The 2008 MLB Offseason Thread

[naiwf 0]

Why did CC get an extra $20 million over their own initial offer then? and what about A-Rod getting $300 million against no other offers? They routinely overpay, which is why their payroll is so inflated.

[Brett Favre 0]

Why did CC get an extra $20 million over their own initial offer then? and what about A-Rod getting $300 million against no other offers? They routinely overpay, which is why their payroll is so inflated.

 

Because the Yankees didn't play a bidding game with other teams. They took them out to begin with by making the market offer (so anything over that would be overpaying). If the Yankees offered 105, then some other team offered 110 and so on, it allows other teams to get into the bidding. Sabathia is making as much as Santana, and that's where his market lies.

[Shooter in a Wedding Dress 0]

The Yankees are bad for baseball because their existence virtually ensures that a small market team can never keep a player in their prime unless they make a deal within their first year or two like Longoria or Braun did. It's somewhat asinine that the Yankees will lowball their own players until they hit FA status and then if they want to keep them will offer them far more than the market would offer since that's the advantage they have over every team. For example Wang is getting peanuts (relatively speaking) after being a consistent winner for the team, but a guy like Burnett's going to make three times as much as him because he's a FA that the Yankees coveted. I love the idiotic argument that I've been hearing all week on WFAN that because the Yankees sellout three road games a year for certain teams that they're a net positive to that team's bottom line when they steal their top players year after year.

 

This is how the MLB works. If you want to blame MLB structure for problems go right ahead but don't put that blame on the Yankees for simply being the most successful in that structure. If it was bad for the MLB the MLB wouldn't be letting it happen. Just remember the luxury tax is only there to drive the point home like a cartoon mallet, the Yankees aren't hurting baseball. And when the fucking NATIONALS are willing to offer MORE money than the Yankees, this becomes almost not worth responding to.

 

Sure it's bad, because no one seems to care when the Yankees and Sox are not involved. And that imbalance is a very bad thing for the game.

 

Yet attendance keeps going up, they both sell the most merchandise, and MLB does all it can to showcase the rivalry. You can't count on any one factor when it comes to playoff ratings other than how big of a market and fanbase the teams playing eachother have, not how good the series will be, not whatever story they can pull out of it and make headlines and highlight reels to, and since I doubt MLB likes trying to ruin itself intentionally I don't think they'd agree with you.

 

I doubt I would feel better. One, the best players are mercenaries that I didn't see come through the farm system (which is the great fun of being a fan of this Phillies club). Two, they have not addressed the core problems that have plagued the team the last few years. Namely, the lack of team defense, the lack of flexibility and the lack of farm system depth. And third, you can't get a damn worthwhile ticket to Yankee Stadium unless you're connected to someone.

 

Oh please, if you can't get excited about your team aquiring three guys with that much talent just stop watching the game. I agree completely about the defense and Tex is a big help. I'd love to hear why our starting pitching was of no concern though. If you were the Yankee's what would you of done with this money coming off the books? Team defense and the farm system are two things that will always be as good as the coaches on the team are. I don't see how either are relevant when talking about signing free agents over the winter.

 

The third part, I feel horrible for you, I've gone to two Yankee games without even having tickets first and had an awesome beer filled night that didn't cost me more than 100 bucks. So if that's your experience, well, that just sucks.

 

I don't know where this comes from. I enjoy discussing the merits of all 30 teams, and the Yankees seem to be the subject of choice at the moments. If anyone wants to talk about the relative merits of the Brewers, Dodgers or Rangers, I'd love to.

 

But those teams aren't ruining baseball, so everyone doesn't want to read about them or talk about them. Weird how that works. Although I have to ask, as a pure baseball fan, you'd rather talk about the Rangers than the Yankees? Honest question.

[Brett Favre 0]

Team defense was addressed with Teixeira, but you also got two strikeout pitchers to prevent balls going into play. With Teixeira at first, a superior outfielder in Swisher replaces Nady in right so they have addressed defense. It's not like they're going to move Jeter from short. Everyone else can hold their own defensively. I'm sure they're looking for a centerfielder.

 

And their farm system remains intact. There's a reason why they preferred to go after Sabathia instead of trading prospects for Santana. They have strong pitching in the minors, and Austin Jackson is a top offensive prospect.

[naiwf 0]

Why did CC get an extra $20 million over their own initial offer then? and what about A-Rod getting $300 million against no other offers? They routinely overpay, which is why their payroll is so inflated.

 

Because the Yankees didn't play a bidding game with other teams. They took them out to begin with by making the market offer (so anything over that would be overpaying). If the Yankees offered 105, then some other team offered 110 and so on, it allows other teams to get into the bidding. Sabathia is making as much as Santana, and that's where his market lies.

 

You don't understand the concept of overpaying or market value then. If I'm selling a box of pens and someone offers me $1,000 for them to make sure no else can bid on them, that doesn't mean the pens have a market value of $1,000. The pens are "worth" $1,000 to the buyer, but the market value is a couple of bucks because that's what a normal person ends up paying for pens elsewhere.

 

Less specifically, "market value is a concept distinct from market price, which is “the price at which one can transact” (read: what the Yankees pay), while market value is “the true underlying value” (read: the price a guy would get in a Yankees free system) according to theoretical standards. The concept is most commonly invoked in inefficient markets or disequilibrium situations where prevailing market prices are not reflective of true underlying market value"

[Shooter in a Wedding Dress 0]

You're talking about products with the pen analogy, not entertainers or performers. Players are just performers, and the market value is what people are willing to pay them to perform..

[Brett Favre 0]

Regarding your box of pens, lets say they are worth 1,000 (they've been worth 1,000 for a while). If someone offers 500, just because that's the most they can offer (the Brewers), that doesn't mean they are worth 500 dollars. The Yankees essentially took out the Angels, Dodgers, and Giants out of the bidding by offering 140 million. I wasn't talking about the Brewers. If you go into a bidding war with those three teams, around the 115-120 range, teams that reside in California where CC is from, it would have not been a smart move for the Yankees. Just because Sabathia got low balled, doesn't mean the Yankees overpaid.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

But those teams aren't ruining baseball, so everyone doesn't want to read about them or talk about them. Weird how that works. Although I have to ask, as a pure baseball fan, you'd rather talk about the Rangers than the Yankees? Honest question.

 

Absolutely. You've got three catching prospects competing for a spot. Chris Davis and his potential. Josh Hamilton. Elvis Andrus on the way up, can he succeed with his relative lack of power? Will Nolan Ryan's approach work on the minor league pitchers? Ian Kinsler is a nice player. There's a lot of interesting things going on there.

 

I'm in the minority though. I'm the type of person who just can't get interested in a Manny Ramirez saga.

[Shooter in a Wedding Dress 0]

So pretty much you hold no interest in what players who've already established a career will do...? I'll give you seeing if Hamilton can keep it up but other than that come on. What about Joba, what about CC under the pressure of NY, how does Posada come back crom a career year followed by an injury plagued year, how much longer can Mo be Mo, what kind of year will A-rod have, will Jeter ever settle down and get married!?!?

 

Ok the last point was ridiculous but you see what I'm getting at.

[naiwf 0]

No, the market price is what people are willing to pay. The Yankees set that number for any free agent they want. In the case of CC they offered him $140 million and then when no other higher bids came in they inexplicably drove it up to $161 million. His value didn't rise by $21 million. The price did. When no one else was bidding. It's the same thing the Rangers did with A-Rod many moons ago. The "market" was somewhere around $15-18 million per and yet they threw $252 million over 10 years his way when no one else was in the mix.

 

To simplify things, if someone (admittedly brain dead) offered Aaron Heilman $15 million per, that doesn't mean he's worth that/his value is that high. It just means that he'll take that offer because he's rational and likes money. Now if a lot of idiots start paying the Aaron Heilmans of the world $15 million per, then that becomes the market value for mediocre pitchers who like to give up crushing homers in critical spots. It would also drive up the market price (and subsequently value) for pitchers better than Heilman as well because if a scrub like that can get $15 million, then someone with talent should make more.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

So pretty much you hold no interest in what players who've already established a career will do...? I'll give you seeing if Hamilton can keep it up but other than that come on. What about Joba, what about CC under the pressure of NY, how does Posada come back crom a career year followed by an injury plagued year, how much longer can Mo be Mo, what kind of year will A-rod have, will Jeter ever settle down and get married!?!?

 

Ok the last point was ridiculous but you see what I'm getting at.

I don't see how those stories are any more interesting really. I have a decent idea what all those players will do, and that is to continue being good/great players. The interesting story with the Yankees is how they fare against Boston and Tampa Bay in the A.L. East pennant race. The one guy on the Yankees who truly interests me is Dan Giese.

[Shooter in a Wedding Dress 0]

Well than I just don't smoke the same pinetar. I'm assuming you enjoy minor league baseball much more right? Can we talk about the Ducks? There's a future for us yet!

[Brett Favre 0]

In terms of value, considering what Santana got last year, anything less than 21 million would have been underpaying. The Yankees added a year because he's a year younger than Santana. They didn't overpay (according to what pitchers at that level, like Santana have gotten). Whether other teams could afford Sabathia or not is another story. The teams that could didn't need him (Red Sox, Mets) were just cheap (Dodgers), or had some combo. The reason they overshot the market (or whatever it was when it started) was to take away teams that may seem like a threat (Dodgers, Giants). But the start of bidding isn't what the price ends up being.

[naiwf 0]

They didn't overpay (according to what pitchers at that level, like Santana have gotten). Whether other teams could afford Sabathia or not is another story. The teams that could didn't need him (Red Sox, Mets) were just cheap (Dodgers), or had some combo.

 

That's the definition of overpaying. I don't see why Yankees fans can't accept this. It's not illegal within the structure of MLB. I just don't get why throwing $20 million on top of the top offer to a player is considered "normal" when no other team in any other sport does it. For a week I've been hearing that the Yankees didn't overpay for any of their three players they signed this year when the biggest deal anyone else has pulled down this offseason was for $37 million over 3 years.

[Brett Favre 0]

Adding 20 million was just adding a year. It's not like he signed for 6 years and 161 million.

 

Also, AJ Burnett and Teixeira were going to get about the same or more from the Braves and Nationals.

[Shooter in a Wedding Dress 0]

Dude, they're ball-players, not pens, and the "market value" is set by whoever chooses to employ them, for whatever salary they choose to employ them. It's not that hard to understand.

[Bored 0]

I'm starting to think a separate thread for the Teixeira signing and the fallout should have been created.

 

In non-Yankees Are Destroying America news, Randy Johnson has agreed to one-year deal with the Giants. Was hoping he'd sign with the A's but he wanted to stay in the N.L.

[Brett Favre 0]

Cain, Lincecum, Sanchez, and Johnson is a pretty nice front four.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Cain, Lincecum, Sanchez, and Johnson is a pretty nice front four.

Definately. Get Barry Zito to eat innings, and then all the Giants need to do is get an offense together.

[Jericholic82 0]

You know what's sad? As a diehard Yankee fan, I watched pretty much every game last season, and it is my opinion that they missed the playoffs because of a lack of run production and especially the non-official "clutch-hitting" stat. They finished with 89 wins even with pitching woes, and were involved in more close games than blowouts. In fact I could think of at least 10 losses that could have been wins if they could only hit better

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they addressed the rotation ,but the offense needs to be better this year. I hope Tex will be able to protect Alex in the lineup, plus Cano needs to step up at the plate with Abreu gone.

The Tex signing feels like Giambi redux like we've hit the reset button back to 02. Hope all that money is worth it. I ponder if last year had turned out better, would the Steinbrenners be throwing money around like this. It seems a rash reaction to failure.

Not to say I'm not excited about 09, I'm just sayin (TM Shane Helms)

 

[garfieldsnose 0]

Judging by some of the posts on this page, it seems like if nobody is talking about the Yankees, there's something horribly wrong! If you're a baseball purist, you care about each team equally, and since al is probably one of the only ones I know, God forbid if he is intrigued by other teams other than the Yankees? That's pretty stupid to jump on him for that, since to him the Yankees are not bigger than baseball like casual fans like to believe.

 

The season hasn't even started yet. The Yankees aren't guaranteed to even get in the playoffs because the Rays will probably still be good, and the Red Sox as well. Three additional players doesn't mean the two other teams that beat you out for the division are weaker. I'll agree I was annoyed at the Yankees signing these three players at first, but after thinking about it, why should they be favorites? The Mets were favorites last season after acquiring Johan Santana. Now, they'll probably be favorites again this year because they got two good relievers. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. Seems like euphoria for the Yanks is solely because they think they just won a World Series and they just have to wait until early November to really celebrate.

[Brett Favre 0]

That's what you believe. I haven't declared anyone champions. However, you can't say they haven't improved the team. That's the best anyone can do now.

[geniusMoment 0]

Ugh, from Corey Patterson to Willy Taveras, I really need to move or pick another sport. Maybe cricket?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Ugh, from Corey Patterson to Willy Taveras, I really need to move or pick another sport. Maybe cricket?

Taveras' career OBP is 40 points higher than Patterson's. Whereas Patterson hacks and is generally a BAD hitter, Taveras works within his limits and contributes at his best.

[geniusMoment 0]

I guess I'm just concerned over his .308 OBP last year in Coors.

 

And everyone is saying his BABIP was extremely lucky in 2007 resulting in his .370 OBP.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I guess I'm just concerned over his .308 OBP last year in Coors.

Taveras was actually better on the road. Don't let the Coors effect throw you on this type, Taveras isn't exactly aiming for the outfield fences.

[Guest Vitamin X]

Yeah Corey Patterson is definitely no Willy Taveras. Taveras is a huge loss for the Rockies, as he was MLB's leading stolen bases guy and he can get on base. Plays decent (not great) defense too.

 

Love watching how Colorado is blowing up the team here, though. Who do they have coming up to replace all the outfielders? Hawpe is the only guy they've left there with any sort of major league experience. Unless they're counting on Scott fucking Podsednik. Garret Atkins might be following Matt Holliday out of town soon too, although I like having an infield of Tulo, Stewart, Barmes, and (sigh) Helton. The bullpen (as usual) and the outfield are what worries me a bit.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The Rockies' top prospect is a center fielder, Dexter Fowler. He hit .335 in Tulsa as a 22 year old, and he should not be far from an MLB contributor. Add Carlos Gonzalez in left, and the Rockies aren't far from a good outfield.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

I read the only reason Teixeira didnt go to Boston was because his wife didn't want to live there. Thats kinda funny actually.

 

 

[treble 0]

So, I'm trying to plan a trip to Pittsburgh and Cincinnati to see games in early May. Seeing as how it says it's over an 11 hour drive from Cincy to here, I'm trying to find a place in between where I could stop and catch a game on the third day and cut the drive down. Of course, every minor or major league team I can think of in that whole area that's not going to put me in the wrong direction is on the road that day (May 7). Columbus, Akron, Cleveland, Erie, and even Buffalo and Rochester (which is a pretty long drive, anyway) in one direction. Even if I want to go another route, both Toledo and Detroit aren't at home that day, either.