Mr. S£im Citrus

I'll respectfully disagree to this extent (while openly admitting that I haven't done the research on this): I think that the learning curve is significantly shorter for kids that go to college. I think that those players that played at least two years of college pick up both offensive and defensive schemes faster, they figure out what they can rely on in the NBA faster, and generally seem able to contribute to a winning environment more quickly. I feel that, in general, it probably takes the average upperclassman 1-2 years to "find their level" in the NBA, whereas it seems to take the high school kids and underclassmen closer to 3-4, or even 5 years. I don't think that college upperclassmen are "learning on the job" nearly to the degree that underclassmen and high schoolers seem to.

For a moment, I'd considered taking the "alone on the island" part of the OP too seriously, but then I decided to go with this, anyway: Teddy Pendergrass - Life is a Song Worth Singing When they came up with the phrase "baby making music," they were talking about Teddy F. Pendergrass. While there are other albums by Teddy with songs I like better, this one has more disco tracks, and would be better suited to a solitary island life. Honestly, I like Teddy a little better, but you can't properly appreciate Come Go With Me and Turn Off the Lights without the company of the opposite sex...

1. As I said before, you and I have different definitions of "solid." Maybe you place a higher premium on potential than I do, but I don't consider Livingston, Wright, Blatche, Johnson, Telfair or Green to be "solid." And what is your definition of "drafted high," exactly? Is "high" covered by the entire first round? 2. I didn't say they were better, I said that they didn't have to learn how to play. Ed O'Bannon, Mateen Cleaves, Shawn Respert, Jeryl Sasser, Randolph Childress... They were all busts in the NBA. As were others that played 3-4 years of college. But they didn't have to be taught how to play when they got to the NBA. They knew how to play, they just didn't have the talent to play at the NBA level. As I said in my last post, I would rather see players that know how, even if they aren't very good, than 'diamonds in the rough.' Maybe it's just me, but I already qualified my statement as being a matter of taste. 3. Your numbers are impressive, and I concede that I can't dispute hard math, but I feel that it doesn't disprove my argument. I've never said that college players are empirically better than high school players, and I've never said that high school players don't pan out. What I've said is that these kids coming out of high school have to learn how to play. And that irks me. Only a handful of these guys were legitimately ready coming out of high school and, in my opinion, if it takes you a couple of years to "figure it out," then you should go to college, anyway. Or go play for the ABA if you don't want to go to college. I don't want to see millionaires learning on the job.

So what? I'd already said that. In my opinion, the only entity that has any say in whether high school kids should be allowed to play in the NBA is the NBA Players' Association ("If the NBA Players Union agrees to an age limit, that's good enough for me."). That seems close enough to me to "NBA says its the rule and thats that," and that was my first contribution to this particular discussion; AFAIC, I don't need a better reason to have my opinion. Coming out of high school, you should have the right to work; that does not mean that you should have the "right" to work for the top company in that industry, for whatever you feel you ought to be getting paid. As far as your comparison between high school busts and college busts, I don't disagree with that, and I don't feel that it disproves or particularly refutes what I said, because the two groups tend to be busts for different reasons. I paid attention to Cleaves throughout the time he spent in Sacramento, and while he is clearly not an NBA-level talent, here's something that I never heard about him: doesn't understand basic concepts about the game. Same for the Ed O'Bannons and Jeryl Sassers of the league. Like I said in my response to bob_barron, it's a matter of taste: I am personally much more forgiving of players who understand the fundamental concepts of basketball and simply don't have the talent to compete on the level they're playing at than I am of players that may be talented, but don't know what the hell they're doing. It's why, for example, I'd rather watch the Spurs than the Warriors. Sebastian Telfair has a boatload of talent... but he doesn't know how to play. Gerald Green may be more talented than, say, Joey Graham, but I'd take Graham ten times out of ten, because I know that Graham knows how to play. At least I know a kid that played 3-4 years of college can be coached.

Why though? Guys like Kobe, Garnett and LeBron have all shown that you can be really good coming into the NBA right out of high school. If a player is NBA ready, why don't you want to see them? That's why. Ripper says that, for every Gerald Green, there are ten guys that turn out to be good players. Not only do I strongly disagree with that, I go completely the other way: I say that, for every LeBron James, there are three Ndudi Ebis. For every Dwight Howard, there are five Robert Swifts. For every Kevin Garnett, there are six or seven Leon Smiths. I could do without that aggravation.

No, they don't, because contrary to popular opinion, the NBA doesn't have a monopoly on professional basketball. If their Collective Bargaining Agreement says you must be "x" years old to play for this organization, then you have to be "x" years old. What other leagues do is of little importance. They can play for PAOK, they can play for Euroleague... hell, the NBA doesn't even determine whether a guy can play professionally in the USA; they can play for the ABA or the CBA. But that doesn't mean that they're entitled to be able to play for the NBA. There seems to be some fallacious belief that because the NBA is the biggest dog, that they have to let you in, and it doesn't work like that, especially when a union is involved. Or, to apply Ripper's earlier example, you might be an excellent cartoonist/animator in high school. At 18, you can go to college; if you don't want to go to college, you can go into business for yourself or, you can send your portfolio off to a bunch of different studios and hope to get hired. But just because you have the right to get a job as an animator doesn't mean that you have a right to get a job at Dreamworks or Pixar. Hell, I'm pretty sure that you can't even walk into a job as a plumber or a carpenter at 18, unless you're part of a union. So why should the NBA Player's Union not be entitled to the same protection that's extended to other unions?

I only care about college basketball to the extent that I'll take it ten times out of ten over any non-basketball sport. But, relative to the NBA, I couldn't give a fuck less about college basketball. I'm not even going to get into it with you and Ripper over who's come out of high school and been a "good" player, as past discussions have shown that he and I have diametrically different standards for "good players" at the NBA level. I just don't want to see 18 year olds in the NBA as a matter of taste. Like I said before, just because these kids have a right to work and get paid doesn't mean they have a "right" to play in the NBA. I'm glad that the NBA Player Association voted to set an age limit, and not only do I hope they uphold that at the next CBA, I hope that they increase it. Again, let them go overseas if they're so desperate to get paid.

Contrary to my personal biases, I'm going to go with Memphis, if for no other reason than because it seems more authentic. Motown has a reputation of "manufacturing" hits, and giving their artists much less creative freedom. Uh... Spice Girls or Pussycat Dolls?

Actually, it was an NBA reference, but I keep forgetting that I'm the only one in the fed who likes basketball...

I've got to beg to differ, Edwin and godthedog; I want to like Off the Wall more, since I'd consider the first five tracks to be lottery picks. Unfortunately, it also has two tracks (I Can't Help It, Burn This Disco Out) that I think are awful, and one (Girlfriend) that I think is unlistenable. Whereas I can happily play through Thriller and never skip a track. I'd pick Purple Rain over Thriller, though.

... Talking about a joke dying on the table...

I have much love for the Reverend, but I was raised on Marvin Gaye. Although I think what puts Marvin over the top for me are his duets with Tammi Terrell. I'd take You, Ain't No Mountain High Enough, I Heard it Through the Grapevine, Got to Give it Up, What's Going On and Rockin' After Midnight over the collected works of Al Green. EDIT - I'll agree that Sexual Healing is overrated, but What's Going On?

I'm going to cheat and say McCartney post-Beatles, because I've actually heard some of that. I can only think of about four or five Beatles' songs off the top of my head, and the only one that I actually like is Help!... and I couldn't tell you who wrote that under penalty of death. This thread is culutrally biased.

Yeah, that looks like the standard form; almost exactly identical to the letter we get on the board where I do my (mod) time at. So it probably goes to all the mods here, too.

Wasn't Sonny Siaki a former X-Division Champion? Wasn't Joe? Why the hell can't Hernandez win it? He works well enough with smaller guys, doesn't he? I thought it had more to do with the style you work/can work than your size...

This resembles my feelings on the issue. Maybe these kids should not be getting told that they have to go to college for two years but, at the same time, right to work != right to play in the NBA. If the NBA Players Union agrees to an age limit, that's good enough for me. Let them play for Greece if they need money that bad; Lord knows it's not like they won't get paid.

Man... Caron Butler just shitted all over Kevin Martin. If you're out of area, don't worry; there's no way that doesn't make Sportscenter.

"Why does TSM hate women in sports?" he asks quasi-facetiously.

Here's a combo I don't recall being mentioned before: Taamo and Alan Clark. Or, since most of the writers seem to love having at least one guy on commentary that they can "tool" off of: Taamo and Johnny Dangerous. [isaiah Thomas] It's crazy enough that it just might work. [/isaiah Thomas]

Has Taamo sent in his retirement papers?

Huh. Well, that's interesting.

Monty Brown would be proud.

Wait, whats the joke here? Is it just that you somehow managed to wrangle up three words that happen to share the first letters of the acronym PBP? Or is it that you typed such wit in teal? I'm lost. Yes.

I just wanted to chime in to say that I loved me some psycho heel Doink. Matt Borne crushed with those facial expressions, and I loved heel Doink's music beyond all reason.

Earlier in the draft, I picked my favorite Stevie Wonder album. And now, I'm going to pick my second favorite: Stevie Wonder - Innervisions A highly acclaimed album, that was praised for both its outstanding music and it's poignant social commentary. Ranked by VH1 as the 31st greatest album of all time, and 23rd greatest by Rolling Stone. It won three Grammys in 1974: Best R&B Song (Living For the City), Best Engineered Non-Classical Recording, and Best Album. Oh yeah, and it also happens to have one of my Top-5 favorite songs of all time: Don't You Worry 'bout a Thing... Todo 'sta bien, chévere' -- you got that?