justcoz

They didn't offend you on a personal level but I'm sure there were dozens of things happening that offended somebody in the viewing audience. People being turned off from the wrestling product isn't something that just happened recently. People from the 70's Sammartino era were turned off by Cyndi Lauper and Mr. T. being involved. My friend Peter's mom wouldn't let him watch wrestling because Roddy Piper was calling Mr. T a porch monkey in Wrestlemania 1 buildup. He'd come over my house to watch. They've always walked the line on potentially offensive issues. The Golf War/Sgt. Slaughter angle? I remember people being offended by the Brian Pillman/Steve Austin gun angle. Puke. The Goldust character. Alcoholic Road Warrior Hawk. Randy Savage being abusive to Elizabeth. You know, I was pissed about the Jim Ross situation but it led to Joey Styles getting hired and I was ok with that. A car that wasn't even Eddie Guerrero's being used in that angle didn't offend me - I just thought it was stupid and ill-advised. They've done plenty of more offensive things in their history. I also disagree with you that they had a better wrestling product at those times. They didn't. They had very few really good workers during the Hogan era and it was a completely different style of wrestling. They always pushed bodybuilder and big power guys over small wrestlers in the WWF. Vince would want Ted Arcidi over Eddie Gilbert or Curt Henning. Warlord and Dino Bravo had programs before Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart. The 90's WWF was centered around PPV main event stealers like HBK and Bret but much of the undercard was awful. They have a much better talent roster today and the quality of most of the wrestling is fine - I'd like a faster pace and the end or restrictions on the cruiserweights too but I understand why they want guys on the road like this to pace their matches, protect themselves from the high risk stuff and tell stories in the ring. What sucks is they don't realize that the guys are doing just fine telling stories in the ring. It's the people in the back that aren't telling good stories and getting people interested in the matches. IT's the fact that Stephanie McMahon heading creative hasn't done shit to draw money or ratings and never will. We remember them along with every other piece of Wrestlecrap from the 80's on. That's why there is an entire web site devoted to Wrestlecrap. You make fun of it. You laugh about it. You laugh when you visualize Eddie spraying Big Show now because you remember Eddie performing, not because it was good. Al Wilson and Tim White can stand proudly beside Mae Young's hand, Big Bossman's dog steak and all of the other TERRIBLE TERRIBLE ideas. Agreed that their fixiation seems to be on making Vince happy and entertaining themselves but that is comparable to mismanagement. But MLB may as well be predertmined because the team with money get the good players and win and The Pittsburgh Pirates lose because the structure of MLB isn't fair to small market teams and they can't compete. That particular team also have an office and management that don't make good decisions. I still watch baseball even though it's not the same as it was twenty years ago. I watch it partly because of my attachment to it when it was better and that team when they were good. I hope that it gets better and there is a good moment now and then. There is a prospect that comes up in the system that you get excited about. It's the same thing with WWE. Maybe the McMahons will change their decision making process. Maybe somebody will challenge Vince McMahon to change his product, the drug testing could be the start of that, why do you think the belt went on Bret Hart during the last steroid controversy? Maybe the company will realize that the real promising prospects coming up are guys influenced more by HBK, Bret and Eddie rather than the muscleheads. So I still watch with interest, perhaps not the same amount of interest as I had seven years ago (I'm more likely to miss a Smackdown or DVR a Raw) even if I don't necessarily like most of what I see. It could change and I'll be there watching if it does. All it takes is one breakout talent or one breakout storyline or angle. A few weeks ago, when they did the Eric Bischoff Trial, I had a really good time and watched the entire episode. That show reminded me of the shows that I used to enjoy in the late 90's and people on here HATED IT. Agreed. Let's also not overlook the fact that you are still posting on a wrestling message board, in a WWE folder, so there is still some semblance of an interest in the subject. In your case you aren't watching it but you are still here and I think many of the people on this board fall into that category but there is also a category of people who still watch it, even passively, not with the passion of years ago and like a little bit of what they see. Then there are a group of people who still set their time aside, watch it with the same fury of yesterday, enjoy some of what they see and speak out on what they don't like. Those who may enjoy it don't hold it to the same standards that you do. My Gram watches soaps and still watches Days of Our Lives and likes it even though she's always telling me about some ridiculously dumb thing they are doing and how she's about ready to stop watching (she's been saying this for 35 years). I do watch that other federation and I desperately try to get an attachment towards the product. However I see the same number of problems with their show as I see with WWE. I see one star taking up four segments of a one hour show, hording the championship, having women inexplicably fight over him. I see an entire group of wrestlers (most of the X Division stars minus AJ, Joe and maybe Daniels) in desperate need of mic time, character development and storylines - not to mention being treated as a sideshow attraction for the company when they should be their 'core superstars', not a seperate division, while washed up talents are recycled into main event slots. I see terribly acted backstage segments. I see wrestling full of excitment and action but with no emotional tie to any of the workers, no care for who wins or loses as they all seemingly blend in together in a sea of highspots without a storyline reason for all this action. I haven't been impressed with any of their uses of the Dudleys and Christian. I see a company that has potential to do something special and completely different but is stuck in a mess of bad office decisions and growing pains. So I'm just as disinterested in both products. I'm drawn to WWE for TV and TNA for PPV's but neither are what they should be in my eyes.

I find plenty of it idiotic. But no more idiotic than Uncle Elmer's Wedding, Papa Shango making Ultimate Warrior vomit with his voodoo, Jake Roberts' snake biting Randy Savage, Ronnie Garvin in drag, Vader inviting Sting to the White Castle of Fear, Kamala eating a chicken and Fugi Vice. My point is crappy storylines, terrible gimmicks and bad booking decisions are one of the fun things about being a pro wrestling fan. Even when they were getting incredible ratings during the last boom in late 90's and providing very entertaining television we had Meat, Beaver Cleavage, The Oddities, Big Show's daddy's funeral, The Yetti, Glacier, Viagra on Pole Matches, Hummers running wrestlers over, etc. You can't watch this stuff without a sense of humor and that is apparently your problem. Not that a mock suicide, colonoscopy or necrophilia are necessarily funny but the idea that someone suggested such ideas in a meeting, thought they were good ideas and had that sentiment echoed by an enthusiastic Vince McMahon makes this shit hysterical. And people hate it. Cry they are having their intelligence insulted but years down the road, on some internet message board, they will fondly recall Al Wilson, Billy and Chuck's gay wedding, Eddie Guerrero spraying feces on Big Show and Vince McMahon making employess kiss his bare ass. The key is that, for diehards, in between all of the bullshit and stuff that makes you embarrassed to be a fan, there are times, matches and personalities that you treasure and will remember. Despite the product not being consistently good, I've seen plenty of promos that I've liked, enjoyed certain episodes of Raw, watched some pretty good wrestling, enjoyed matches from both TNA and WWE PPV's and enjoyed a nostalgia trip with the ECW PPV. Some good DVD's that chronical shit that I both enjoyed and hated have appeared on the market. I've watched plenty of shows uninterested in the product, bored out of my mind but you know what, I've watched plenty of television that I've looked forward to only to be disappointed. I've watched plenty of football games that sucked. I've gone to baseball games, spending a ton of money on tix, food, drinks, merchandise, etc. to leave the ball park completely miserable over the outcome, swearing I'll never go see the Pittsburgh Pirates again. I have spent plenty Saturday nights at home, waiting for SNL, to watch REALLY BAD tv. I've disliked how certain documentaries were produced. Beend disappointed with certain series or season finales. But if you enjoy something you take the good with the bad and hope for the best.

Having talked to a lot of friends and family members after suggesting they check out TNA they all say the same thing. They think the talent is there but TNA's fast pace and lack of establishing characters for the X Division guys confuses them. My uncle stated that it's fun to watch, there is a "wow" element and a feeling that you are seeing action you won't see on WWE but he's left not really knowing the talent or without a care as to who wins or loses. Both of us hate how they seemingly cram the X Division guys in so many six man tags or three or four way matches. It's confusing, particularly if you are a first time viewer (like my uncle and gradfather) and not a 'smart fan' who knows these guys from ROH DVD's. I also think that it's ridiculous as a whole to have the 'X Division'. It pigeonholes the talent into a role in the card within a division that they can't escape. People like Samoa Joe, AJ, Christopher Daniels, Alex Shelley, Austin Aries, etc. should just be TNA talent. Not X Division stars. They should have characters, mic time, storylines and feuds rather than spotfests designed to just showcase the division. Yes, the one hour of programming limits TNA but it's a matter of effectively using that time to get guys over. It's just as easy to write a program between Austin Aries and Chris Sabin, give Austin some tempermental Irishman shitkicker gimmick and actually book angles to put over their series of matches as it is to have yet more Monty Brown, Kip James and Abyss squashes every week. And if I'm wrong with that analogy than ok, I don't follow the product all that much as I'd like to because I have difficulty maintaining interest, even though I think the action itself, particularly with the X Division, is the best in the business. I just don't remember the actual matchups as much as I'll remember HBK or Benoit vs. Angle. That's because the action leads to nothing and is paced so fast that it all just blurs together IMO. I want TNA to succeed more than anything. This is just something that irritates me.

The Hart Family didn't even like the RAW-Owen tribute, let alone a memorial card. Eddy's family were appreciative of the tribute shows. There wasn't any wrongful death or negligence lawsuits filed by the Guerrero's and no apparent bitterness towards the McMahons. I agree that Owen is deserving of such a memorial show as well but it wasn't something that could have necessarily been done following his death. I'd like to see a DVD myself.

The David Von Erich Memorial Cards were as blatant 'commercialism off of a death' as wrestling has ever seen. If those shows were your motivation, then, yes, I'd have to say that this would be in bad taste. They were definitely blatant commercialism, I mean, this was a man who actually created family members when his real sons kept dying off. But to the people in Texas and to the people following wrestling in magazines like PWI, etc. it was indeed a big event, even pre-Wrestlemania, and people saw it as nothing more than a tribute card. It wasn't until the Von Erich saga kept continuing with Mike and Chris passing that it became obvious of how warped Fritz's line of thinking was and how desperate he was to continue the cash cow even after the tragedies. The When World's Collide PPV was the main motivation, the Von Erich Memorial just initiated the discussion. My way of thinking was it was that particular card where Eddie was first able to break somewhat in the U.S. and it would be a good testing ground to showcase possible future talent from Mexico, Japan, indies, ROH, etc. - in addition to Eddie's close friends in the industry - and a style of wrestling WWE typically doesn't do. If they can put JT Smith, Balls Mahoney and Axl Rotten in a one shot PPV, why not other guys looking to showcase themselves for the biggest company in the world.

Which would be fitting - that's why I suggested Bischoff as possibly booking the show.

Yes, I read that. I think Meltzer said WWE are going to allow Benoit, Rey and Chavo to work the show which is why I thought, that would be a nice idea to rip off for PPV.

Thank you, I didn't even realize how it sounded. Apologies.

This came from a discussion at my office about dead wrestlers, we brought up the David Von Erich Memorial Card and how much we all marked out for that every year as kids. Then we ran around putting Von Erich claws on each other while the people who didn't get it just thought we looked like idiots. But we did look like idiots. I just dont see another ECW PPV working. Especially if Heyman leaves. But Joey Styles won't be special because he's on Raw each week, the Dudleys are gone, etc. I think they should just consider running a television show from the Hammerstein Ballroom. Maybe even put SNME there to make the show feel different from Raw and Smackdown, stay in SNL's "Live From New York" tradition and give them NY exposure since they aren't running the Garden. There's another rumor to start.

Would this be in bad taste if they went this route? Is it cashing in on his death? Since Eddie loved the business so much, I just think it would be fitting to hold a yearly event in his honor. Maybe let Paul Heyman (if they re-sign him) or Eric Bischoff book it. Have WWE guys, invite guys from Mexico, Japan, ROH (non TNA affiliated guys I guess), etc. Maybe even do some sort of tournament. Heavy on cruisers and luchas. I think it would be a nice pay-per-view or do you just let Eddie fade into memory along with Owen, Pillman, etc. ? I guess you can't have a PPV for every guy who passes away prematurely, I just think it's more fitting for Eddie given the Guerrero family legacy, maybe even hold it in Texas.

It was more than likely all of these contributing factors. Sure there was a curiosity to see whether or not Eric Bischoff would get fired and if they'd name his replacement. Still, I don't think this was a HUGE factor like many of you are implying because there was no bump last week in Raw's rating when that show was based around whether Bischoff would save his job. And the whole, "you're getting fired" thing has been played out plenty of times with a number of characters, never sparking a rating. There was a weak Monday Night Football game. Many television shows, particularly the network lineups, were reruns. There was no competition from something like Two and a Half Men or Medium. So people tuned in to wrestling. They saw Vince McMahon looking like a jackass in a robe, playing judge. Mick Foley playing an attorney with a batman lunchbox, eating moon pies. They saw an 80 year old woman gesturing that she eats pussy. An interpretor translating Tajiri telling Coach that he has no penis. A big black man break a clock over his head. Edge talk about Ric Flair's arrest. A good HBK/Shelton angle. And they kept watching. It's really quite simple.

It was an entertaining show, felt exactly like a USA Raw Is War from 98 or 99. I knew this would get a decent rating.

How exactly can a match be gay or ghey? The court segment was dragged out to be funny. Some people thought it was. Others didn't. I personally found it more entertaining than most of the stuff on WWE television lately. It was silly but it was silly done right as opposed to the JR colonoscopy. I wanted to hate it because I watch WWE programming lately iwith that state of mind, I want them to annoy and piss me off, I expect it. I laughed at those segments though and I felt it was as good as the TNA 3-D funeral. I think Edge's gimmick is to be a loose cannon ala Pillman and say things he isn't supposed to say. Things the office wouldn't want him to say. Such as calling Slaughter and Hayes Vince's yes-men, mocking Ric Flair and making the Terry Gordy reference. I found nothing wrong with the remark. It's not like Terry Gordy died two weeks ago. He was coming across as desperate for saying it in retaliation towards Hayes getting the best on the mic and saying he wasn't a main eventer and never sold out an arena. I thought it was an excellent promo, I loved the segment.

Pointing out the legit weaknesses of a babyface is a terrrible idea. The people already think Shelton is a loser. They don't need that confirmed. I think even the casual fans realize that Shelton was beating HHH and holding the IC championship and is now losing most of his matches. There is nothing wrong with bringing that into a storyline where someone like HBK is trying to motiviate him into getting his intensity back. Just as long as it doesn't turn into one of those 'losing streak' angles that never go anywhere. I'm feeling this is leading to a heel turn more than anything.

Most entertaining Raw in some time. I understand the "too much talk" criticism but I was entertained. Everyone involved with the Eric Bischoff Trial skits were great in their roles. They make reference to Shelton's misuse and it involves a storyline with HBK. Edge and Lita being hell bent on exposing everyone's personal problems to the tv audience is a good gimmick for them. Michael Hayes' promo was incredible - the Terry Gordy stuff was touchy but it's been longer than two weeks since his death - and I like how they acknowledged Mr. McMahon's new breed of Stooges to the tv audience. They are finally going to acknowledge HHH and Stephanie's relationship on camera which could lead to some interesting storylines. The Lance Cade vs. Chavo Guerrero match was nice, remindng me of a Nitro match at times, both guys had an opportunity to show their stuff - the show continued around them but Styles and Lawler didn't stray from the action, Styles doing the Guerrero family history lesson was good as well. I'm really suprised people are bashing this episode. Yes, it's nice to see good wrestling but these shows need to be entertaining as well. Lately, we've been getting neither. I'll settle for at least one whenever I can get it. Besides, the wrestling when there was some, wasn't too shabby. The tag team elimination match was the worst match but at least succeeded in making Big Show/Kane look like monsters.

I never understood why they just didn't change it to World Wrestling Federation Entertainment. They could still refer to the titles as the World Wrestling Federation and they could have created a new block style WWF logo with the word entertainment on the bottom? Of if they intended on doing the brand split, since they own the name WCW, one brand could have been World-Wide Wrestling Federation and the other could have been World Championship Wrestling - World Wrestling Entertainment would just be the parent company of both organizations.

The thing is, while he was teaming with Charlie Haas, he did have an "it" factor. He was a smug arrogant cocky heel with loads of talent. His mannerisms and facial expressions in the ring suggested that he had some charisma. He actually carried that skit where he and Haas mocked the APA. These were the reasons they moved him to Raw and were hell bent on pushing him as a babyface. And in his first match on Raw against HHH he displayed much of that same charisma. The way he would playfully slap HHH in the ring or mess up his hair when he came out the victor on the mat. He was turned into a smiling babyface in amateur wrestling attire rather than a cocky bad ass gifted athlete. It's another example of WWE taking someone who was turning heads with a heel demeanor and making them a generic bland babyface. He's blowing high spots because he's probably worried about generating a pop from the crowd since WWE creative do nothing to establish a character for him or a storyline for his role. His only hope of getting a pop is his athleticism so there probably is some pressure there. Turn him heel. Give him a mouthpiece like Coach, Teddy Long or Paul Heyman. Put him in black ring attire. Turn the smile into a smirk and act as if he's WWE's Terrell Owens - the greatest pure athlete in the company. But, no, we are WWE and we will have him uncomfortably recite ridiculous nursery rhymes or re-enact the worlds tiniest violin taunt.

Are you kidding me? ESPN and news outlets would be all over an Olympic gold medalist dying while wrestling as a pro. My fiance's father knows nothing about pro wrestling, thought that I was referring to the reverend when I talked about Superstar Billy Graham, but he wrestled in high school. Whenever I have wrestling on, whether it's WWE, TNA or the ECW PPV, he's going to ask me how Kurt Angle is doing. People remember Olympic gold medal winners. His win wasn't as pushed into pop culture as Mary Lou Retton but plenty of people knew the name of Kurt Angle before he even stepped on WWE television. He was a celeb in his hometown of Pittsburgh, did sportscasting for local news a few appearances on ESPN. It's ridiculous to even argue about who people would care more about if they died in similar circumstances as Eddie but it was even more ridiculous for Keller and company to publish such a statement. I personally can't see anyone else on the current roster that the reference could apply to. Nobody knows who HHH is. He may think he's a crossover celeb like The Rock and we may think he's a crossover celeb because he's a McMahon and all over their television but I could hardly see mainstream media caring. Then again, if you would have told me Eddie Guerrerro was going to die at 38 years old and the media would be all over the story, citing his draw as a Latino superstar, the importance of his WWE title win, speaking of his family's wrestling background, etc. - I wouldn't have believed you either. This sucks. Things in the business, particularly WWE, need to change.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Nothing to be upset about and I don't think it was something done in disrespect. I was kind of thinking just take the camera off of her, something like that should have been noticed while the show was edited. Not to pick about booking when I'm sure booking was the last thing on anyone's mind but I was expecting some sort of tribute from Eugene. I thought maybe he'd mimic Eddie's suplexes, do a frog splash or cheat to win in Eddie style. Again it's stupid to talk about this stuff but it was just something I thought would be a nice touch.

I think it's difficult to judge how two guys are feeling emotionally based on a 5 minute athletic exhibition. Nitro and Mercury haven't been in the company very long and perhaps weren't very close to Eddie personally. I'm sure they were still feeling some sort of shock and emotion. Have you ever worked in an office where someone died and you weren't particularly close to them but you see the reactions of those who were? It's still a lousy day for you. You still pick up the phone and go about business as usual but you aren't feeling particularly good. You are thinking about things beyond "business as usual" but in a setting where you are expected to go about 'business as usual'. And I doubt very much that Randy Orton booked his own finish in that match. That was probably a company decision in the event that they put the World championship on Orton, can't very well have him job in four minutes to the Raw champion, regardless of the circumstances of that night. It was a throwaway match in a lot of ways but marks are going to remember that Rey Mysterio beat HBK. If people were booking their own finishes tonight, I'd be pissed at Kurt Angle for not throwing a bone to Shelton Benjamin.

Whether or not anything comes from the phone calls and e-mails this guy and ESPN need to know that there are times when you just "don't go there" even if it's something as low as pro wrestling. It doesn't matter that he more than likely won't be forced to issue an apology or ESPN may not take any action - what matters is that there were a ton of calls and emails from people angry over this not newsworthy death that "nobody cared about". These smug arrogant sports reporters don't realize that this wasn't someone wrestling in gyms or someone that peaked twelve years ago and was currently down and out or struggling. This is someone who was main eventing Wrestlemanias and making Smackdown a top rated show among his latino and hispanic demographic up until this past Friday. If he wanted to make a statement on a possible steroid tie-in than that's fine. Speculation mind you but understandable given Eddie's age. Educate yourself and make a statement along the lines of Mark Madden who at least recognizes and knows the business for what it is. I doubt very much that Cowherd even looked at a picture of Eddie Guerrero, read his backstory or even knew the magnitude of his role in current programming before making such idiotic remarks.

At the very least, lets hope this tragedy pushes Vince to take action over steroids. Even if Eddie's death isn't steroid related, this is really the final straw in terms of wrestler's dying young. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I don't like commenting on these things until the cause of death is clear but if this is indeed steroid related then I hope it's some sort of wake up call to Vince McMahon that the days of huge muscle men are passe, there is no need to make smaller guys unnessarily bulk up with steroids, growth hormone, etc. The business right now is geared towards smaller competitors. These are the guys that grew up watching HBK, Bret, Mysterio, Benoit, young Eddie, etc. TNA has picked up on that and Vince and company are still not pushing guys because of size or flat out suggesting that they won't hire you unless you are built like Chris Masters (see Samoa Joe). With the feds having their attention on steroids and major league sports something like the death of a 38 year old wrestler, getting massive amounts of media attention, isn't going to go ignored. He would be best served to implement necessary changes right now before the feds target another WWE investigation. He won't get away twice. Jerry Jarrett is available now though.

OWNED! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Agreed. I loved that. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> thanks, that should have been my opening line...

My email: Mr. Cowherd, regardless of your personal feelings towards professional wrestling, many of us are mourning the death of Eddie Guerrerro and do not appreciate your remarks. Everyone is well aware that pro wrestling is not a legitimate sport. It's an atheletic soap opera. Eddie Guerrerro was an incredible athlete who displayed that athleticism to millions around the world with his high flying and amateur wrestling skills. There is an art to what these men do that mindless sports geeks like yourself may never understand. The ability to carry the flow of a match, ring psychology (making what you do seem believable), selling (making your opponent look good) and the charisma to make an audience react. Eddie Guerrerro mastered all of these. He could control an audience of 15,000 people with one facial expression, one promo on the microphone or one impressive move on the mat or in the air. Eddie had a serious problem with alcohol and prescription pain killers in 2001. He lost his job with WWE as the result. These men commonly fall victim to pain killer addictions due to the abuse they physically put their bodies through on a nighly basis. Eddie overcame his demons, was rehired by WWE and is said to have celebrated his fourth year of sobriety recently. The entertainment he provided in those four years to those of us silly enough to watch professional wrestling is unforgetable. Being a smaller performer, there is always pressure to have the steroypical look of a pro wrestler and Eddie did put on some muscle mass in recent years. We all know that 38 year old men don't just die suddenly without suspicion and it's all too common in pro wrestling. If his death is steroid related then perhaps it will be a warning to those athletes in all sports that choose to go that route. If it's the result of an anneurysm, due to taking one too many steel chair shots to the head, then perhaps pro wrestling will alter their product due to the seriousness of this situation. We don't know yet and it's completely ignorant for you to preach your assumption like it's the holy word. Eddie Guerrerro's death did matter however! And people do care! Watch RAW tonight on USA to see how these men, who travel together 300 days a year, cared about this man. Those of us who loved and respected this man for the entertainment he provides us will. Mark my words. More people care about Eddie Guerrerro's death than you can ever hope to care ahout your own.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Damn, now I'm confused.