Lower the U.S. drinking age?

[Guest WhackingCockDick]

I kind of see where C-Bacon is coming from, but I can't get behind his everything-for-everyone policy. Maybe I'd be okay with 16-year-olds going down to their local gas station or corner store to buy some beer if I knew the concept of drinking in moderation had been instilled in them, but it all comes back to our culture being so irreparably broken that there's nothing we can do to fix it but keep the status quo and hope for the best, which is unfortunate. My sister's friends' respective moms thought they were being progressive by allowing their daughters to drink at home (and playing bartender when friends were over; I find this not the least bit creepy), but missed the part about making sure that you have to approach this responsibly, and thus ended up raising a pair of falling-down drunks.

[EricMM 0]

I'm actually a stronger advocate of de-criminalizing pot than I am of lowering the drinking age...

 

Can we go there?

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

Again?

 

The bottom line is, teenagers in this country will get fucked up whether it's legal or not. Do we as taxpayers and parents want to dedicate our time and money to stopping this?

 

Social and economic class doesn't matter. Academic and extracurricular involvement doesn't matter. Whether it's a dropout getting smashed with the guys after work or the class valedictorian drinking a bunch of apple pucker and getting caught on cell phone video blowing two guys on the basketball team.

 

 

[At Home 0]

I'm actually a stronger advocate of de-criminalizing pot than I am of lowering the drinking age...

 

Can we go there?

 

 

[At Home 0]

The bottom line is, teenagers in this country will get fucked up whether it's legal or not. Do we as taxpayers and parents want to dedicate our time and money to stopping this?

 

Maybe you don't want to, but most parents see a responsibility to, looking at the number of alcohol-related teenage deaths in the country.

[Black Lushus 0]

As a parent, yes, I'll devote all the time in the world to make sure my kids don't turn in to alcoholics.

[Guest Vitamin X]

I'd rather devote all the time in the world to being a good parent than having the cops and other arms of the law babysit my kids, too.

[At Home 0]

So you'd just trust your kids not to drunk drive? The cops are there for a reason.

[Guest Vitamin X]

But DUI is still a crime, regardless of your age. I think in California, you get caught once, your license is suspended, twice, it's revoked.

 

Besides, the point here is about "underage" (but still a legal adult) drinking. Is enforcing the underage drinking law on top of a DUI really going to deter someone from doing that even more? You're fucked either way. If a kid knows his ass from a hole in the ground, and he would from having good parents, then there shouldn't be a problem.

[At Home 0]

That would be nice in a perfect world, but we know that the reality is far from that.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Well then, what's the difference? Let the kids drink, I say. Better to learn from your mistakes at a younger age then to become a binge drinker as a college graduate (or just over 21) when you have more responsibilities to worry about.

[Black Lushus 0]

VX, I say this not to insult, please don't take it that way, but I hope you don't become a parent...I'm not going to sit here and get on a soap box for you guys without kids, but what you're saying would be insane for any parent to say.

[EricMM 0]

But Black, I hate to beat a dead horse here, but kids in Europe basically drink their entire post natal lives.

 

The wine is watered down somewhat at first, but by the time they're 16, they can buy a bottle of wine if they want, beer, etc. And their society doesn't collapse.

 

Its an American problem, the binge drinking. And I think that the stigma at least partially causes it.

[Black Lushus 0]

This aint Europe, it's been said numerous times already...to say "oh well, if you get killed in a car crash thanks to your drunk driving, I guess you'll never do THAT again!" is plain insane.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Hey BL at my age and still being in school and balancing two jobs to make ends meet, trust me, the last thing I want is kids. With that said, most people I know drank while they were underage, and they turned out fine. They never, if rarely drove drunk, and we partied quite enough.

 

And no, this isn't Europe. People drink FAR more there than they do here. Ask anyone from the UK, Ireland, Germany, France, Spain, hell the fucking Czechs lead the world in beer consumption.

 

I'm not saying that I'm going to let my children become problem alcoholics. But, point is, I would be there to support and raise them in the best way possible. The point of this whole argument is whether the law should be responsible for legal adults between the ages of 18-21 for partaking in the heinous act of alcohol consumption. Not DUI, not any of these other things, but just drinking. Anything, at all.

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

As a parent, yes, I'll devote all the time in the world to make sure my kids don't turn in to alcoholics.

 

Would you, as a parent, be angry if your son/daughter at age 19 was drunk at a college keg party?

[Guest Tzar Lysergic]

I, for the record, don't give a shit what age alcohol is legal because I'm 26.

[Black Lushus 0]

As a parent, yes, I'll devote all the time in the world to make sure my kids don't turn in to alcoholics.

 

Would you, as a parent, be angry if your son/daughter at age 19 was drunk at a college keg party?

 

Yes...when you become a parent, you become a very hypocritical person because lord knows I did my share of underage drinking...it's hard to explain, but you just get that feeling that kicks in that says you don't want your child doing the same stupid shit you did. Is there anything I can do about it if my kids did that? Of course not, but you can bet they're going to catch hell from me, whether they want to hear it or not.

[EricMM 0]

But was it wrong to drink as a kid or binge drink, ever?

[At Home 0]

I'm not saying that I'm going to let my children become problem alcoholics. But, point is, I would be there to support and raise them in the best way possible. The point of this whole argument is whether the law should be responsible for legal adults between the ages of 18-21 for partaking in the heinous act of alcohol consumption. Not DUI, not any of these other things, but just drinking. Anything, at all.

 

I'm not a morning person, but I'm still getting your signals crossed here, VX. What do you mean by "anything, at all."?

[Black Lushus 0]

But was it wrong to drink as a kid or binge drink, ever?

 

I don't understand what you're going for here, but yes.

[Black Lushus 0]

I'm not saying that I'm going to let my children become problem alcoholics. But, point is, I would be there to support and raise them in the best way possible. The point of this whole argument is whether the law should be responsible for legal adults between the ages of 18-21 for partaking in the heinous act of alcohol consumption. Not DUI, not any of these other things, but just drinking. Anything, at all.

 

I'm not a morning person, but I'm still getting your signals crossed here, VX. What do you mean by "anything, at all."?

 

I think what he's saying is, take out all of the consequences that can be involved with heavy drinking...just look at JUST the drinking. Is it wrong for an 18 year old to get smashed at all? Like, an 18 year old sitting at home, downs a case of beer and then doesn't do anything else but stay home and pass out. Is that wrong? Should it be illegal?

 

Maybe that's what Eric was asking me?

 

I don't think that's a fair arguement to make because for every one kid that doesn't do anything after getting drunk, there are 5 out there causing auto accidents, date raping, getting physically violent with someone, dying from alcohol poisoning, etc. Or at least they're in situations where the potential exists, whether it actually happens or not.

 

Granted there are PLENTY of 21+ people doing all of that, I'm pretty sure you could pinpoint it happening more frequently with those in the 18 to 20 range.

[At Home 0]

You can't really look at the fact without the consequences. Otherwise, that's just being short-sighted.

 

And if a 18 year old kid wants to get drunk in his room, that's fine with me, but that's another one of those in a perfect world scenarios. Most young kids are social drunks, and rarely, if ever, drink alone at home. That's when bad decisions get made, and that's why the law is in place.

[Black Lushus 0]

You can't really look at the fact without the consequences. Otherwise, that's just being short-sighted.

 

And if a 18 year old kid wants to get drunk in his room, that's fine with me, but that's another one of those in a perfect world scenarios. Most young kids are social drunks, and rarely, if ever, drink alone at home. That's when bad decisions get made, and that's why the law is in place.

 

I agree with you 100%

 

An 18 year old kid is more apt to making an irrational drunk decision than a 25 year old man is, period.

[EricMM 0]

Frankly thats the bullshit of an older man.

 

Thats like saying a 16 year old new driver isn't as good a driver as a 25 year old new driver.

 

It's experience.

 

I was asking, Black, if you could register the difference between teens (or anyone) drinking beer and abusing alcohol.

 

There is a difference.

[Black Lushus 0]

What's bullshit? Are you saying you don't make smarter decisions at 25 than you do at 18?

 

and yes, Eric, I can tell the difference with drinking and abuse...is there something I posted that is making you think otherwise?

[Maztinho 0]

All I know is that I was a drastically different person when it came to decision making at 21 than when I was 18. At 18 I tried to drive home from college in a blizzard just to hang out with some high school friends, I hit some black ice and slid off the road. Nothing severe, but looking back on it that was a really retarded choice.

 

I don't drink, but I could imagine someone who does drink with a similar disposition to mine would be more apt to do something life altering stupid at 18 as opposed to 21 when they've matured somewhat. Dealing with some coworkers who drank underage and didn't do anything while drunk, now that they have matured they drink less and wish they hadn't partied so often or hard at 18-19 years of age.

 

 

[EricMM 0]

Life experience makes you wiser, not years.

 

I know *plenty* of 24 year olds who are dumber than some 18 year olds.

 

The only reason people are wiser when they're older is because they've learned. Why not start learning earlier.

 

I was asking because I think there's a difference between the two, and one is bad and the other is not, regardless of what your age is.

[naiwf 0]

Life experience makes you wiser, not years.

 

I know *plenty* of 24 year olds who are dumber than some 18 year olds.

 

The only reason people are wiser when they're older is because they've learned. Why not start learning earlier.

 

I was asking because I think there's a difference between the two, and one is bad and the other is not, regardless of what your age is.

 

How is lowering the age limit to 18 going to prevent underage drinking though? If you do that, then 13-17 year olds will continue the American tradition of drinking until they puke in the name of being cool because they're doing something they're not supposed to. HS kids tend to make horrible decisions not necessarily because they want to, but because they feel they need to. As someone who has counciled about a hundred kids in that age range, their biggest fear is being ostracized because they chose not to do the things everyone else was doing. Good parenting and will power really don't mean much in the face of peer pressure, and lowering the legal age isn't going to stop 14 and 15 year olds from doing stupid shit. As long as there are a couple of idiots in the mix, almost everyone they associate with will continue to make bad decisions and they really aren't concerned about the legality of things when they're trying to fit in.

[Guest Vitamin X]

I'm not saying that I'm going to let my children become problem alcoholics. But, point is, I would be there to support and raise them in the best way possible. The point of this whole argument is whether the law should be responsible for legal adults between the ages of 18-21 for partaking in the heinous act of alcohol consumption. Not DUI, not any of these other things, but just drinking. Anything, at all.

 

I'm not a morning person, but I'm still getting your signals crossed here, VX. What do you mean by "anything, at all."?

 

Sorry about that, that was a pretty bad sentence fragment there. I think I was talking on the phone when I posted that. Anyways, what I meant was that the legality that is being disputed here is over the act of drinking, not the possible consequences. I know you said you can't look at it without looking at the consequences, but hear me out. The reality of it all is that the consequences you mentioned are illegal- DUI, being physically violent, rape, all those things. I am not sure what, or even if there are any hard numbers out there that objectively prove 18-21 year olds are more likely to commit these crimes when inebriated than someone who is of age.

 

The point here is more about enforcing responsible drinking at an earlier age, rather than not drinking at all. I have a bartending license (I get discounts and heavy pours at bars for it) and in my classes I learned that something like over 70-80% of all US adults do drink, so chances are likely that it's fairly inevitable they'll start eventually. You could even make an argument that the whole binge drinking phenomenon is caused partially by the comparatively high legal age to drink in this country. It's not just Europe that's less restrictive either, it's everywhere. We have the highest drinking age in the world, tied with Pakistan, Fiji, and Kiribati, and only one year ahead of Japan who does it at 20. (Here's the wiki link. Excuse the fact it's wikipedia, but all of those are sourced and cited, so I figure it's reliable enough.)

 

Ultimately, at the very least, I feel that it should be left up to the states to decide, and not have that whole Federal Highway Administration thing hanging over their heads.