The Niggardly King 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 thems jokes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dobbs 3K 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Yeah, just not a good one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricMM 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 The Palestinians could make this all go away by going all MLK/Ghandi on Israel. It would seriously work, I think. If Hamas does not stop shooting rockets, though, all Israel can really do is keep fighting until they can't. The main goal of a govt is to PROTECT ITS CITIZENS. If this is an unequal response, how equal SHOULD it be? One Palestinian death for every Israeli death? That would exactly work against a group that uses suicide bombing, for crying out loud. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Turbo Lion 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 Yeah, just not a good one. Or a relevant one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Ol' Smitty 0 Report post Posted January 6, 2009 If this is an unequal response, how equal SHOULD it be? One Palestinian death for every Israeli death? Has anyone in this thread said anything about proportionality or "an equal response"? We've said what Israel is doing won't work and, beyond that, will actively make things worse. Read this. And this. And this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gary Floyd 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 In these troubling times, only one man can be a war correspondent Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pappajacks 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Really, there are over 20 Arab countries in the world, and it's like some can't concede that the Jews should have just one homeland of their own. All Arabs must be the same to you, right? What does 20 other Arab nations have to do with Palestinians? Palestinians are distinct than Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, etc. The Palestinian people don't even have a country. Like a previous poster mentioned, it's not the fact that Israel has a country that bothers them, it's the location. I believe Uganda was one option that the UN considered in the 1940s to establish the Jewish state. I bet you Israel would live in peace today if the country ended up there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pappajacks 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 By the way, it was Israel that practically invented terrorism. Read about Menachem Begin and the Jewish uprising against the British. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted January 8, 2009 By the way, it was Israel that practically invented terrorism. KKK IRA Try harder. You could try harder than me if you want, because I really didn't try at all! But yes, I know that the Irgun were terrorists. You don't need to lie about it though. That all said, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It is entirely subjective, and for that matter, the word terrorist is basically useless. That said, Hamas is just the same as the Irgun. However, they are far less effective, and the world will no longer sit idly by and tolerate those who hide amongst civilians and indiscriminately target civilians as they did in years before our lifetimes. Unless those horrible things happen to poor Africans. Anyway... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Ol' Smitty 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Israel’s assault on Gaza has really created an almost unbelievable no-lose situation for al-Qaeda. If Hamas “wins”, then al-Qaeda gets to share in the benefits of the political losses incurred by its Western and Arab enemies (Zawahiri mentions Mubarak and the Saudis in this tape, but not the Jordanians) and can try to take advantage of the political upheavals which could follow. If Hamas “loses”, al-Qaeda still wins. It will shed no tears at seeing one of its bitterest and most dangerous rivals take a beating at Israel’s hands or losing control of a government that they have consistently decried as illegitimate and misguided. http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/node/14962 Also re: terrorism, there is a difference between terrorists and insurgents, as terrorists deliberately target civilians while insurgents target soldiers. Yes, I know Dresden & Hiroshima would be considered acts of terror under that definition. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Ol' Smitty 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 To clarify, terrorism is a tactic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dobbs 3K 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Really, there are over 20 Arab countries in the world, and it's like some can't concede that the Jews should have just one homeland of their own. All Arabs must be the same to you, right? What does 20 other Arab nations have to do with Palestinians? Palestinians are distinct than Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, etc. The Palestinian people don't even have a country. Like a previous poster mentioned, it's not the fact that Israel has a country that bothers them, it's the location. I believe Uganda was one option that the UN considered in the 1940s to establish the Jewish state. I bet you Israel would live in peace today if the country ended up there. Have you ever actually read about that plan? It wasn't an option in the '40s...it was discussed long before that. It was completely unrealistic, and never got into serious talks. Also, where would all the poor Ugandan people have gone to? People today would be complaining about the evil Jews killing black people instead of Palestinians. Also, the actual racial differences between Palestinians and other Arabs/Jordanians/Egyptians/etc are extremely minute. Pretending they are a different race is disingenuous. Actually, I think the only reason the other Arab nations want Palestinians to have their own country is because they don't want them in their own. Palestinians are, to my understanding, better educated then people in other Arab countries. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Czecherbear Report post Posted January 8, 2009 All Arabs must be the same to you, right? What does 20 other Arab nations have to do with Palestinians? Palestinians are distinct than Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, etc. The Palestinian people don't even have a country. "The Palestinian people" is a little disingenuous: really, anyone inhabiting the region that's been called Palestine since antiquity could be (and has been) called a Palestinian, irrespective of religion or ethnicity, and it wouldn't be inaccurate. The Palestinian Arabs are just that, Arabs, the same way there are Jordanian Arabs and Syrian Arabs and Lebanese Arabs. Sure, there may be cultural nuances between the two because living in Beirut is different than living in Gaza City the same way (pick two American cities), but ethnically, they're Arabs, whether Muslim, Christian, or Druze. As for having a country, the best argument you can make is that they're displaced Jordanians. The Nazis also wanted to move the Jews to Madagascar. Wouldn't have thought of that. And who can forget Birobidzhan? "Here, take the shittiest corner of the shittiest country." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Ol' Smitty 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 I think we should've just let all the Jews come to the US. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PUT THAT DICK IN MY MOUTH! 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Or given them part of Germany. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Czecherbear Report post Posted January 8, 2009 I think we should've just let all the Jews come to the US. I think so too (despite the logistical difficulties of taking on so many people so quickly to say nothing of the inevitable antisemitic backlash that would follow), but I still think there should be a Jewish homeland. That said, there are some little things about Israel that I always found kind of odd, like trying to reconstruct Hebrew as an everyday language instead of just using good old Yiddish, or the weird parenting theories at the kibbutzim, and all that. I guess it's just the kind of stuff you do when you're granted a fresh start of sorts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PUT THAT DICK IN MY MOUTH! 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Let's be honest, it's not like there was ever any real doubt about where the Jewish homeland was going to be established. Zionism had been well-entrenched in certain quarters of the European ruling elite for decades prior to 1948 (cf. Balfour Declaration, etc). The more cynical among us may even argue that the Holocaust was simply used as a convenient pretext for justifying something that was eventually going to happen anyway. But that's just antisemitic hogwash. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dobbs 3K 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Well, there was already a sizable Jewish population in Palestine prior to 1948 anyway, so it's not like they just completely imported a new population after the UN declared the Jewish homeland. Heard a story Israel was now getting rocket fire from the north, so they're now fighting a two front war again. Maybe it's time to end the failed Palestinian "nation" experiment, and force all of them to emigrate to other countries. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChris 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 (Pretty graphic, I couldn't even finish the video. Don't watch unless you want to see Hamas accidentally kill Palestinian kids) I have to wonder just how accidental that is. Hamas doesn't care who gets killed in this conflict. Worse, they seem to want more of their own people dead because they believe it will further their cause. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Ol' Smitty 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Maybe it's time to end the failed Palestinian "nation" experiment, and force all of them to emigrate to other countries. Yeah, this wouldn't work, considering neither the Palestinians, Jordanians, or Egyptians like the idea. I'm assuming you would give the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt, right? Or maybe I'm overestimating you and you would you just Milosevic both areas? Anyway, that neoconservative loser who was too extreme for the Bush Administration, John Bolton, offered up a similar idea in an op-ed recently. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricMM 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 He said emigrate, IE kick them out of Gaza Strip and the West Bank... That would go over so well...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruiserKC 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 When Israel was created by the UN in 1948, the Palestinian Arabs were given a homeland to them as their own country. They didn't want Israel to exist, and that is what this war for the last 60 years has been about. They were given their own country and they wanted all of the land. As for the idea of moving the Palestinians to Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc...those countries don't want the Palestinians either except to basically be their warriors by proxy. If the other Arab nations really, truly, deeply gave a shit about the Palestinians they would have helped them out a long time ago. I understand people don't want war and they feel for the Palestinian people. I get that...but what people ignore is the fact that Hamas wants to wipe Israel off the map. If you gave them everything they wanted, it wouldn't be enough. Arafat was given 98% of what he wanted for a Palestinian state in 2000, and he still rejected it. If they moved to Alaska, they would declare jihad and send rockets into Fairbanks and Anchorage if given the chance. Radical Islam wants to take over Israel and the world, and it doesn't matter what they do to achieve their goal. For those who say that ragtag terrorist groups can't spread Sharia law all over the world...once upon a time they said Hitler wouldn't amount to much and look what it took to stop him. Until the Palestinians reject Hamas (which BTW they elected to run their land) and their terrorist ways, I would be in favor of them NEVER receiving their state. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted January 8, 2009 I am still in favor of a two-state solution. Probably always will be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dobbs 3K 0 Report post Posted January 8, 2009 Well, I still don't get how a Palestinian nation would actually exist...it would be a small non-contiguous region...assuming it's just the West Bank and Gaza Strip. How would they actually be expected to develop infrastructure and develop as a country? Just seems like a pipe dream at this point, unless you were going to carve another "strip" of land out from the other surrounding countries to connect the two areas, or something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BruiserKC 0 Report post Posted January 9, 2009 A proposed Palestinian state would be the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and a portion or all of Jerusalem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dobbs 3K 0 Report post Posted January 9, 2009 A proposed Palestinian state would be the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and a portion or all of Jerusalem. That still leaves two unconnected masses separated by Israeli territory. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Ol' Smitty 0 Report post Posted January 9, 2009 Beats nothin' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dobbs 3K 0 Report post Posted January 9, 2009 But realistically, would that solution end the attacks on Israel, or would Hamas and others just say "OK, we have this, now let's take the rest?" I think it's being disingenuous to pretend the proposed Palestinian state is what the majority of the Palestinians actually want. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted January 9, 2009 No, that wouldn't satisfy Hamas. It would take at LEAST right of return for Hamas to recognize Israel, and there's no way in hell Israel is allowing for that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJerk 0 Report post Posted January 9, 2009 Wasn't one of the reasons the Palestinians didn't immigrate to another country in the first place because nobody would take them? For all the bitching about how Palestinians are treated by the Israelis, and how this is a rallying cry for radical Islam, aren't most Muslims in Iran and pre-war Iraq treated worse by their fellow Muslims? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
