champion. ...for a grand total of like...less than a month. So who gives an F?

 

Dusty did it during a time when people were holding titles for longer periods on average...

 

Is there ANY way possible that his 3 reigns should be held in higher regard than...JBL's one? He held a world title FAR longer in an era where titles weren't held as long as Dusty's time period.

 

I agree with you BPS. Look at Jerry Lawler's reign over the USWA. He held the title 30-40 times.

 

On a similar note, where does the Godfather and Val Venis rank amongst other multiple time IC champions like Mr. Perfect, Tito Santana, Greg Valentine, etc.?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Here's a list I put together of World Champions with the longest combined days as champ. I probably missed some things here and there, but it's a pretty good indication.

 

1. Verne Gagne (4,690 days)

2. Bruno Sammartino (4,040)

3. Lou Thesz (3,749)

4. Ric Flair (3,744)

5. Hulk Hogan (3,362)

6. Nick Bockwinkel (2,990)

7. Bob Backlund (2,138)

8. Harley Race (1,801)

9. Dory Funk Jr. (1,563)

10. Dan Severn (1,559)

 

If you don't buy the NWA title in the '90s as legit, next is Pat O'Connor for holding both the NWA and AWA titles at the same time. Gene Kiniski with 1,159 days is the next legit champion on the list.

[Carnival 0]

Ric Flair is really a 24x World Champion

 

14x NWA

8x WCW

2x WWF

 

Just going by that shirt they have on WWE.com, here are the reigns not mentioned. The have listed, 7x NWA, 7x WCW and 2x WWF.

 

1(NWA)- 1983, Dusty Rhodes beat Flair for the title while masked as the "Midnight Rider", Rhodes then relinquished the belt when asked to reveal his identity.

 

2(NWA)- 1983, Jack Veneno beat Flair for the title in the Dominican Republic, then "gave" the title back to him.

 

3(NWA)- 1983, Victor Jovica beat Flair for the title, same situation as Veneno.

 

4(NWA)- 1983, Carlos Colon beat Flair in Puerto Rico for the title, then lost it back to him in Florida days later.

 

5(NWA)- 1984, Flair dropped the title to Harley Race in New Zealand then won it back days later in Singapore.

 

6(NWA)- 1991, listed as a WCW title win, he actually won the NWA belt from Sting and was then considered the first WCW champion.

 

7(NWA)- 1991, Flair lost the "WCW/NWA" title(s) to Tatsumi Fujinami in Japan. WCW ruled the bout a DQ and kept the WCW title on Flair, but Fujinami was still recognized NWA champion, so Flair beat him at Superbrawl to re-unify the title.

 

8(WCW)- 1994, Title was held up after a double pin finish in a match with Steamboat, Flair then won a re-match for the vacant title.

[Carnival 0]

List of most prolific world champions (american titles only, includes, NWA(1948-present), WWE(1963-present), WCW(1991-2001)/WWEWorld(2002-present), TNA(2007-present), ECW(1992-2001,2006-present), AWA(1960-1991))

For the record I consider the WCW/WWE World title to be one title history, but i will show them as seperate. I will order these according to # of total titles, if tied then chronological.

 

 

1. Ric Flair - 24 (14xNWA/8xWCW/2xWWE)

2. Hulk Hogan - 14 (7xWCW/6xWWE/1xAWA)

3. Triple H - 11 (6xWWE/5xWWEWorld)

4. Verne Gagne - 10 (10xAWA)

5. Jeff Jarrett - 10 (6xNWA/4xWCW)

6. The Rock - 9 (7xWWE/2xWCW)

7. Sting - 9 (6xWCW/2xNWA/1xTNA)

8. Harley Race - 8 (8xNWA)

9. Kurt Angle - 8 (4xWWE/2xTNA/1xWCW/1xWWEWorld)

10. Bret Hart - 7 (5xWWE/2xWCW)

11. Randy Savage - 6 (4xWCW/2xWWE)

12. Kevin Nash - 6 (5xWCW/1xWWE)

13. Steve Austin - 6 (6xWWE)

14. Booker T - 6 (5xWCW/1xWWEWorld)

15. The Undertaker - 6 (4xWWE/2xWWEWorld)

16. Mad Dog Vachon - 5 (5xAWA)

17. Nick Bockwinkel - 5 (5xAWA)

18. The Sandman - 5 (5xECW)

19. Shane Douglas - 5 (4xECW/1xNWA)

20. The Big Show - 5 (2xWWE/2xWCW/1xECW)

21. Buddy Rodgers - 4 (3xNWA/1xWWE)

22. Lou Thesz - 4 (4xNWA)

23. Dusty Rhodes - 4 (4xNWA)

24. Bob Backlund - 4 (4xWWE)

25. Sid Vicious - 4 (2xWWE/2xWCW)

26. Shawn Michaels - 4 (3xWWE/1xWWEWorld)

27. Edge - 4 (2xWWE/2xWWEWorld)

28. Crusher Lisowski - 3 (3xAWA)

29. Giant Baba - 3 (3xNWA)

30. Vader - 3 (3xWCW)

31. Terry Funk - 3 (2xECW/1xNWA)

32. Mick Foley - 3 (3xWWE)

33. Diamond Dallas Page - 3 (3xWCW)

34. Sabu - 3 (2xECW/1xNWA)

35. Chris Jericho - 3 (2xWCW/1xWWE)

36. Brock Lesnar - 3 (3xWWE)

37. Goldberg - 3 (2xWCW/1xWWEWorld)

38. A.J. Styles - 3 (3xNWA)

39. Raven - 3 (2xECW/1xNWA)

40. John Cena - 3 (3xWWE)

41. Batista - 3 (3xWWEWorld)

42. Randy Orton - 3 (2xWWE/1xWWEWorld)

43. Bruno Sammartino - 2 (2xWWE)

44. Jack Brisco - 2 (2xNWA)

45. Jerry Lawler - 2 (2xAWA)

46. Larry Zbyszko - 2 (2xAWA)

47. Jimmy Snuka - 2 (2xECW)

48. Don Muraco - 2 (2xECW)

49. Yokozuna -2 (2xWWE)

50. Lex Luger - 2 (2xWCW)

51. Naoya Ogawa - 2 (2xNWA)

52. Mike Awesome - 2 (2xECW)

53. Taz - 2 (2xECW)

54. Mike Rapada - 2 (2xNWA)

55. Steve Corino - 2 (1xECW/1xNWA)

56. Dan Severn - 2 (2xNWA)

57. Chris Benoit - 2 (1xWCW/1xWWEWorld)

58. Ron Killings - 2 (2xNWA)

59. Rhino - 2 (1xECW/1xNWA)

60. Rob Van Dam - 2 (1xWWE/1xECW)

61. Christian Cage - 2 (2xNWA)

62. Vince McMahon - 2 (1xWWE/1xECW)

63. Bobby Lashley - 2 (2xECW)

64. Kane - 2 (1xWWE/1xECW)

[Hawk 34 0]

That list has to include ROH which is at the same level as the original ECW as well as being an title defended overseas. That would propel Samoa Joe and Punk to this multiple world title regin list.

[Carnival 0]

The original ECW title was a world title because they broke away from the NWA and had the current NWA World champion when they did so(Shane Douglas).

 

ROH has had nothing of that magnitude happen in their title history. Their only claim to a world title is it being defended overseas. I could fly to Europe and defend my make believe championship against a child and claim it to be a world title then.

[Black Lushus 0]

uh oh...not the "what is TRUELY a world title?" debate!

[Carnival 0]

I knew it was going to happen.

 

Before the NWA the "World Heavyweight Championship" was split a few different ways, one of them was the "Omaha World Title" that eventually became the AWA title. We should revive that Omaha title and fight for it Lushus.

[Black Lushus 0]

Definitely, let's get all the boys together and get it done...then we'll fly over to Japan, Mexico and England, swap the belts out a bunch of times with guys there and with each other and maybe WE can get on that list!

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Since when is Yokozuna a two time ECW champion?

[Carnival 0]

fixed

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Ahh the great World title debate.

 

For the sake of argument...i'll agree that if we're including the original ECW title...RoH should be counted as well. Hell...if Muraco and Snuka count from before Shane Douglas threw down the NWA title...and the current version is counting (which really...ugh) You might as well let everything in.

[Carnival 0]

I see your Muraco and Snuka argument and thought about excluding anything before the Douglas/NWA thing. And might yet. Which would take away Both reigns for Snuka and Muraco. And a reign a piece for Terry Funk, Sandman, Sabu and Shane Douglas.

 

And as for the current version, it was brought back and put on RVD while he was WWE champion, and he was referred to as the ECW World Champion. It's treated as a brands top title even if the brand is shit. And it's still an eligible title to cash in a money in the bank world title match for.

 

I stated before why I personally wouldn't include the ROH title.