WrestleMania Roundtable Part Two: Out With The Old, In With The New

[King Kamala 0]

It's time for Part Two of our six part series of roundtables leading up to WrestleMania 25. This week, we cover WrestleMania VI through X. Before we get started, let's introduce our panel of experts.

 

 

909: Winner of a Lou Ferrigno lookalike contest

King Kamala Classic: Three more payments and he'll be able to upgrade to Silver King Kamala Classic

MilleniumMan 831: Representing MilleniumMen 1 through 1162

Bobby Rocks Rocks Rocks Till He Drops Drops Drops Barron

Smues: Has anybody heard of this guy? I haven't.

 

 

WrestleMania VI

909: I really liked it. WM 6 was a good example of showing that every match doesn't have to mean something, and that it also doesn't have to be "good." If the card is properly placed, it works. That worked. Best match on the show was obviously Hogan/Warrior. Best moment was the Andre retirement thing after Demos/CC. I could've done without the Savage mixed tag, but it served a purpose.

King Kamala Classic: Anyways, I've always felt this show was slightly overrated. It's very well paced, got a great atmosphere. Sort of like WrestleMania III but unlike that show it doesn't have a great match to really anchor it. Some great moments (Hogan-Warrior, Andre's final major WWF match) but as a whole, the wrestling is kind of forgettable. Best match of the night I'd say is Jake-DiBiase (which could have been great if it went 5-10 minutes longer and had a finish but was good anyways) and I'd agree with King that the best moment was Andre decking The Brain.

MillenniumMan831: Andre's face turn was definitely an unexpected perk of WMVI. Savage and Sherri's entrance was actually one of my favorite moments from the event. Roberts' prematch promo was chilling and Warrior/Hogan was FUCKING EPIC!!! Seeing Perfect have his perfect television record go down was sad (even has a 7 year old mark). Fun show but not a must-watch one

Bob Barron: This is a fun show. Does there need to be 300 matches? No, probably not. But as everyone else said, Andre getting his farewell is great, and Hogan v. Warrior is a classic. I don't remember too much of this show, but Mary Tyler Moore sure didn't seem thrilled to be interviewed. Also DDP's Wrestlemania debut

Smues: To tell the truth I've always found WM6 to be overrated as a whole. People tend to have warm feelings from the main event and let that color the rest of the show, which really wasn't that great. It's hard for me to even remember most of the undercard. Really the only match I'd call good outside of the main event was the Million Dollar belt match, maybe the rockers tag match. It's truly a show where the main event and the crowd saved it. Stick most any other main event in there and you have people calling it one of the worst WM's they've seen, I think. And not much on the show really mattered outside of the main event, and maybe the tag title match. I still to this day don't get the point of the Roddy Piper half blackface thing. And the match itself was dull and ended in a DQ so it was really worthless. All that said, the main event was epic, and lived up to the hype. Hogan doing a clean job to anybody at that point in time was a huge deal, and for two guys not known for bringing the goods in the ring they certainly did deliver. I also loved the atmosphere at Skydome. I guess with the main event included I wouldn't rank this as a 'bad' Wrestlemania, but it's not one I'm likely to pop into the DVD player when I'm bored.

King Kamala Classic: I feel pretty much the same...it's a half decent Mania but I don't think it'd be one I'd watch on a regular basis.

Bob Barron: 5-7 are all the same in the sense that they just try to put everyone on the roster

King Kamala Classic: and man...they really blew Piper-Bad News Brown. That could have been a decent, throwaway midcard brawl but man that match sucked, doesn't help that it was between two guys that absolutely hate jobbing

Smues: The only reason I even remember Piper-BNB is because of the half black interview.

909: Did the NAACP ever come down on Piper for that? The Anti-Defamation League?

Smues: You would think somebody did, but I don't recall it happening. Found it less offensive and more retarded, but I'm white.

MillenniumMan831: It's Piper, he's done worse

King Kamala Classic: it didn't seem offensive or mean spirited...just kind of dumb. I think WrestleMania 6 may have been the moment Piper jumped the shark. Not to say he didn't have great moments afterwards but he was never quite the same.

 

 

WrestleMania VII

King Kamala Classic Sounds sort of unrelated but speaking of jump the shark...I was reading WrestleCrap's entry on the stupid WrestleMania VII instant replay debate segment and somewhere RD mentioned off hand that we can all agree that VII is one of the worst WrestleManias ever. That was the moment when that site jumped the shark. I wouldn't call WrestleMania VII one of the great WrestleManias of all time but it's one of the pretty damn good ones. Granted, I'm biased since it's the first one I remember watching via the magic of VHS. It's kind of like a better version of WrestleMania V and VI, unnecessarily trying to jam everybody on the roster but there are more good matches than those shows. Hart Foundation-The Nasty Boys, The Rockers- Faces of Fear, Savage-Warrior...all good to great stuff. Heck, Hogan-Slaughter is pretty underrated in terms of Hogan matches. Probably the last good Slaughter match certainly

909: That one's really good. Warrior/Savage is absolutely fantastic. So was Hogan vs. Slaughter, even though that angle was really shitty. Looking back objectively, it is a great WrestleMania. I've got no problem saying it

MillenniumMan831: Yeah, I never really felt this WrestleMania. Probably because the main event angle was so weak. Though as a kid, I did enjoy Roberts/Martel (what can I say) and of course Warrior/Savage was so great. Something about a longtime heel getting forgiveness from the audience was so righteous back then. Harts losing the titles was a buzz kill as was poor Santana losing AGAIN.

Bob Barron: Wrestlemania VII has way too many matches like the middle WMs, but it's a fun show. Warrior v. Savage is one of the most epic matches they've done, Hogan v. Slaughter is fine, and nothing on the show is too horrible, aside from the Japs v. Demolition match that has never made any sense.

Smues: That anyone could call WM7 one of the worst boggles my mind. I'll never understand the hate for WMVII. As it was I'd call it a very good Wrestlemania, just short of being one of the best. And it's one of my favorites, probably my most watched below WM17. Give it pretty much ANYTHING ELSE as a main event and it probably is on the great Wrestlemanias list. Whereas the WM6 main event saved a crappy show, a crappy main event couldn't kill a great show. In terms of work rate yeah this isn't anything special, but it still delivers with the opening tag match and the retirement match. And in terms of entertainment there really isn't any part of the card that makes me want to skip to the next match. And something people never seem to mention is the use of celebrities on this one. Most of the time the Wrestlemania celebrities don't add anything, but I really enjoyed the backstage skits with Trebek and Regis. They still make me laugh. As for the main event, it sucks. There's no way around it, it sucks, and was stupid booking that this was the match in the first place. Hogan/Warrior 2 would have been better or any other match for that matter. On the upside, at least it's a crowd pleasing finish as the American beats the evil Iraqi for the title, and sends the crowd home happy. Overall it's just a really enjoyable show that's always worth a watch.

Bob Barron: People just hate the Iraq angle so much that they write off the whole show

Smues: Yeah, and it's a shame

King Kamala Classic: it was a bad angle, but I would go as far as to say the match wasn't even all that terrible.

Smues: because yeah that angle and match sucked, but the rest of the show was so fun. And they at least sent the crowd home happy with it.

MillenniumMan831: Main event was alright but it was just so damn predictable

King Kamala Classic: hot crowd too...I think it was almost served better by the smaller than usual arena

909: One thing I've never understood is how Mania didn't come back to LA until the 21st one

Smues Oh yes, this was the 'bomb threat' show wasn't it.

909: The two Anaheim Mania's don't count

Bob Barron: Isn't Anaheim the LA area though?

King Kamala Classic: figured the WWF was counting those as LA

Smues: Vince was probably bitter he couldn't sell whatever venue he was originally going to do WM7 in. It's still funny to watch WM6 and see the ad with Vince screaming about how 100,000 people or whatever the number is will fill the Coliseum for WM7.

King Kamala Classic: I fondly remember the promos they stuck on WWF tapes leading up to VII with wrestlers on their way to the Coliseum for WrestleMania VII. The Bushwhackers are going to Bushwhacker walk their way to WrestleMania. I distinctly remember Dusty Rhodes hopping on the end of a garbage truck in one of those as well. Am I crazy or did these exist? Amusingly enough, none of those guys were at VII.

Bob Barron: Heenan making excuses for people crying is hilarious. I met Alex Trebeck and kept bothering him about WM VII while speaking to him in the form of a question

Smues: That reminds me that this was the first WM with Heenan on the stick. That probably helped my love of the show. You get one match with Duggan, and then they ditch him for Heenan awesomeness.

 

WrestleMania VIII

 

King Kamala Classic Pretty much the Best Mania ever up to this point, this was the last Mania with a ton of filler but it seems like its reduced compared to the previous three. Lots of great stuff here. Heenan and Monsoon on the mic. Hart-Piper, Savage-Flair, Warrior making his return, Taker beating the shit out of Jake the Snake. Again, just a really well paced Mania. I don't know what I think of the look though...I haven't seen the show in a few years (should bust out my VHS during spring break) but IIRC, it seems a bit too bright. Still a bit too much filler but the best Mania to this point.

909: This is my favorite WrestleMania. Yes, there's lots of filler, but it's placed well. Flair-Savage is just...amazing, and Bret-Piper is underrated in my view. Plus, Owen won. Big thumbs up to that one. Even Sid-Hogan is great in its own little way. That ending.

MillenniumMan831: I actually think the junk is kept to a minimum. Sure, there's the 8-man and the 1 minute Owen/Skinner match but there was a lot of gold in this card. Nothing that hasn't been mentioned but just so much rewatchable stuff here (Snake passing the torch, Piper/Hart, Savage/Flair, Warrior's return, Luger's interview, Heenan/Monsoon after the Flair loss, etc.) Plus, it clocked in around 2:45 which makes it much easier to sit through

Bob Barron: I love this show. Yes, it's a two match show, but the two matches are some of the best of the decade. Piper's one clean job makes him putting over Bret mean that much more, and Savage-Flair is just 20 minutes of great storytelling the commentary on the show is tremendous, and probably the best in WM history Also, what's with those Indians in Tatanka's match? I also like how the first three matches have HBK, Taker and Bret going over stars of the 80s

Smues: Agreed on the too bright thing. The first thing I think of when I think about WMVIII is how bright it was. I didn't think it detracted from the show at all, it was just very noticeable. Like WMVII this is a great show with a shit main event. This show is just loaded with memorable matches and angles from top to bottom. And while the main event is a load of shit, it's still enjoyable in its own way. The crowd reaction to the return of the Warrior is something to behold. Plus Sid kicks out of the leg drop thanks to Papa Shango being late on the run-in, and that always makes me laugh. But I really wish Flair/Savage had been the main, because it's just a tremendous match and angle. Another Savage WM match that's an instant classic and booked perfectly.

.Bret Hart/Piper is also great and one of the best Piper matches you'll ever see, including a clean job from Piper, something you never see. It doesn't hurt that it told a great story. Overall it's just a great show and it's a shame Flair didn't stick around for another Wrestlemania until 18.

Bob Barron: I love Piper holding up the bell and the crowd spazzing out and Heenan going: WHAT THE HELL USE THE BELL

909: but anyway, that Piper Bret interview was the best thing on the whole show

Smues: I just wish Hogan/Sid wasn't the main. Yeah the Warrior run-in was a great surprise, but not the best way to end the show

Bob Barron: Perfect breaking up the three on the elbow is such a dick move. It pisses me off today watching it

MillenniumMan831: I thought Monsoon was going to have a heart attack when Perfect was 3/4 in the ring

Smues: The only bad thing about the Flair/Savage match I can say is they didn't deliver on the Liz nudes Flair with the great blade job too. If Flairs blond hair turns red it's a sign of a great match.

King Kamala Classic I hate to speak ill of the dead but I see no need why the WWF had to bring in Ray Combs to ring announce at two PPVs. Again, finding something to complain about...not easy with VIII

Smues You know I forgot about the ray Combs segment. I'll admit...it makes me laugh. I liked it. And that tag match was really short so it was inoffensive.

King Kamala Classic I admit the heels flipping out at his lame jokes is funny.

Smues: Not as short as the Owen match though. A squash so high on the card was kind of odd.

King Kamala Classic I think the show was compressed for time and Owen-Skinner was meant to be am bit longer. hence also why they cut Bulldog-Berzerker. Though you think if they had to cut one match, Owen-Skinner would have been it.

909: Bulldog was in a big time sucking shit phase.

King Kamala Classic: Bulldog-Berzerker was way higher...maybe they couldn't figure out a way to cut it down. On the old Coliseum tape, they apologize at the end for it not being on there.

Bob Barron: a Bulldog fan, I accept their apology

King Kamala Classic the first of three Manias in a row where they run over time and they cancel a match

909: Hate to say that Bulldog was so bad from the time he came back up until the Bret match at SS, but it's true

Smues: Hmm, I have the coliseum tape back at my parents’ house, but I don't remember that. I do remember the tape for XII listing the geriatric match, yet it not being there. Bastards

 

 

WrestleMania IX

 

King Kamala Classic: yeah...boy...even as a mark, this show was a chore to sit through. It's about as hard to find something to compliment this show as it was to find something to complain about VIII. Will say this had a great, great atmosphere. One of the Top 5 Mania venues in terms of look. Steiners-Headshrinkers was sort of fun and Tatanka-HBK was OK and Heenan on the mic is always a good time but everything else....yeah. Bad, bad show. Weird that they sometimes follow up the best Manias with the worst (this and IV immediately spring to mind)

909: I hate this show so much. Quite literally, I cannot think of anything positive to say about it. Just a complete waste. Parts of Doink-Crush make me laugh a little, I guess. Mega Maniacs vs. Money Inc. is just so terrible, so horrendous, so time consuming. Just, ugh.

MillenniumMan831: Yeah, not a dazzling WM by any means, but let’s see what was good about it . . . Shrinkers/Steiners was badass, Doink's illusion ruled, Razor bumping around for Backlund was fun, the Narcissistettes were HOT! . . . Oooo boy that will conclude the fun stuff about it. Everything else was crapola! Yokozuna found a way to cool off my WWF fandom for a year

Bob Barron: Not much can be said about this one. It's just so bad. Steiners v. Shrinkers is fine, and ummm Bobby Heenan rode on a camel. Plus it's Jim Ross' debut. So does that count for something? Nothing much to say here, this show is just a three hour train wreck. Hogan winning the belt when looking as thin as a cruiserweight is funny

Smues: First the good: Caesar's Palace was a great place for this show. I really loved the look of this show, and it's a shame it was so god awful of an actual in ring show. Umm, oh and the opening match was decent. And Undertaker had a vulture with him, there was that too! Now the bad: The best match was the opener. Not a good thing. The matches on this card blow. I'd blame the wrestlers, but even on paper this doesn't look like a good show. Then there's the booking. I don't even know where to start. The two Doink angle, who thought that, was a good idea? Team up Hogan and Beefcake for the tag titles, and let the match go on forever (I have no idea how long it really was, but it feels like its 20+ minutes) and then end that nightmare in a DQ? The entire main event clusterfuck? What? This show is so bad it's hard to even pick what the worst part was. Part of me wants to go with the main event. I mean, Bret Hart loses, just so Hogan can beat Yokozuna in a 30 second non match? Yes you have to send the fans home happy, but that should have involved Yoko not winning in the first place. But you can't talk about the worst of WM9 without mentioning Undertaker vs. Giant Gonzalez. A match that still haunts my nightmares. The main event stuff sucked, but at least it was somewhat exciting. This match was just bad on so many levels, and I wouldn't hesitate to give it a vote for worst match ever by a major fed. I'd rather watch Undertaker and Giant Gonzalez eat dinner then watch them have this match. It's just soooooooo bad. I can say without even thinking about it that Gonzalez is the worst worker I've ever seen, and Undertaker is NOT the guy you put in there to get a good match out of him. Pre-psycho murdering Chris Benoit would not be able to get a watchable match out of this guy. And if it wasn't bad enough, the booking was awful too. A chloroform soaked rag? Fuck you. If I never watch this PPV again it'll be too soon.

909 unfortunately I have it on tape, and have watched it at least four times

MillenniumMan831: Imagine a Bret victory followed by a Hart/Hogan faceoff to end WrestleMania . . . would have been 100 times better than what we got

King Kamala Classic when the show's highlights are the venue and Bobby Heenan riding on a camel backwards, you know it's pretty terrible.

909: the last time was to review it for my blog. It'll be staying the last time

Bob Barron: I watched it once while being up for 35 hours not cool.

King Kamala Classic Nerdy fantasy booking question; what would you have booked for this show?

Smues: the Undertaker's vulture vs. Randy Savage would have been better than what we got. Ideally? Hogan vs. Bret, with Hogan leaving the WWF after to make movies

Bob Barron: Double main of Bret/Savage and Hogan/Yoko

King Kamala Classic: I don't see why Savage wasn't on the card. I would have at least done him and Perfect Vs Razor and The Narcissist

Smues: Savage was at least entertaining on the mic. I remember at some point he says something about how "they're hanging from the rafters...well the Coliseum doesn't have rafters but it has columns, and they're hanging from the columns!

909: this would be one of very few cases where the summer slam card is undoubtedly better than that year's Mania card

Bob Barron: It's always weird seeing people defend IX, I mean look how much we're reaching to say nice thing about it

Smues: Anyone who defends WM IX either A. it was their first PPV they saw and have fond memories or B. they're just trying to go against the grain.

909 it is still the worst WWF/E PPV I've seen

Bob Barron: Never seen kotr 95?

909I have. Still worse.

Smues: I'd put it in the top 5, but nothing will touch KOTR 99. Mainly because I was there, but still

Bob Barron: KOTR 95 and the ECW PPV are up there for me

Smues: KOTR 99 is #1 with a bullet, and I'd say KOTR95 and RR99 are in the top sphere with WM9

King Kamala Classic: In Your House IV is up there as well. That's the one with Bulldog Vs Diesel on top

909: was at RR 99 and it was terrible, but not on that level

King Kamala Classic: yeah RR 99 isn't a good show but I wouldn't call it one of the worst ever.

Smues: RR99 was the first PPV I ordered live on TV, KOTR 99 was the first PPV I attended. Yeah it's amazing I'm still a fan

909: They showed IYH IV on 24.7 a while ago that one was something bad. They cut out Mabel vs. Yoko too.

Bob Barron: I love the Bulldog more than anyone should, and I was dozing off bad during that match

King Kamala Classic: usually those early IYH had one really good match (I had Bret-Hakushi, II had HBK-Jarrett) but that had nothing

 

 

WrestleMania X

 

King Kamala Classic Alright, I have a lot of nostalgia for this show since this was the first WrestleMania I remember happening as I was a fan (though I didn't see it till it was released on VHS a couple months later). Not a great show wrestling-wise but two undeniably excellent matches in HBK-Razor and Bret-Owen, a fun brawl between Savage and Crush, and the finish that should have ended IX...but I'll take it anyways. The rest of the card isn't anything special but nothing really overstays its welcome except maybe the other World title match even then you had to give it some time being a World title match and all I may have been the only one to have been disappointed to see Sparky Plugg/123 Kid/Tatanka/Smoking Gunns Vs IRS/Rick Martel/Jeff Jarrett/The Headshrinkers cut... Why couldn't they have cut the mixed tag match instead? The ten man tag probably would have been half decent! Anyways, even though might not be one of the greatest WrestleManias but it’s certainly one of my favorites. Also, you have to love the MSG atmosphere.

909: You are not the only one that was disappointed to see that match cut... Anyway, what purpose did Earthquake vs. Adam Bomb serve? What a waste of two minutes I'm just glad MOM didn't win the belts from the Quebecers on this show. Making a good one great. Everything good that could be said about the two ***** matches has been said. Luger vs. Yoko is just what happens when you put Luger in against someone that isn't good. And what happens when Yoko has to wrestle more than 10 minutes. Ending's great. Really strong show.

MillenniumMan831: I got to be honest; I really didn't like this WrestleMania. Yoko about killed my interest in the WWF around this time so I didn't get into most of the angles. However, anything involving Bret Hart was awesome as was Savage's in-ring farewell after his match. Good shit there. Never cared for the Ladder Match other than Michaels's belly flop off the ladder. I don’t know, just never got into the Razor/Michaels feud. Kind of a disappointing Mania but the Hart celebration at the end made up for it

Bob Barron One of the best Manias of all time. Hart v. Hart is the best match I've ever seen, and that one victory roll put Owen Hart on the map and permanently established him as someone to be taken seriously. Then you have HBK and Razor putting the ladder match on the map, and turning Shawn and ladders into stars. There's a lot of filler in between those great matches, but it's just a fun show with a good atmosphere. The special surprise refs is really cool, Luger choking will never not be funny, Savage gets one last Wrestlemania moment and Piper being named ref, Piper decking Cornette, Bret winning the belt back, the in-ring celebration, Owen staring a hole through him. Burt Reynolds. This is a fantastic show

Smues: This is totally a two match show, but both of those matches were great and plenty enough to carry the show. There are some other decent matches, but nothing particularly good. Those matches of course being Bret vs. Owen and the ladder match. Bret vs. Owen was a great technical match, and the ladder match defined what a ladder match should be, and was one of the early 'holy shit!' matches I remember. I don't remember anything being terribly offensive on this show, other than letting Yoko wrestle two matches. Who in the world thought that was a good idea? The guy can't wrestle one match well; let's make him do it twice! Of course it's not like he could have been tired for his second match, as all he did in the Lugar match basically was put Lugar in the pinch hold thing for ten minutes. One of the most boring world title matches ever held at Wrestlemania. And the ending with Perfect turning on Lugar still makes me scratch my head. Speaking of head scratchers, the hair club for men dude bringing out the Fink with a wig on made no sense. And this was also the show with the Bill Clinton impersonator in the crowd. That was really pointless. I will admit liking Rhonda Sheer of USA UP all night fame and Burt Reynolds appearance though.

Bob Barron: It was supposed to go somewhere, but Perfect bailed on the company

King Kamala Classic: Perfect- Luger was supposed to be the big post WrestleMania house show feud but Perfect couldn’t get ensured or something.

Smues: Another good thing about this show that I think some people forget is not only did we get the great moment with Bret getting the belt back and everyone running out to celebrate with him, but they instantly built his next feud with Owen. I really like how as soon as the show was over you already knew the direction things were going to go, something usually lacking in the WWE. This show also seemed to mark a change in style for the federation as a whole, with the transition from Yokozuna 'large fat man' punching and kicking and rest holds to Bret Hart technical wrestling. Always a good thing. A really great Wrestlemania wedged in between two bad ones.

Bob Barron: I think Perfect's argument is that he wouldn't count the pin with people in the ring

Smues: Did they ever even explain the Perfect turn on TV before he bailed?

Bob Barron: and then Luger touched him which is DQ

Smues: Hmm. The best I could figure out was he was mad about WM9. That logic only came to me when I watched WM10 right after WM9, so I'm sure that wasn't the case Hadn't Perfect already taken a whole shitload of money from Lloyd's of London at that point?

King Kamala Classic: I think so. Perfect was also supposed to be the mystery man that turned out eventually to be The Butcher that year in WCW.

Smues: I remember Perfect being in the WWF in like...96? So what did he do after WM10 but before then?

Bob Barron: He just sat at home and collected his insurance money

909: then he announced and did it terribly

[Diamonddust 0]

My thoughts on this one since I couldn't do the chat:

 

Wrestlemania VI: This is, in my opinion, the true successor to Wrestlemania III in that it was a major spectacle show, held in a massive arena, and had a dream-match main event with Hogan vs. Warrior. "Hulk Hogan vs. The Ultimate Warrior" definitely passed the marquee test, as Jim Cornette would say. I remember all the older kids in my school thinking Warrior would win because he was the cooler of the two, while all the younger ones were still behind Hogan. I was on the fence, but I think I was a lean towards Hogan. It's also kind of fitting that this show was also Andre's swan song, but it was good to see him go out to the cheers of the crowd.

 

Wrestlemania VII: The only thing I really like about this show is Savage vs. Warrior and the angle with Liz afterwards. Great drama all around.

 

Wrestlemania VIII: One of the best: Taker squashing Jake and officially becoming the cool "dark" face, An awesome Piper/Hart match that had tons of emotion, Savage vs. Flair, and the return of the Warrior at the end of Sid vs. Hogan. The fact it was also held in a major stadium site (The last until Wrestlemania XVII) helps it a lot.

 

Wrestlemania IX: The less said about this, the better. Trying to make sense of the ending makes my head hurt, but I did dig Taker coming out with the vulture.

 

Wrestlemania X: One of the best as well, even if it's all on the shoulders of two matches. Bret vs. Owen is all kinds of awesome, while Shawn vs. Razor is one of the most influential matches of all time.

 

And has anyone brought up the fact that the reason there seems to be a lot of filler on these shows is that the company tried to give as many of the workers a Wrestlemania payday as possible?

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Hogan/Warrior is one of those matches that doesn't hold up to repeat viewings. Until the ref bump, they don't really do anything; it's just endless restholds and stalling. Once the ref comes to, you get some good moves and a dramatic finish, but other than, the match doesn't offer anything outside of the rare Hogan clean job. And Hogan milking the spotlight at the end to make sure we know who the real star is.

 

VII suffers from having too many matches that don't need to be there. And other than Savage pulling off one of the greatest carry jobs of all time and the subsequent reunion with Liz, which produced an emotional response I don't think we've seen since, there's nothing you really need to ever see again.

 

XI was pure drivel. Just unmitigated drivel and a total ego-fest of a finish.

 

X is terribly overrated. A fantastic opener and a Shawn Michaels having a MotY with a ladder while Scott Hall doesn't fall down doesn't make for a great card. Other than those two matches, the rest ranges from bearable to downright hideous.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I honestly think heel Sgt. Slaughter against Hulk Hogan was a great idea. The Iraqi crap killed it though.

[Papacita 0]

Did they ever even explain the Perfect turn on TV before he bailed?

Yeah, it was pretty much the typical heel "I was sent there to do a job" thing, but the undertones strongly suggested that he never forgave him for WM9. In particular, I remember him being interviewed on the Heartbreak Hotel where he's saying stuff like "Just because he knocked me out a year ago at Wrestlemania doesn't mean I'm incapable of doing my job," and "just because I didn't jump on the bandwagon and put on a red, white and blue wristband (referring to the Lex Express/SummerSlam build) doesn't mean that I've got beef Lex Luger." It was interesting for me, because Perfect was my favorite at the time, and he was the first heel I really ever backed.

 

And what's this shit about Perfect being a bad announcer? Perfect was perfect!

 

8 is probably my all-time favorite Mania, with the Flair/Savage and the post-match being some of my favorite stuff ever. "Everytime I see your old lady, I'm gonna kiss her...on those MOIST...WET...LIPS! WHOOOOOO!!!!!"

 

I actually watched Taker/Gonzales last week. The match and the booking weren't good by any means, but I think Taker gets a little too much blame for this. You can really see he was trying to get something good out of him.

 

And it's been a LONG time since I watched it, but I remember Steiners vs the Headshrinkers being really good. Isn't this the match where Rick caught and powerslammed one of the Headshrinkers in midair as they were going for the Doomsday Device? That spot was nasty.

 

Mania X's ladder match never really did it for me (I still prefer the SS 95 rematch), but I still think this is a classic show that more than deserves its reputation. Glad to see you all give Bret's title win the proper due, since I always felt that was a lot of what makes the show special.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

I think part of the issue with WrestleMania IX was that it was the "peak" of the cartoon gimmicks era and the feuds that were being built weren't captivating enough to carry past the mediocre wrestling.

 

Shawn/Tatanka and Crush/Doink had been feuding for a while but all 4 were just mediocre wrestlers at the time who could go with great wrestlers/great gimmicks (See WM 10 for Shawn and Crush examples). Undertaker and Giant Gonzalez was yet another Taker vs. Big Man feud in that era for him but wasn't as captivating as say, the casket match with Yokozuna angle/build up wise.

 

Bret vs. Yoko was an intriguing match but the post Hogan crap sullied it as did the fact that they essentially did a much better version just a year later at WM 10 while throwing in Luger for a bit of a twist.

[CanadianChris 0]

VI: It's probably remembered better than it should be because pretty much all the faces went over in the big matches and the main event was better than it had any right to be. It's not a great show from a workrate perspective, but the atmosphere was awesome, probably since they finally went back to a big stadium after two years at the very mediocre venue of Trump Plaza. And full credit to Vince for doing something that had never been done on such a large scale, putting his two top babyfaces against each other on the biggest show of the year. One thing I liked from watching the SNME DVD was DiBiase reminding me that one year later, the Roberts-DiBiase feud was FINALLY coming to a close at WMVI, after starting at WMV with DiBiase stealing Damien.

 

VII: Unquestionably Vince's biggest failure up to that point. He tried to sell out the Coliseum and failed miserably, being forced to move it to the LA Sports Arena. For all the criticism the Iraqi angle gets -- and believe me, every single bit of it was deserved -- Hogan-Slaughter was actually a decent match. Al hit it on the head when he said the basic angle of heel Slaughter vs Hogan was a good one without all the other crap. Hogan and Slaughter were such consummate pros that I have no doubt they could have pulled off an epic angle without resorting to all that. Obviously this show is remembered best for the Savage-Liz reunification, and for good reason, as it's one of the WWF's best and most memorable moments ever. I still get choked up watching the end of that match. The match itself was a classic, easily Warrior's best ever. Aside from that, not much to remember, aside from the Hart Foundation's last match, a good one against the Nasty Boys. Perfect-Bossman was very disappointing; I will always believe the Bossman should have gone over to win the title there.

 

VIII: Back to the big stadium show, although it seemed the crowd wasn't nearly as charged up as they were in the Silverdome and the SkyDome. This was basically a two-match show with Flair-Savage and Piper-Hart, but they were both easily all-time top 5 WM matches to that point (along with, IMHO, Savage-Steamboat, Savage-Hogan and Savage-Warrior). Tons of filler, but some memorable moments along the way, with UT squashing Jake the Snake, two EPIC post-match interviews from Savage and Flair, and Warrior's return saving what had been a pretty awful match between Sid and Hogan. I don't think I've ever watched this show all the way through, I always skip to the two big matches.

 

IX: This has to be the worst WM to this point, which is a shame because the Las Vegas venue was an outstanding idea. Really, the less said, the better.

 

X: And we go from the very worst to one of the very best, even if it is another two-match show. You've got the greatest WM opener ever in Bret-Owen. You've got the pioneering ladder match featuring just a blow-away effort by Shawn Michaels, who basically announced his presence (and his greatness) to the wrestling world with this match. And there's the awesome moment at the end of the show, where Bret Hart, the conquering hero, is atop the shoulders of the entire babyface roster while his brother Owen looks on in disgust and jealousy. Throw in a really fun FCA match between Randy Savage (in his last great WWF moment) and Crush, and the always-awesome MSG crowd, and you've got a really good show. Right up there with VIII as the second-best Mania to this point.

[Aero 0]

I generally agree with just about everything said about VI, VII, VIII, and X.

 

But I don't completely hate IX. In fact, I usually look forward to watching it each year when I watch all the WM's each year. I'm not going to defend anything, because I can't, as some of the matches are terrible, and so many finishes suck, but I guess it's just the arena and atmosphere that I like.

 

WM VII would be my second favorite WM (VIII is first) of the first ten years. Warrior-Savage is definitely in my top 5 WM matches, and I just think the entire card is really fun. I even like the Blindfold match. I might be the only one, but I think the Instant Replay segment is hilarious ("Wait a minute George... what do you mean fire him? Like... FROM HIS JOB???"), and I was pretty disappointed that it wasn't included on the WM DVD set.

[Guest]

There's no way they could've made a good WrestleMania 9 with the dogshit that was permeating throughout the card. I have such an immense hatred for this show. It's really a shame, because the other three cards which subsequently took place in 1993 are really quite memorable. A hell of a lot better.

 

As I said, I really like VII. I know some people don't like it, but if they had pulled the trigger on at least one no-brainer booking decision, maybe some would look at it differently.

 

None of these shows hold up well if you watch them more than a few times. Let's just be honest about that. I try to keep the viewings to the minimum and the time between them at long intervals. For instance, Halloween Havoc 1989 and Starrcade 1992 showed up on 24/7 in 2007 and 2008. I simply did not watch them. There are very few shows which I have ever even seen often enough to get tired of. WM 2 would be one of those shows.

 

Just had to touch on that stuff.

[BUTT 0]

Can I get in on the next one of these?

[Ed Wood Caulfield 0]

Yeah, I want to participate in the next chat.

[DrVenkman PhD 0]

I'm sure I'll no-show again and someone will need to take my place, so it's good that offers are on the table.

[King Kamala 0]

11-15 is already full (though bear in mind Venkman is sure to back out for the third week in a row) but 16-20 has a few slots open and it's open season 21-24 and 25...though I doubt there's a terrible amount of interest in this folder in those.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Seeing it mentioned... am I the only one who thought Duggan's commentary at WM VII was shockingly good? Maybe I just had low expectations, judging the book by the character so to speak. But he actually made good, coherent points at times.

 

And yes Kamala, the commercial with the Bushwhacks and Dusty on the garbage truck definately existed.

[Ed Wood Caulfield 0]

Ta-da!

 

That WrestleMania VII commercial definitely existed, King Kamala Classic.

[King Kamala 0]

Well, that was even more awesome than I remembered it being.

[Ed Wood Caulfield 0]

Poor Vince. That dream never came true. Along with the bodybuilding federation...the football league...the record label...the restuarant...

 

Seriously, what is Vince's biggest failure? I think the XFL is the first choice, but moving WrestleMania VII from the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum to the Los Angeles Sports Arena because of poor ticket sales has gotta be up there. I mean, at least the WWE will admit that the XFL was a mistake. To this day, they *still* insist that the reason WrestleMania VII got moved from the Los Angeles Memorial Coliseum was because of a bomb threat. It's like it's the biggest lie in WWE history.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

As I remember it they didn't even sell out the LA Sports Arena.

[Diamonddust 0]

As I remember it they didn't even sell out the LA Sports Arena.

 

He should have known L.A. is an incredibly tough market, regardless the population.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

11-15 is already full (though bear in mind Venkman is sure to back out for the third week in a row) but 16-20 has a few slots open and it's open season 21-24 and 25...though I doubt there's a terrible amount of interest in this folder in those.

 

I'm out for tonight's roundtable, but I'd very much like to get in on 16-20 and 21-24. I think each is a gradually improving scale of what I could bring to the table, conversation-wise.

[King Kamala 0]

Well folks, another slot's open in the roundtable tonight. First one to PM me who hasn't been in either of the first two is in!

[cabbageboy 0]

I didn't watch any wrestling in 1990-91 so I can look at those two WMs objectively. I have always thought (and will always think) that WM VI is a crappy show. Okay it's in the Skydome. So is WM 18, and that is a better show. That whole show is Hogan/Warrior and nothing else. There isn't another remotely decent match on that card. And in a rarity for early WMs, Savage is wasted in a pointless undercard mixed tag.

 

WM VII...not having seen the awful Iraq angle at the time I have no disdain towards this show and thus look at it without bias. This is a hell of a PPV. Warrior/Macho is one of my favorite matches ever, the Hogan/Slaughter match is actually pretty good, the opener with the Rockers is a terrific little match, and Harts/Nastys is also good albeit a downer.

 

WM VIII: I did start watching in time for this show so I recall the angles leading to it. Another great show in my view, with Hart/Piper being a classic and either Piper's 1st or 2nd best match. Flair/Macho was of course gold and should have main evented. The other stuff is at least kinda fun, like HBK/Tito, UT/Jake squash, and Warrior saving Hogan at the end.

 

WM IX: Oh dear. This show has gotten worse with time. It was never good per se, but it's gotten even worse with perspective. The main event and post match angle with Hogan is an atrocity and there's no real standout match to save this show. Also way too many DQs. One of the weakest WMs.

 

WM X: This is a two match show. I've heard people mention this is their favorite WM, but I've never really seen it. I mean god Yokozuna wrestles TWICE on this show. The match with Luger is particularly horrible. And to be honest HBK/Razor is quaint compared to the ladder antics 5-6 years later. Bret/Owen is still a technical classic however.

[King Kamala 0]

Last roundtable slot has been filled by Cheech. Thanks to everybody who entered the "I Want To Be A Member of The WrestleMania Roundtable" contest!

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

There's certainly a degree of irony in people stating that WMVI is a one-match show and then coming right back and defending WMVII because of the great Warrior/Savage match. There is nothing redeeming about WMVII other than that angle. Sure, Hogan/Slaughter is a decent contest, but that's ignoring the fact that the angle sucked, Hogan got the belt back and Sgt. f'n Slaughter was main eventing a show in 1991!

 

Other than that: the Demos match is a dud; Harts jobbing to the Nasty Boys kind of sucks; the LOD match is a throwaway; the IC title match ends in a DQ; and the venue is a letdown. Why are we suddenly praising this event as something special?

[King Kamala 0]

The Nasty Boys/Hart Foundation is a good match despite the disappointing finish as is The Rockers Vs Haku and Barbarian. And I maintain that Hulk Hogan Vs Sgt. Slaughter is one of the better Hogan matches of that era despite the dumbass angle behind it. Three or four good matches is a good ratio for one of the first ten 'Manias. There's nothing else that's definitively bad. Hell, I don't think the blindfold match is quite as bad as its reputation (though it is certainly bad). Like I said, I wouldn't rate it as one of the great WrestleManias of all time but it's certainly a good one and not the out and out misfire that some members of the IWC like to peg it as.

 

I meant to make a point in the roundtable RE: Demos/Japanese dudes (Tenyru and some other dude whose name I forget). You have to remember that this was when WWF was trying to develop a relationship with SWS and Demolition was going absolutely nowhere in March '91 so I don't see the harm in them getting squashed....will admit the match was kind of crappy.

 

Like I said I wouldn't call it one of the great WrestleManias of all time but it's certainly a good one.

[Cheech Tremendous 0]

Wrestlemania IX is certainly terrible, but I still maintain that the Hogan angle at the end looks okay on paper. The biggest problem with that angle is it cut off the legs of Yoko and Bret and had absolutely no follow-up. If Hogan spent the next six months as a face defending the title against Luger, Giant Gonzalez, Yoko and Crush before putting Bret over clean, would people hate the ending as much? As is, it's the ultimate Hogan blowjob finish, but in my mind I can't help but think that they had more in mind when they booked that finish. Really, a straight Yoko-Bret main event with no Hogan interference may have come off worse than what happened, and that's really saying something.

 

The biggest issue, for me, is that they had some decent matches/feuds or possible pairings that they didn't capitalize on by stretching them out to Mania. Off the top of my head, they could have done Hart/Savage, Hogan/Luger, Taker/Gonzalez, Michaels/Janetty, Flair/Perfect, Steiners/Money Inc and Yoko/Duggan. That's not a bad card when you think about it. Combine it with one of the best venues they ever booked and you have a very memorable Mania.

[King Kamala 0]

Just for fun, here's a fantasy WrestleMania IX card I posted on another board where that kind of thing is more acceptable

 

WrestleMania IX

April 4th, 1993

Live from Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas, Nevada

 

 

WWF World title

Bret Hart © Vs "Macho Man" Randy Savage (Bret goes over the veteran in a back and forth 20-30 minute match with both men shaking hands at the end)

 

Hulk Hogan Vs Yokozuna (With Mr. Fuji)

(Schmozz finish with Hogan going over either via DQ or with Fuji accidentally throwing salt in Yoko's eyes. Sets up a rematch at King of The Ring with Yokozuna going over as he did in real life. This will set up Yokozuna beating Bret for The WWF World title and a rematch at WrestleMania X with Bret going over as he did in real life)

 

Mr. Perfect Vs The Narcissist

(Narcissist goes over, perhaps via cheating. Another example of the New Generation going over the old guard)

 

The Undertaker (with Paul Bearer) Vs Giant Gonzalez (with Harvey Whippleman)

(Sadly, I couldn't think of another opponent for 'Taker here. What I'd do actually is have Gonzalez demolish Taker in a quick 5-10 minute match and build up to Taker getting his revenge at SummerSlam. Sure it ends Taker's streak but it avoids having this match the way it was.)

 

WWF Intercontinental title match

Shawn Michaels © Vs Tatanka

(Couldn't think of a better opponent for HBK than the one we got and the match was one of the few watchable ones of the night. I'd have a cleaner finish though. Probably HBK wins via cheating and ends Tatanka's streak and reaffirms his reputation as dickhead heel)

 

WWF Tag Team titles match

Money Inc © Vs The Steiner Brothers

(The Steiner Brothers go over in a back and forth competitive 15 minute match)

 

Crush Vs Doink The Clown

(Crush goes over cleanly, finally getting his revenge on The Clown (despite some shenanigans) and builds himself up to challenge for the IC title or Yokozuna)

 

Razor Ramon Vs Bob Backlund

(Same result as before)

 

"Hacksaw" Jim Duggan and The Nasty Boys Vs Bam Bam Bigelow and The Headshrinkers

(Just a fun sounding six man tag to throw some guys in who I thought should be on the card but weren't. Also fits under the New Generation Vs Old Dudes card. Obviously have Bam Bam and The Shrinkers go over the departing guys)

[CookieMueller 0]

VIII is my favourite WM of all-time. And thanks to Flair I can't just say hoosierdome, I must say HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOsierDOME! Not that I bring up the Hoosierdome in daily conversation, but still.

[daileyxplanet 0]

They really need to have a WrestleMania @ Conseco in honor of the HoosierDome. As far as I know, RAW and Smackdown always does good here.

[PILLS! PILLS! PILLS! 0]

They really need to have a WrestleMania @ Conseco in honor of the HoosierDome. As far as I know, RAW and Smackdown always does good here.

 

No way. Lucas Oil Stadium is beautiful and even bigger than the Hoosier Dome. I expect them to have it there at some point.