Let's Talk About...Kevin Sullivan's run with the book in WCW i

[King Kamala 0]

Alright, I was afraid I would derail the Thunder thread in the 24/7 folder so I thought I'd take the discussion here. The first three months of WCW in early '00 produced the worst television in the company's history. IMHO, it's beyond argument. Yeah, both of Russo's reigns with the book in WCW were awful. But at least, they failed on a grand scale and it produced interesting television (notice the emphasis on interesting. Not good, interesting). We can all agree The Summer of '99 was also terrible but at least you had some good tag team action with Benoit and Saturn facing off against The Triad and some decent cruiserweight matches here and there on Thunder or Saturday Night. Early '00 had virtually nothing. Most of the roster (especially the younger guys like Booker T and Kidman) seemed to be almost depressed and kind of half assing it after The Radicals left for the WWF. Anyways instead of writing paragraph after paragraph, I'm just going to do the "Good", "The Bad, and "The Ugly" ala everybody's favorite WCW recap site DDT Digest

 

 

Good (Mind you good is an overstatement for most of these)

• Vampiro/ The Brothers In Paint. Vampiro is the one guy who really seemed to step it up during this time period. Before, he was mostly a lackey to second rate musicians with squared circle aspirations but he emerged as a solid upper mid-carder during this period. I also enjoyed his short-lived Brothers In Pain team with Sting. Yeah, you could tell WCW was kind of trying to ripoff The Brothers of Destruction but I thought it sort of worked and I've always been a fan of old mentor-new hot shot type tag teams. They should have slow burned the team's rise and fall but IIRC, Russo broke them up on his first show back.
• Team Package. Call me nuts but I kind of liked this combo. Luger and Flair went pretty well together. I may lose my smark card but I liked Luger during this period. It vaguely reminded me of The Narcissist and anything that ushers back memories of The Narcissist is good in my book.
• Three Count. It's funny reading recaps of shows back then now. A lot of people thought they were WrestleCrap worthy back then but I think time has proved them to be a really good undercard pretty boy heel stable.
• Los Fabulosos. El Dandy offering to excite Stacy Keibler's groin and the Power Rangers outfits they wore were and I suspect still are high comedy.
• WCW Saturday Night. I've heralded my love for latter Saturday Night on TSM many a times. But really at this point, WCW Saturday Night was its own separate entity with its own storylines, separated from the other shows.

The Bad

• Tank Abbott. 'Nuff said. The only time he was tolerable was when he was the muscle for Three Count and that was after the era we're talking about.
• The Artist Formerly Known as Prince Iaukea. Another attempt at making Prince Iaukea the next 2nd generation superstar. Yet again, no one cared. This gimmick was especially ridiculous since it was right around the exact same time that TAFKAPI showed up, Prince said you could call him by old name again.
• Booker T and a bloated ass Ahmed Johnson fight over the letter "T". Again 'nuff said. This feud only could have worked if Sesame Street had a promotion.
• Hulk Hogan. His red and yellow act was incredibly tired at this point. It was way too late for a good, All American babyface to work and a few years to soon for a nostalgia run. It didn't help that Hogan was paired up with Ric Flair. A feud that had been bungled and run into the ground many a times. Speaking of Hogan...
• YAPPIPI! YAPPIPI!
• The Wall. I like a good monster heel and they actually built him pretty well but he just flat out sucked.
• Jeff Jarrett and Sid's feud for the WCW World title. I can't think of a more forgettable World title feud than this one. I watched WCW on a weekly basis at this time and I still can't remember why this feud started. It seemed like Sid was about to feud with Kevin Nash (because THAT ONE set the world on fire the first time) and then all of a sudden, it was Sid Vs Jeff Jarrett. I think both guys can be main eventers given the right opponent but they just didn't mesh at all.
• The Harris Boys. These guys got runs in all of the Big Three (ECW, WWF, and WCW) and they sucked during all of them. One of my least favorite tag teams of all time. According to wikipedia, they now manage former American Idol contestant Bucky Covington. HUH?
• The KISS Demon. 'Nuff Said
• nWo 2000. Who better to carry on the legacy of the nWo than Jeff Jarrett, The Harris Brothers, a catatonic Scott Hall, and an even lazier than usual (and that's quite "the accomplishment) Kevin Nash? Awful awful stable.

The Ugly

• The Dog. Finlay's association with The Dog may have been even worse for his career than his current association with Hornswoggle. The Dog was just a stupid dumb shit gimmick. Wikipedia also tells me that The Dog was a last minute replacement for Sabu.

• Scott Steiner's return in March '00. Less ugly than outright bizarre. Steiner randomly shooting on Flair and saying that he'd rather be watching Stone Cold on RAW. Audibly yelling "FUCK YOU!" at Hogan during a match on Nitro. Incredibly entertaining but also incredibly stupid.

The Old Age Outlaws. What better way to help your company's reputation for pushing old, washed up wrestlers than creating a stable featuring Terry Funk, Arn Anderson, Paul Orndorff and Larry Zbysko to combat your top heel stable? This one may have been at the tail end of Russo's first run though.

 

What are you guyses thoughts on this era? I have a feeling this won't churn up as much discussion as The Russo topics have. Russo WCW was interesting bad, this was just depressing for the most part. I somehow doubt that we'll find an apologist for this era on here. Even the dwindling amount of hardcore WCW fans could admit these shows just flat out sucked. Seriously, watch SuperBrawl X or Uncensored 2000 sometime and try telling me that they are anything remotely good.

[King Kamala 0]

Let's refresh our memories on some of the suck, shall we?

 

Scott Steiner and Jeff Jarrett Vs Sid and Hulk Hogan (Nitro 3-20-00)

 

Big Poppa Pump shoots on Ric Flair

 

Tank Abbott Vs Big Al (SuperBrawl X)

 

Sting Vs The Total Package Lumberjack match (Uncensored 2000)

 

Hulk Hogan Vs The Wall (Nitro 3-27-00)

[Jebus 0]

It was Brothers in Paint, IIRC.

[King Cucaracha 0]

We actually got WCW over here around this sort of era, so I vaguely remember nWo 2000. When you think about how poorly the nWo revival went in the WWF, consider that was another two years on and in a promotion where it was fresh, it's probably no wonder an nWo revival after what had to be less than a year didn't work. Let alone that Jeff Jarrett seemed to be placed as the leader (and I'm not anti-Jarrett, he was just the wrong guy).

 

Seeing Three Count mentioned, does their run as Hardcore Champion, singular not plural, fall under Sullivan or Russo?

 

Infact, the WCW Hardcore Championship, period. What a worthless belt.

[Kardo 0]

After watching the doco about him and his role in WCW with Creative Control and Hogan's own power from his contract, talent leaving here there and everywhere he did pretty decently under the circumstances.

[bob_barron 0]

Tank Abbott v. Big Al is my 2000 MOTY

[SteakGrowsOnUecker 0]

Steiner's shoot on Flair is even better when you consider Austin was out with his neck injury at that time.

[King Kamala 0]

Seeing Three Count mentioned, does their run as Hardcore Champion, singular not plural, fall under Sullivan or Russo?

 

Infact, the WCW Hardcore Championship, period. What a worthless belt.

 

Three Count's title run with The WCW Hardcore title was during the tail end of Sullivan's run. And yes, The WCW Hardcore title was absolutely terrible. A top contender for Worst Title Ever. Sure, it got Norman Smiley on TV on a regular basis (I've always dug the guy, an underrated talent) but it also gave Brian Knobbs a singles push. There's no reason Brian Knobbs should have been getting anything resembling a push in '00.

 

And I don't want to place all the blame on Kevin Sullivan. Heck, I don't think I can even place the majority of the blame on him. I just couldn't think of a better title for the thread. Maybe "Let's Talk About...The First Three Months of WCW in '00". Anyways, whoever said he was given absolutely dire circumstances to work under is absolutely right. At the same time saying he did well under those circumstances is absurd because almost nothing went well during his run with the book in '00. And bookers have done better with worse situations.

 

I think it was one of those situations where almost everybody had some small share of the blame. But the most blame has to be put on the general apathy of the workers and writing staff. Everything just seemed tired during that period.

[Diamonddust 0]

Someone explain to me how Hornswaggle has hurt Finlay's career? Yeah, it might be cartoonish... but Finlay got a ton of screen time out of it. Comparing it with the crap he did with "The Dog" doesn't make a lot of sense.

[King Kamala 0]

Hurt his career may have been a bit of an overstatement. It's given him a ton of screentime and one of the biggest pushes he's had in The States and Finlay deserves it. Like I said in The NOTC roundtable, at this point in his career Finlay shouldn't be doing the superstiff brawls that put him on the map all time. At the same time, it has the same effect on his career that "The King" gimmick had on Harley Race and the yellow polka dots on Dusty Rhodes. Yeah, sure they made a lot of money. Perhaps the most money they've made in their careers but it's an odd and slightly embarrassing coda to a career. I have a feeling there'll be a whole generation of fans who will remember Finlay as Hornswoggle's big buddy rather than a kickass brawler.

[Diamonddust 0]

Hurt his career may have been a bit of an overstatement. It's given him a ton of screentime and one of the biggest pushes he's had in The States and Finlay deserves it. Like I said in The NOTC roundtable, at this point in his career Finlay shouldn't be doing the superstiff brawls that put him on the map all time. At the same time, it has the same effect on his career that "The King" gimmick had on Harley Race and the yellow polka dots on Dusty Rhodes. Yeah, sure they're a lot of money. Perhaps the most money they've made in their careers but it's an odd and slightly embarrassing coda to a career. I have a feeling there'll be a whole generation of fans who will remember Finlay as Hornswoggle's big buddy rather than a kickass brawler.

 

Fair enough, but I'll leave you with the line Dusty Rhodes gave about the polka dots during the most recent 24/7 Roundtable:

 

Someone asked him how he was able to do the polka dots at that point in his career, and he responded...

 

"$500,000 a year is how I did it baby."

[Dandy 0]

That is almost exactly what KKC is saying, Diamonddust.

[cabbageboy 0]

WCW in early 2000 was the worst crap in the history of the known universe. Know how I have ranted and raved on these threads about WCW in mid 1999 during the Hummer Angle? That stuff is at least NOTABLE, it at least did matter. And truth be told the West Texas Rednecks were pretty fun in retrospect. But early 2000 was like watching a promotion drag to its demise.

 

Sullivan was completely the wrong guy to replace Russo, given that several guys flat out left the company rather than work for him and most of the other younger guys hated him.

 

--Anyway as far as some other goofy things from this period, how about The Maestro? Seems like he was in WCW at this point and of course he was horrible. That goes without saying.

 

--The Dog was awesome. I mostly remember Knobs with him, not so much Finlay. I do remember Finlay training Knobs by making him run miles through the woods and all that crap.

 

--I can't really badmouth NWO 2000 that much because the faction never really got off the ground. Bret had his career ended in Jan. and he was the leader. So then you had Jarrett, Hall, Nash, etc. and JJ is the only one who gave a flying fuck.

 

--The thing I'm puzzled about is why Sullivan even bothered pushing Hogan. His red and yellow act was dead in the water by 2000, so why not elevate someone, ANYONE else? He mained against Flair in the Yappapi strap match but wasn't even on TV during that buildup since his contracted dates had been met or something. You're telling me Sullivan couldn't have started to push Booker as a major star instead of having him feud with Ahmed Johnson over his T?

 

To be honest I am drawing much more of a blank about this stuff, it's a bit like that Aug/Sept. 1999 period when things were going off the rails and Bischoff was fired. At least the Summer of 1999 was insanely awful and memorable, as was Russo's chaotic first run, as was Russo's even more insane 2nd run in 2000. But this stuff? It just sucked ass. No good matches, no notably hilarious and bad angles, terrible roster. It was about like watching latter day AWA shows. WCW in early 2000 can't be fully described in words....I can't do it justice as to how awful it was. You had to be there. But why would you want to be?

[King Kamala 0]

The Maestro was an odd case for certain. He was signed to WCW back in '98/early '99 as Gorgeous George III (He claims he was the original's Great Nephew) and sat on the shelf for months. Then they signed Mach's girlfriend, Gorgeous George in the Summer of '99 so they had to retool him to clear up any confusion and thus the Maestro was born. And the rest is...(non)history.

 

I think The Maestro actually first showed up either during the tail end of the lame duck run between Bischoff and Russo or during Russo's run. Nevertheless, he was around during the Sullivan era. I may be remembering this wrong but the weird thing about him was he would show up on Nitro and do his extravagant entrance and whatnot and the announcers would hype the shit out of him and then he wouldn't show up for a couple of weeks and they'd do the same thing. His appearances seemed really scattered. Maybe WCW couldn't afford to rent a grand piano every week at that point?

 

The Maestro was a character straight out of mid 90s WWF. Ooh, an evil symphony conductor! That's going to pack 'em in!

[King Cucaracha 0]

Man, I totally blanked on Bret being in nWo 2000.

 

I do remember Funk feuding with Nash around this point for... some sort of authority figure role, I think. I don't know, it seemed like every other month there was a match for official power back then. Funk took a bunch of Jacknifes off of places he probably shouldn't. That's about all I remember.

[cabbageboy 0]

The fucked up aspect of that Funk/Nash angle is that Funk was the commish for a while but they introduced him in North Carolina??? Everyone there simply assumed Flair would be the guy, but it was Funk and it didn't get over. Bear in mind they were in TEXAS the previous week and could have brought Funk out then to a big pop.

[BUTT 0]

They wanted Flair. He refused because he didn't want to be brought back just to job for Nash.

 

The funny thing is, unbeknownst to Funk or WCW, Terry was still under contract to WWF, as they had let his deal run over. WWF could have sued WCW over it, but they chose not to.

[Dobbs 3K 0]

Yeah, I remember the thing with Funk's contract. WWF didn't make a big deal out of it due to respect for Terry Funk and the fact that they weren't going to do anything more with him anyway.

 

I actually kind of thought the Maestro had some potential as a midcard level heel. He didn't seem as completely ridiculous as some of the character WCW had around that time.

[King Kamala 0]

I just hit the jackpot in terms of finding crappy WCW videos from this era.

 

The entirety of the episode of Nitro the night after Souled Out 2000. I might provide some running commentary for this tomorrow, anybody with me? Maybe we can tie it into the seemingly aborted "Kamala's Tape of The Month Club" idea I had a while back.

 

Anyways here it is

 

Part One

 

Part Two

 

Part Three

 

Part Four

 

Part Five

 

Part Six

[Jingus 0]

I'd be willing to so the Shitty Nitro Viewathon thing, depending on what time of day. Evening or night is better for me.

 

[*]Vampiro/ The Brothers In Paint.

They had an annoying tendency of sticking anyone who happened to wear facepaint in Vampiro's group. Sting, Great Muta, Insane Clown Posse, the Misfits, anyone.

 

[*]Hulk Hogan. His red and yellow act was incredibly tired at this point. It was way too late for a good, All American babyface to work and a few years to soon for a nostalgia run.

I understand why they did it, with Hogan being arguably the biggest wrestling star of all time. Problem is, WCW fans were used to seeing him as the villain. When he turned babyface in summer of 99 there was a decent nostalgia pop for him, but he was gone again two months later anyway. As his WWE appearances have shown, Hogan is great for a short-term spark but actively drives fans away if he keeps coming back long-term. His opponents didn't help; as noted the Flair feud had been done to death several times, and who the fuck would actually pay to see Hogan vs. Luger?

 

It seemed like Sid was about to feud with Kevin Nash (because THAT ONE set the world on fire the first time) and then all of a sudden, it was Sid Vs Jeff Jarrett.

Nash, guess what, got hurt. By slipping and falling. Seriously. Okay, it was in a puddle of ice in a parking lot at night after a house show, but still, he broke his leg by tripping and falling.

 

And let's not forget his AWESOME run as Commissioner! Like when he went completely insane and thought he was Commissioner Gordon, and actually spent television time pontificating on why Bruce Wayne and Batman were never seen together.

 

I actually kind of thought the Maestro had some potential as a midcard level heel.

Ah, so you are That Guy.

[King Kamala 0]

I didn't think The Maestro was all that bad. He was a guy that came along about twenty years too late. Though his reason for feuding with The Cat might have been one of the stupidest reasons for a feud this side of Booker T and Edge feuding over a shampoo commercial and Kane and Jericho feuding over spilt coffee. Actually, I don't think The Cat and The Maestro ever even had a match during that feud. I think they just cut a few promos on each other and the feud's "blowoff" was James Brown showing up and dancing with The Cat and The Maestro quietly sulking.

[cabbageboy 0]

Honestly I don't even remember now what kind of worker The Maestro even was. But since I don't remember it's probably a sign that he sucked. I just remember his gimmick really sucking considering it was 2000. He DID have Ryan Shamrock as his valet though, which counts for something.

[King Kamala 0]

and who the fuck would actually pay to see Hogan vs. Luger?

 

I did! For some reason, I ordered SuperBrawl X (not for that match in particular though) and it's probably the worst mistake I've ever made as a wrestling fan. Awful, awful show. You know a show's terrible when the best match involves David friggin Flair.

[cabbageboy 0]

I refused to pay to see that 2000 SuperBrawl PPV. I saw it at a sports bar instead and at least managed to have some sort of decent time. I tried it again with Uncensored 2000, but by that point the sports bar refused to carry WCW PPVs and was just showing March Madness instead, even though the games would have been over by the time the PPV started. I had a friend of mine with me, so we agreed to leave and get the PPV. So yes, I was one of that .10 or whatever that got Uncensored 2000.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

It seemed like Sid was about to feud with Kevin Nash (because THAT ONE set the world on fire the first time) and then all of a sudden, it was Sid Vs Jeff Jarrett.

Nash, guess what, got hurt. By slipping and falling. Seriously. Okay, it was in a puddle of ice in a parking lot at night after a house show, but still, he broke his leg by tripping and falling.

 

That's pretty unbelievable. Not that Nash slipped and fell, but that he was at a house show.

[FroGG_NeaL 0]

I went to a WCW house show in... I think 97, that had Nash, Hall and Syxx all show up AND have their matches.

[King Kamala 0]

Jingus' dream match

[Jingus 0]

That's pretty unbelievable. Not that Nash slipped and fell, but that he was at a house show.

Ironically, it happened the very next night after I saw him wrestle at a house show. Considering how that match went, I'd say the broken leg was nothing more than a case of quick karma.

[Richard 0]

Hogan was actually beginning a feud with Sid that probably would have led to him winning the world title again.

[cabbageboy 0]

You know I couldn't resist and have actually watched some of this show. Oddly enough this show is nowhere near as bad as I remembered. Kidman/Psychosis wasn't too bad, and with Crowbar doing most of the work the match with him and David vs. 3 Count was decent.