Living Dangerously 1999

[Guest]

Okay, I've got no questions this time. Just a thread to discuss the show. Haven't watched it yet, but looking forward to watching the opener as well as the Taz/Sabu main.

[cabbageboy 0]

RVD/Lynn is still a great match but it still is one of the dumbest booked matches of all time. I know Heyman was spoofing the Holyfield/Lewis fight with the whole "ref gives the belt to Lynn on a time limit draw" idea, but it's still idiotic.

 

Probably one of my favorite ECW shows though.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Solid show, and the main event gets some flack, but it's still a solid ***1/2 affair. A lot of stiff fucking hits involved, which makes it better. RVD/Lynn here is much better than the rematch they'd have in 2 months, but if you've seen one? You've seen all of them. I still think the best was Hardcore Heaven 2k, because Lynn was much higher on the card by then and thus allowed to actually seem like a much bigger threat than he'd ever been before to RVD.

 

Tajiri/Crazy is good, but one of the weakest of their on/off feud for the next year and a half or so, which is alright because it's pretty much the start of it. New Jack/Mustafa is 100% rubbish, because the only thing to keep it remotely interesting was Jack's music being played all throughout, and it's guarantee that it'd replaced by stock music for this (considering I somehow doubt Dr. Dre and Ice Cube would just let WWE do it for little-to-no cash), but the Dudley Boyz were on top of their heel game here, and the Sid/Spike interaction is...entertaining, at the least.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

I was hoping for something a bit more exciting out of Guido vs. Antifaz Del Morte, though I have no idea who the latter even is. It's odd seeing Tajiri in ECW in his pre-Buzzsaw gear, I was always familiar with him being in the black leather pants and what not. It's also funny seeing Corino so thin.

[cabbageboy 0]

Yeah Tajiri was semi repackaged in the Summer of 1999 when he turned heel and joined Corino, then feuded with Taz a bit.

 

The RVD/Lynn series has more distinct matches than given credit for. The LD match is the one with the goofy time limit draw, the HH99 match has Lynn damn near having his brains beaten out, and the HH2000 match was marred by outside interference and the Anton heel turn. The GAC 01 (last ECW PPV) match has Lynn as the heel in it.

 

The best RVD/Lynn match though? I think it was the Sept. TNN match where Lynn had broken ribs and kept fighting.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

The best RVD/Lynn match is obviously the one that aired for 5 minutes on Heat in 2001 once Lynn's offense was edited out.

[Jingus 0]

Har har. Although their encounters did sometimes look similar, I really liked the RVD/Lynn series. They did incorporate a bit more psychology than some give them credit for; both guys tend to counter more of the other's offense and spots as time went on. I didn't know that the Holyfield deal was the inspiration for that dumb "ref awards the title" thing, it makes a teeny bit more sense now.

 

Taz/Sabu is always a fun match, same with Tajiri/Crazy, although I wouldn't say either offering here was their best encounter. Corino's PPV debut was a good start for him, even though he got murderized by Balls, he still got his character over. New Jack/Mustafa... it's a New Jack match, what do you expect? Although needing the security guys to carry them back to ringside was just sad, if they're in that bad shape just stop the fuckin' match. I don't remember much of the Dudleys wrestling, mostly just remember Bubba Ray cursing a lot on the mike. And Guido/Antifaz... allegedly happened on this show, even though I don't remember a damn thing about it.

 

The Dreamer/Douglas vs. Impact Players match is... not so good. I'd understand if it was a standard tag match that turned into a big brawl for the second half, but... to do it backwards? They do crazy no-dq Tornado Stylez brawling all over the building for the first half, but then patiently sit in their corner and obey tag wrestling rules about who's the legal man and whatnot afterwards? Ugh.

 

People can bitch about the ECW crowd being a bunch of smarks who always shit over everything which wasn't a chairshot or moonsault, but just remember: when old stars showed up, whether it was Dusty or Hall or like here SID, they still popped like drunken monkeys.

[heyguesswhatidid 0]

My Uncle went to this show, I went to his house and watched in on PPV because at the time he had a hot box at the time. I liked this show a lot.

[cabbageboy 0]

Yeah in fact I recall going to my friend's house to watch this PPV. I probably still have the tape of it somewhere. This show was the week before WM and when I saw WM the next week I couldn't help but think that it paled in comparison to the action on this PPV.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

Yeah in fact I recall going to my friend's house to watch this PPV. I probably still have the tape of it somewhere. This show was the week before WM and when I saw WM the next week I couldn't help but think that it paled in comparison to the action on this PPV.

 

Don't you talk about Bart Gunn like that.

[franchise632 0]

This was the first ECW PPV show that I purchased on PPV. I had to go to my aunt's house because she had the new fangled digital cable. It was a good time and even before rewatching this show today I can still remember the Balls chair shot to Corino and the "Oh my God" on Balls's face. It was awesome!

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Honestly, I struggled to make it through the show. I have trouble watching a lot of ECW's long matches, they just seem spotty with little build until they decide it's time for a finish. New Jack/Mustafa was pure crap.

 

The Dreamer/Douglas vs. Impact Players match is... not so good. I'd understand if it was a standard tag match that turned into a big brawl for the second half, but... to do it backwards? They do crazy no-dq Tornado Stylez brawling all over the building for the first half, but then patiently sit in their corner and obey tag wrestling rules about who's the legal man and whatnot afterwards? Ugh.

 

Agreed. Obeying tag rules in a promotion that prides itself on no DQs is really laziness.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

My first regular exposure to ECW was through TNN. Even though the promotion's glory days had already passed by then, the whole thing seemed so fresh to me. The raw style, the technical wrestling aspect, and the habit of breaking the more conventional rules of wrestling.

 

But time and perhaps maturity has made most of ECW's stuff a chore to watch. I don't care much for resthold wrestling, but this spotfest junk seems so...mundane now. Lynn and RVD is an exciting match, but the majority of the show only reinforced my belief that ECW was incredibly overrated. Say what you will about the WWF or even WCW, but there's something to be said about some structure. ECW PPVs are unbearable to sit through at times because the whole thing often feels like it's done on the fly. "Oh, we've got a match going on. What's after? We don't know? Let's send some random guys out to fight for a few minutes then."

 

I'd argue the back-and-forth sequence that seems to pop up in almost every ECW match involving two technical wrestlers creates a more choreographed feeling than anything the other two promotions were doing at the time. They're impressive, but when they're chronically used like they were in ECW, it's difficult to suspend disbelief.

 

And I concluded long ago that I hate Sabu. The guy gave his body hell. Good for him. But he was an awful wrestler and did slight variations on a handful of big spots throughout his career. And he did them poorly. It's a nice visual to see him soaring through the air, but the point is lost when he constantly only grazes his target.

 

I don't know. ECW certainly had its strong points and WWE and WCW owed credit to the company for several of the ideas they utilized. But a company can't thrive and flourish with the format ECW peddled. Some of it's admirable, but as a whole, it smacks of bush league.

[bob_barron 0]

Yea, I've never been able to get into ECW either. I just don't like it.

 

RVD v. Lynn just comes off as too choreographed

[cabbageboy 0]

Bob, to some degree I suppose the RVD/Lynn match is a bit choreographed but it's certainly unlike anything else you'll see in North America circa 1999. I've said it before in various ECW threads, but my favorite RVD/Lynn match is from Sept. 1999 on TNN, with Lynn having bandaged ribs and teasing not being able to continue, etc. That one is much more about passion, crowd heat, and drama and not so much about intricate spots.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

I was going to say this in the ECW TV thread but since it's relevant to the conversation here, I have a hard time getting into "classics" like the RVD / Sabu match on right now for the same reason as bob. They're fun to watch and all and maybe I'm just to much of a WWE mark (because that's what I grew up), but by the numbers formula just seems more "natural" then doing SPOTS~! or MOVES~! then resting and/or giving yourself a pat on the back by pausing for applause then doing more MOVES~! (can you tell I've been reading F4W archives?). These matches have no psychology at all. When you see a series of counters leading to a big move in a WWE match, it means a lot and the crowd usually goes banana.

 

Then again, this is coming from the guy that gave high praise to the Sabu / Scorpio match that aired a few months ago (and al reminded me was on a DVD I owned) that basically suffers the same problems, but I really liked it.

[cabbageboy 0]

Bear in mind that was Rob Van Dam when he was first starting out in ECW and I don't think he knew quite how to work yet in that environment. It seemed mostly like a crazy Sabu match with guys just killing each other until someone can't get up. You know the match Styles hypes for the next arena show (Matter of Respect)? That RVD/Sabu match actually has some psychology to it (!) as RVD targets Sabu's neck.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Would that be the Stretcher Match, the Respect match, or just a singles? Because the Stretcher Match is a thing of spotfest beauty, man.

 

In defense of Sabu:

The entire gimmick was that he never quit, and so long as he could get to his feet he would fight you. His sloppy style fit his entire gimmick, which is why I dig it. It's the same way that RVD's overly flashy "I'll do a cartwheel AND a spin before just hitting you with a fucking crossbody or a legdrop" style of ringwork fit the character of an arrogant prick, which is why I dig that. If Sabu was meant to be the most animalistic, brutal, caution-to-the-wind wrestler to ever exist (which is what ECW promoted him as), then would it make sense for him to wrestle more like Ricky Steamboat with a couple of highspots and mostly matwork? No, of course it wouldn't. It makes sense that he'd continue the attack for as long as he physically could.

[Jingus 0]

maybe I'm just to much of a WWE mark (because that's what I grew up), but by the numbers formula just seems more "natural" then doing SPOTS~! or MOVES~! then resting and/or giving yourself a pat on the back by pausing for applause then doing more MOVES~!

To be fair, it's not like the WWF/E has always been a bastion of sound psychology. Like, check out the first Rock/Jericho match for the WCW belt back in 2001. That was twenty minutes of nonstop action, but afterwards it all blended together in my head and I had a hard time remembering any one individual spot from the entire match. It was basically "Jericho hits Rock with a bunch of moves, crowd cheers, Rock makes a comeback and hits Jericho with a bunch of moves, crowd cheers more, wash rinse repeat".

 

The entire gimmick was that he never quit, and so long as he could get to his feet he would fight you. His sloppy style fit his entire gimmick, which is why I dig it. It's the same way that RVD's overly flashy "I'll do a cartwheel AND a spin before just hitting you with a fucking crossbody or a legdrop" style of ringwork fit the character of an arrogant prick, which is why I dig that. If Sabu was meant to be the most animalistic, brutal, caution-to-the-wind wrestler to ever exist (which is what ECW promoted him as), then would it make sense for him to wrestle more like Ricky Steamboat with a couple of highspots and mostly matwork? No, of course it wouldn't. It makes sense that he'd continue the attack for as long as he physically could.

That's remarkably similar to what I've thought for a while now. Yes, Sabu's aerial maneuvers lacked precision and grace: so what? His character was that he was supposed to be a fuckin' madman who didn't give a shit about his own safety and took risks that nobody else would. RVD did too many flashy movez~!: so what? His character was the cocky showoff who thought he was the best wrestler on earth because of his flashy moves. It made sense for those guys to wrestle in the style they did.

 

Hell, that's more of an in-ring, wrestling-based character than most WWE guys have now. Like, in storyline terms, what exactly does Triple H do in his matches that makes him unbeatable. Yeah he's teh cereal assasin and teh gheyme and all that, but why does he win, why does he wrestle in the manner and the style that he does? The old ECW actually told those types of stories in the ring; pretty much every guy had a very specific individual style. Sandman: crazy drunk brawler who doesn't give a fuck. Taz: judo champion. Tommy Dreamer: takes insane beatings and innovates offense involving foreign objects. Raven: prefers to be lazy whenever possible, but will step up his game if he's forced to. Jerry Lynn: always makes the mistake of trying to "prove himself" instead of just winning, often tries to match the style of whoever he's wrestling. Mikey Whipwreck: talented kid, but not all there. Mike Awesome: the world's biggest cruiserweight. Spike Dudley: mostly a joke, but has one killer move that he can hit outta nowhere to beat anyone. New Jack: homicidal street thug who don't know a wristlock from a wristwatch, but will just straight beat you to death. So forth and so on.

 

Now tell me: along similar lines, what's John Cena's style? Yeah he has freaky retard strength and DEFIES THE ODDS~!, but why does this man wrestle the way he does? Answer: because that's the way the WWE wants all their top guys to wrestle. And it's lots more boring, at least it is to me.

[cabbageboy 0]

Jingus, you hit the nail on the head with that post. One of my biggest problems with Cena's incessant push is that there really is no reason as to why he wins all these matches, other than he's simply booked to do so. There's nothing really in his skills or moveset. HHH doesn't face quite that problem as a heel, when he can adapt ruthless tactics (run ins, sledgehammer, etc.) to justfiy winning. But in terms of being cerebral in the ring, I dunno, I never really found him to be exactly Bret Hart in terms of targeting weaknesses, focusing on a body part, etc.

 

This is something that critics of RVD and Sabu don't quite understand. Not every match has to be some psychologically sound snoozer with leg work and weardown holds. Frankly if you ask me which style of match I'd prefer to watch between I'd probably go with the crazed spotfest.

 

Anyway, the Matter of Respect match isn't the Stretcher match, that one happened a bit later. Matter of Respect is another crazed spotfest brawl, with a finish involving RVD giving Sabu a fisherman's buster from the top rope, targeting the bad neck. The ECW Arena crowd was in utter shock. This would in turn set up the even more bizarre rematch with them fighting in a broken ring (Hardcore Heaven 96) and STILL trying crazed highspots, with both guys being so beaten up they both have to be carried out on stretchers. That would of course set up the Stretcher Match blowoff.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

The Stretcher Match blowoff is the best in the series that I've seen, IMO. It builds off of RVD targeting Sabu's neck at A Matter of Respect, and adds in the broken ring match with both men being taken out on stretchers for a short while before Sabu makes his escape to get the win.

 

Wow...a series of 4 matches, with the finishes each having something to do with an earlier match? Isn't...isn't that...PSYCHOLOGY?!

[cabbageboy 0]

Haha, yeah. The RVD/Lynn series has a certain amount of psychology as well, it's just that quite a few people don't pick up on it or think about it. Stuff like moves working one match, then not working in the next, etc. Psychology can be more than just "I'll work this guy's leg or something."

[Ripper 0]

Most ECW matches were like that. THe psychology could be seen through the series of matches, not through just one match.

 

Like someone said before, the Lynn/RVD matches would have spots where in match one, Lynn would hit a tornado DDT. In the second match, RVD would catch him diong that and turn it into suplex...in the match after that, Lynn would coutner RVD's counter from the last match.

 

If you are watching the individual match, you would just see a spot. If you watched the series its "OHHH he learned from last time!!!".

 

Don't get me wrong, most ECW stuff was crap, but the good stuff was really good when you looked at the whole picture (and alot of times when you looked at the single match).

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

I think the perfect example of that theory (psychology throughout matches as opposed to just one match) is the ever-going Tajiri/Crazy/Guido series. By the end of ECW, it was all mixed up in tag warfare, but it resulted in much more hardcore brawling than pure wrestling, mostly because they knew each other inside and out, so frustration began setting in and they would begin pulling out ALL of the stops.