At Home 0 Report post Posted March 24, 2009 And yet you use the tenets of libertarianism to form your own opinion! That's not different at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snuffbox 0 Report post Posted March 24, 2009 This is like if, two thousand years from now, the policy in a country is to force everybody to be gay and do ample Benzidrene because it was in really popular Jack Kerouac books of the 1950s. Well, to be more accurate, a Kerouac copycat from the 1990s. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snuffbox 0 Report post Posted March 24, 2009 And yet you use the tenets of libertarianism to form your own opinion! That's not different at all. Nope. I'm not telling anybody that they have to be libertarian or can only marry the person they love if they're both libertarians. I can break out the crayon font if necessary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atticus Chaos 0 Report post Posted March 24, 2009 They're allowed to read their book. They're not allowed to dictate others' lives based on what's inside of that book. True, and I applaud anyone who disagrees with gay marriage for religous reasons, but won't vote for a ban because they don't want to force their beliefs on anyone. But, really, they're allowed to vote with their conscience, and even if I dislike the result, I dont see why they should be punished or judged for that. Or get a lecture from Sean Penn on Oscar night about what bad people they are. Of course there are people who give millions of dollars towards it, and that's a bit different. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaMarcus Russell's #1 Caucasian Fan 0 Report post Posted March 24, 2009 The question is not whether they can vote with their conscience or not, its a matter of amending the state constitution by a fickle popular vote. I don't give a fuck whether those who voted for Prop 8 think about gay people, it seems wrong to exclude others from rights all in society enjoy, just because a book told you so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smues 0 Report post Posted March 24, 2009 I just want to point out that I know a lot of people very opposed to gay marriage who aren't religious at all. I don't quite understand why, but they do exist. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snuffbox 0 Report post Posted March 24, 2009 Do they give any particular reasoning for it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lei Tong 0 Report post Posted March 24, 2009 The most often used argument I've heard is that it would lead to the destruction of the traditional family unit, without which society as we know it would decay. Close second: "It just ain't right." - some redneck at the barbershop Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJerk 0 Report post Posted March 24, 2009 Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Human sacrifice, cats and dogs living together! Mass hysteria! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Ol' Smitty 0 Report post Posted March 24, 2009 ...even if I dislike the result, I dont see why they should be punished or judged for that. Or get a lecture from Sean Penn on Oscar night about what bad people they are. I disagree--while I think a harangue from Sean Penn is not the most productive argument for gay rights, people who vote to deny rights to others SHOULD feel bad about that. Just like people who favored banning interracial marriage prior to Loving vs. Virginia should feel bad about that. I don't think lecturing them or screaming at them is the best way to make them feel bad, but they should. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brett Favre 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Part of religion is trying to improve society. And to some people that means banning gay marriage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atticus Chaos 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 ...even if I dislike the result, I dont see why they should be punished or judged for that. Or get a lecture from Sean Penn on Oscar night about what bad people they are. I disagree--while I think a harangue from Sean Penn is not the most productive argument for gay rights, people who vote to deny rights to others SHOULD feel bad about that. Just like people who favored banning interracial marriage prior to Loving vs. Virginia should feel bad about that. I don't think lecturing them or screaming at them is the best way to make them feel bad, but they should. As far as gay marriage being the same as interracial marriage....eh, I support both, but I'll be honest and say I think objecting to interracial marriage is probably 'worse' than objecting to gay marriage. People wanted interracial marriage banned to keep black people and white people apart, but I don't know if that's the same reason people oppose gay marriage. In fact, I'm sure it's not. There are some comparisions between gay marriage and interracial marriage, but they're not the same thing either. It's worth noting that No on 8 used the arguement that if gay marriage was banned, it could be the beginning of a movement to ban interracial marriage- and black people still voted for it in large numbers. That arguement doesn't work with most people. Sean Penn... I got what he was trying to say but he came off as obnoxious. Obviously, he should've said something about gay rights because of the film's subject, but honestly, I think you have a better chance of changing people's opinions about gay marriage if you don't start out with 'why are you such a hateful bigot?' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Smues 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 A variety of reasons. The traditional family thing, it's just wrong, it's sick, it's a mental disease, and all gay people are crazy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZGangsta 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Part of religion is trying to improve society. And to some people that means banning gay marriage. Oh that's complete bullshit. Religion is not about 'improving society' in the least bit. Religion is all about getting yourself into whatever crazy afterlife that your religion believes in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
909 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Religion is all about getting yourself into whatever crazy afterlife that your religion believes in. No, that's crap. I think I'll intrude on the religion bashing fest some of you have begun to make this thread into. Given that some of you are preaching tolerance in this thread, it's awfully hypocritical to see some of the things you've said about religion. In doing so, you are no better than those who you claim to be bigoted. You are just the same as they are. I know I'll be the only person to present this side. I'm just looking to say my piece, I don't want to argue about it and trade insults, but I'll talk about it. Just saying. If something is put up for citizens to vote on, people are going to vote based on their personal beliefs. Regardless of what those beliefs may be, people are going to vote based on those. If people believe gay marriage is morally wrong, well, guess what, they're going to vote yes on a proposition banning gay marriage. Politics is about shoving your beliefs on other people. It's really funny that in a current events folder, people are complaining about beliefs being shoved upon them. Some of you mock and laugh at others when things don't go their way, but right here you are shoving your vaginas with sand. People getting stepped on is life, that is current events, that is politics anywhere and everywhere. Duh. If you can't deal with that, fucking tough. Grow thicker skins and man up. Another thing, and I'm not sure whether or not you guys are willing to acknowledge this or not, but most people (yes, even some who voted no on this proposition and even some of you here) find two dudes being with each other gross. You'll find that people who don't find it gross would be lumped into a fringe group. You'll also find that the number of people who don't want gays to be happy are also a fringe group. Hell, nobody cares about them living with one another, fucking one another, or whatever. It's that marriage shit which gets everyone all amped up. Many people don't want their kids to be taught in school that it's okay for two people of the same sex to be married. Most people also have a problem with even the possibility of it being shoved in their face. Something like that is up to the parents and whether they want their children told that or not. Parents have an alarming fear that their kids will grow up and not continue their bloodline. For the most part anyway. I don't know about some of you guys, but my parents, they bug me all the time about having kids. See me, I don't care about gay dudes, because if you live next to them, they take care of their property, they keep the area looking good, and that reflects well on you for living in an area which looks so nice. They help clean it up and are generally very active in making sure the neighborhood stays safe. When I have kids, I don't want them to be told by a stranger that it's okay for them to get married to another boy if they want to. That's my only beef. Well, I also get mad when gays compare their "struggle" to those of blacks and Mexicans. Fucking please. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJerk 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 When I have kids, I don't want them to be told by a stranger that it's okay for them to get married to another boy if they want to. Similarly, I don't want my daughter being told someone doesn't deserve to be able get married just because they're different. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 909- Regarding you point about gays teaching children about marriage: Is this something that you'd prefer to do as a parental figure (tell the kids)? Or do you just a problem with it in general? Because it seems a bit off to say that you don't care about gays but then have a problem with them teaching acceptance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lei Tong 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Well, I also get mad when gays compare their "struggle" to those of blacks and Mexicans. Fucking please FWIW: I come from a Mexican family, with large parts of my family having to deal with some pretty fucked up situations relating to our ethnicity, and none of us have any problem with the comparison. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atticus Chaos 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 The school thing...is a touchy subject. And as I said, it was the main reason prop 8 passed. Both sides seem to have acknowledged that. From what I understand, Yes on 8 were exaggerating when they indicated that young children would be going to gay weddings every week, and they'd be learning about gay baheviour...etc. but No on 8 were being disingenuous when they said it would not be taught in schools. It could be. There's nothing that says it can't be and if you're teaching kids about marriage, if gay marriage is equal why not teach them? I happen to think they learn about gay marriage anyway, since nowadays its not unusual for someone to have two dads or two moms and they have sleepovers and birthday parties and children can encounter it there. So, I'm not bothered about it myself. But I do think you have to be honest with people, and if they are strongly against their children being taught that, then you probably shouldn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snuffbox 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Many homosexuals have been brutally murdered for being so and have spent decades trying to overcome those that would deny them rights solely based upon their differences. The comparisons are definitly apt, 909. And I have no desire to see my children taught that it is ok to have separate rights for people who better exemplify contemporary social mores. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
909 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Is this something that you'd prefer to do as a parental figure (tell the kids)? I thought I put that in. Guess I didn't. Yes. Considering it is such a divisive issue, that one should be left entirely at home. Marriage as it is right now doesn't pertain to something that needs to be taught in school. Unlike science. Perhaps as it is done with sex education, slips can be sent home and parents can give notification w/r/t whether or not they are okay with their children being taught about marriage as a whole. FWIW: I come from a Mexican family, with large parts of my family having to deal with some pretty fucked up situations relating to our ethnicity, and none of us have any problem with the comparison. I've encountered a whole lot of people who say differently. Mileage is definitely varied on that one. I don't think it compares in the least. since nowadays its not unusual for someone to have two dads or two moms and they have sleepovers and birthday parties and children can encounter it there. It is uncommon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atticus Chaos 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Many homosexuals have been brutally murdered for being so and have spent decades trying to overcome those that would deny them rights solely based upon their differences. The comparisons are definitly apt, 909. And I have no desire to see my children taught that it is ok to have separate rights for people who better exemplify contemporary social mores. The comparision may or may not be apt, but it doesn't work. Right or wrong, people don't see race and sexuality as the same thing, and in fact, there's been a lot of proof that comparision can backfire and piss off ethnic minorities. I remember Rolling Stone had an article about prop 8, and someone noted that No on 8 getting, I think, Samuel L Jackson to do an advert based on that very same comparision probably cost them a lot of votes because 'it royally pissed people off'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
909 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Many homosexuals have been brutally murdered for being so and have spent decades trying to overcome those that would deny them rights solely based upon their differences. The comparisons are definitly apt, 909. If you can point out to me a time in history in which this country mass enslaved gays, I'd like to hear it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brett Favre 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Part of religion is trying to improve society. And to some people that means banning gay marriage. Oh that's complete bullshit. Religion is not about 'improving society' in the least bit. Religion is all about getting yourself into whatever crazy afterlife that your religion believes in. I hope you aren't serious Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snuffbox 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 I'd take that trrain if we were talking about slavery, rather than the denial of marriage rights based upon differences. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
909 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 You said that many homosexuals were murdered because they were homosexuals, and I countered with something that properly fit. What happened to blacks in the past happened because they were black and for that reason only. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big Ol' Smitty 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Children SHOULD be taught, if not necessarily by schools, that it's okay to love and be with the person you love. Fuck you if you think it's icky, it's none of your fucking business. And 909, your description of politics as "shoving your beliefs on other people" is stupid and wrongheaded as is your attempt to draw moral equivalency between those on this board critical of religion and the gay bashing religious. The difference is that snuffbox et al. aren't arguing for the government treating a group of people differently based on an ideology. (As an aside, while I am the creator of the most confrontational anti-religion thread in this folder's history, I generally don't think the snuffbox approach to religion, while I may agree with it, is very productive.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HarleyQuinn 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 It's Elementary is already a step towards homosexuality being taught to kids. The best part about the documentary, IMO, is that a large percent of the quotes come from the kids themselves and they make good and bad remarks. The innocence in their reactions is refreshing compared to the overzealousness of adults. I find the idea of disrupting the "traditional" household a laughable argument at best. What are gays going to do? Adopt children or raise kids from in vitro fertilization and actually *gasp* be their own families? Not to mention most gays and lesbians have females/males in their lives so it's not like their kids will be devoid completely of a female or male role model. Many homosexuals have been brutally murdered for being so and have spent decades trying to overcome those that would deny them rights solely based upon their differences. The comparisons are definitly apt, 909. While gays aren't being siphoned into their own bathrooms, etc. the attacks are still happening, sadly. Two guys beaten up in Oregon on Sunday Also the hate crimes support this, Anti-Gay Hate Crimes. Anti-gay incidents accounted for more than half of hate-crime cases last year — 56 percent — a big jump from only 15 percent in 2007 (Santa Clara County only). There were 14 anti-gay cases out of 25 hate-crime cases in 2008, compared with only 3 out of 20 in 2007. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
snuffbox 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 I agree, but I'm not necassarily trying to be 'productive' here. I am well aware that those that oppose gay marriage rights will not be swayed by messageboard posts; we've covered this particular ground many times before. I certainly hope I have my act toned down for my forthcoming Church Tour in an effort to hustle future votes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brett Favre 0 Report post Posted March 25, 2009 Who my child falls in love with is my business. I'm sorry if i'm not as liberal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
