RavishingRickRudo

Kath saying "I don't want to be compared to anyone today" rather than "I want to stand out and be an individual, etc." is classic McPhee fuckin it up. The judges are hilarious with McPhee.

OH FUCK, Son, I am all about this number. Not the performance so much right now, but damn. Damn son.

Shit Elliot, get a lil more gritty and guttural. Oh shit, we almost had it at the end there. Very good performance, depending on if Kath blows the third, this could be a dogfight for the finals. Shit, that could have been the biggest backhanded thing Simon has said in this competition. He basically gave the audience the ok to not vote for Elliot by saying "Your mom will be proud".

I also think Elliot has a Ruben appeal to him, both vocally and aesthetically, so he might actually have a fanbase that isn't exactly evident or distinctive.

Kath is more marketable than Elliot. When it was Kath vs. Chris, they wanted Chris to win. Now it's different. I think it's going to be hard to define whether Katharine or Elliot will get the boot and I think the determining factor is if Elliot actually has a fanbase, or if people have been voting for him because he's been performing very well the past few weeks. If it is the later, then Katharine will get the votes because her OTR performance blew away Elliots. However, there is also the Chris fanbase. Will they vote for Kath after she beat out Chris, or will their vote be divided up by the two remaining guys? It's tough, and I don't think either is a given.

POW! When Taylor hit that first "to me", it's over, it's all over, give him the ten thousand dollars. That was near-perfection.

Yeah, that was good. She needs to sing a song bent over a table.

The Funk/Foley stuff seemed like Foley had an idea which was him and Funk cutting promos on each other with Funk calling Foley his son and Foley turning on him, and the thing was, Foley didn't know how to get there and half-assed the context and motivation.

Yeah, and since they normally have the guests listen to the idols practice and give tips and with Clive they just had him talking with the 3, it makes me think he didn't even hear them perform it until tonight.

I wanted to hear Taylor freak out with the chorus at the end. Taylors maybe best performance, and singing-wise it was better than I thought and started off great.

THE GUN~! THE GUN!~ SHOOT IT! BLOW IT! HOLSTER IT! I AM FREEEEEEEEEEAKING OUT!~

Yeah, I thought Elliot underwhelmed on the chorus, but everything else was very good (unfortunately, with a song like that, the chorus is the big time sell and he didn't blast it as he should have done - which was what the judges said. Katharine McPhee just can't help being Katharine McPhee. She'd read the phone book with runs. She is, like, the opposite of Elliot. And this arrangement is all over the place... or is that just Katharine? A mess. But I do like that dress. Katharine isn't great with the whole judge-interaction. Simon might get pissed if she over-sings Over The Rainbow, cause I think he gave her that song to bring her down a bit (to tame her, if you will).

I think people see him as a creative, entertaining fighter who sorta destroyed the Gracie family legacy and helped usher in a new era for fighting (partially by being PRIDES big star, partially by his fighting style). I don't know how many people looked at him as a top, top fighter like people saw, say, Noguiera. Sak wasn't tremendously dominating - he wasn't brutal. So it wasn't like he was a wrecking machine. He was a fun, goofy fighter, and that's a more universal, timeless, quality.

Not necessarily my favourites, but good matches. You know, stuff to check out. Some of those should still work, though I admittedly haven't checked them myself in a few months.

I agree on all of those guys other than Sak. He's been on such a downward spiral that I can't imagine people rejecting him any more or time hurting him. His story has pretty much been written, so I don't think future generations will see anything differently than us. Couture is pretty much definite. Given his record and his most notable wins, there will almost certainly be a backlash given those perspectives. If you look at Coutures career fights - vs. Belfort, vs. Liddell, vs. Rizzo, vs. Smith, vs. Randleman, vs. Ortiz - those will only be more devalued over time. Rizzo has been a total bust since he gave Randy fits, Randleman and Belfort too, Ortiz a lil less so, and the 2 losses to Liddell sorta taint his big win in 03. So what were, at the time, impressive wins, become less so looking back.

DL it in full, and see the last half. Seriously.

There was nothing in Titos fights against Forrest and Vitor that showed he wouldn't get tagged by Chuck again.

Nah, the stuff I wrote before removing was junk. Damn. I really wanted Taylor to sing some ..Memphis. Fucking Springsteen? That's something I could see being good despite me thinking it's going to be awful, but I think it's going to be awful and I can't see it being good. I tend to cover my bases well. And you have not lived until you have seen Clay perform Prince songs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?search=clay+p...e&v=8sxz77mdai0 I love humanity. We're all so damn human.

Clay sang Journey. Journey.

Chris Leben Vs Joe Doerksen http://www.megaupload.com/?d=16W5OL2N *Awesome, competitive, action-packed fight between two 185 pounders. Leben is a fringe top 10'er and Doerkson is competitive with just about everyone and a slick ground fighter.* Babalu Vs Shogun http://www.megaupload.com/?d=16JJ92C0 *From the IFC: Global Domination LHW tournament, Babalu had just went the distance with Trevor Prangley and Shogun beat Eric Wanderlei in the first round. Today, these are two top ten guys, possibly two top fivers. Babalu is the number 1 contender to Chuck Liddells LHW title, and Shogun won the GP last year. UFC 38 - Ian Freeman vs Frank Mir http://www.megaupload.com/?d=188VT9B3 *Frank Mir was a prospective heavyweight the UFC was hoping to groom and Freeman was the hometown underdog. Bushido7 Gomi Vs Azeredo http://www.megaupload.com/?d=16FS8VBQ *These two had 2 great fights in 2005, this one having one of the more brutal finishes you'd see. Matt Hughes vs Frank Trigg I:NEW http://rapidshare.de/files/1683543/Matt_Hu..._Trigg.wmv.html Matt Hughes vs Frank Trigg II: NEW http://rapidshare.de/files/2340894/Matt_Hu...hlight.wmv.html *Two great matches, especially when watching them back-to-back and seeing how the second fight plays off the first one. One of the top moments of 2005 happened in the second fight. Minotauro vs Bob Sapp: NEW http://rapidshare.de/files/2340635/minotau...do_ufc.wmv.html *I believe this was the FOTY in 2002, and solidified Nog into one of the greatest fighters of all time. Minotauro vs Sergei Kharitonov http://www.megaupload.com/?d=16SDGLZ4 *This is not necessarily essential viewing, but it's one of the better HW fights in the past few years. UFC 22 Only One Champ - Frank Shamrock vs. Tito Ortiz http://www.megaupload.com/?d=186UGALS *For a while this was considered thee greatest UFC fight of all time, and perhaps still holds that position. Story-wise, it's tremendous, as Tito had a history with the Lions Den and came in bigger and stronger than Frank, but Frank had more experience and a better strategy and better conditioning. Imanari vs Hansen http://rapidshare.de/files/3127167/Bushido...Hansen.WMV.html *Imanari has awesome leglocks and Hansen has great knees. I luv this one. 11)George St.Pierre Vs Jay Heiron (UFC 4Cool http://www.megaupload.com/?d=22VXRZFT *Watch GSP destroy Heiron. Listen to Joe Rogan try to ignore GSP's shitkicking and continue sucking Heirons cockle. 22)George St.Pierre Vs Matt Hughes (UFC 50) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=35EX7ZTQ *This was a fight for the vacated WW title. It was GSP's third fight in the UFC. 30)Fedor Emelianenko Vs Kevin Randleman (Pride HwGp04) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=30VOZWZ2 31)Fedor Emelianenko Vs Mark Coleman (Pride HwGp04) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=32VRVKV6 *Fedor is God. 35)Quinton Jackson Vs Shogun Rua (Pride MwGp05) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=22PBE5GN *Shoguns first fight in the MW GP of last year. Rampage had been a top 5 fighter at the time and Shogun wasn't even in the top ten. 47)Shogun Rua Vs Gono (Pride Bushido 2) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=321HHPNL *Shoguns first PRIDE fight. Gono is a very good stand up fighter, and Shogun is nuts. 49)Caol Uno Vs Joachim Hansen (K-1 Hero's 1) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=35X7KKJA *Many people had this as the FOTY last year, and last year was STACKED. 68)Bas Rutten Vs Frank Shamrock (King Of Pancrase) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=38GBDCT7 *An awesome fight between two legends in the sport. 102)Chuck Liddel Vs Vernon White (UFC 49) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=327VSP91 *This was one of my favourite fights from 2004, just a fun lil match. 107)B.J. Penn Vs Matt Hughes (UFC 46) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=32CQT3CD *BJ was moving up in weight and Hughes was an unstoppable champion. 110)Kazushi Sakuraba Vs Quinton Jackson (Pride 15) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=32JPD862 *Rampages first PRIDE fight and Saku was coming off a brutal loss to Wanderlei Silva. Two Words: Power. Bomb. 116)Vanderlei Silva Vs Yuki Kondo (Pride GP 2004 Finals) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=39WTJILT *If there is one thing Wanderlei Silva can do, it is destroy Japanese Fighters Who are Smaller than him. 117)Shogun Rua Vs Antonio Rogerio Nogueira.Pt.1 (Pride Cc MwGp05) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=35PQI5QA 118)Shogun Rua Vs Antonio Rogerio Nogueira.Pt.2 (Pride Cc MwGp05) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=41JBGLRA *From the quarter finals of last years MW GP, a FOTYC, very competitive, back-and-forth, action everywhere. Chute Boxe vs. Brazilian Top Team. 119)Antonio Rogerio Nogueira Vs Dan Henderson (Pride Te MwGp05) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=428M9YHT *Dan had beaten Rogerios brother before, though Minotauro was able to win the rematch. This was in the first round of the MW GP. 138)Randy Couture Vs Chuck Liddel 1 (UFC 43) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=39B1MONW *Randy had come off two straight losses in the HW division, while Chuck Liddell was building lots of momentum with wins over Babalu, Belfort, Randleman, etc. Tito was refusing to fight Chuck, so this fight was set up to crown an interim champion. The idea was Chuck beats Randy, Chuck has Titos belt, Chuck and Tito fight to unify. Well, Randy had another idea. 140)Fedor Emelianenko Vs Gary Goodrige (Pride MwGp2003) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=40WVGYYK 144)Fedor Emelianenko Vs Naoya Ogawa (Pride HwGp2004) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=43SJN6ZX 145)Fedor Vs Heath Herring (Pride 23) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=43EEWIGO *I <3 Fedor 146)Tito Ortiz Vs Vitor Belfort (UFC 51) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=434QB8GN *Ortiz and Belfort were supposed to fight at UFC 33 in UFC's first show in Vegas. Belfort pulled out citing injury, it took 31/2 years for them to get them in the ring together, with both guys trying to make their way back up the rankings. 148)Don Frye Vs Takayama (Pride 21) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=438YOQR0 *Ever see a hockey fight? Ever see a hockey fight, on CRACK? 151)Chuck Liddel Vs Renato Sobral (UFC 40) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=40JXQPMN *Putting this up just cause they're going to fight eachother within the next few months. 157)Vanderlei Silva Vs Mark Hunt (Pride Shockwave 2005) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=431UPFGP *Really good fight and a rare case of Silva being the smaller man. 158)David loiseau Vs Charles McCarthy (UFC 53) http://www.megaupload.com/?d=40JNGZGK *This is shown all the time on SPIKE, but just in case, spinning back kick, flying knee. Fedor Doc (parts 1,2,3) http://files.filefront.com/Fedor_Doc_1/;42...;/fileinfo.html http://files.filefront.com/Fedor_doc_2/;42...;/fileinfo.html http://files.filefront.com/fedor_prt_3/;42...;/fileinfo.html *It's a Japanese doc covering a Russian Fighter. But if U <3 Fedor, U will <3 to see him train ROCKY style. Sherk vs. GSP http://www.megaupload.com/?d=WW456GV2 Sean Sherk is one of the few fighters to take Matt Hughes the distance and give him a competitive fight in the octagon and came in with that as his only loss in over 40 fights. GSP fucks his shit up. Minotauro vs Crocop http://www.megaupload.com/?d=FYLAZHOW Kinda like Nog vs. Sapp, but with more kicks but the same amount of awesome. Minotauro vs Mark Coleman http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Q4SJ077G Minotauro vs Groodidge http://www.megaupload.com/pt/?d=YUA0KMAO *Two fights to show how good and dangerous Nog is on the ground. Coleman has said that Nog had the strongest grip of anyone he has ever met - Coleman is an olympic level wrestler, btw. Goodridge is an armwrestling champion and another strong motherfucker. Just to put things in perspective. Minotauro vs Fedor Pride25 (2003) 1 round http://www.megaupload.com/pt/?d=4YGIOU9U 2 round http://www.megaupload.com/pt/?d=MQEQDQ5B 3 round http://www.megaupload.com/pt/?d=GIDKX8YA *Those matches above with Nog? They show how awesome he is. How he is the best heavyweight in the world. Well, before this fight he was. I've seen this fight maybe more than any other, and it never bores me. Minotauro vs Fedor Pride GP 2004 http://www.megaupload.com/pt/?d=IJU6ZF3T *The rematch. Minotauro vs Enson Inoue http://rapidshare.de/files/4703268/Minotau...e_2002.wmv.html *Enson said he would retire if he lost. He also has a habit of never quitting. Watch his head turn purple. Minotauro vs Schilt: http://s8.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=34I9M72T4S7RY2AMHUV3K3HQN4 *Schilt looks like Ivan Drago. Minotauro vs Dan Henderson (2nd) http://www.megaupload.com/pt/?d=YCP0ECQ4 *Awesome fight. That's all.

Hogan/Andre was the first match that made me question my then-current views. Then Benoit/Angle, and then Taker/Angle. A gradual process, always evolving.

BUT, what makes wrestling unique is that the goal is to be popular. Music, Art, Theatre, etc. has different objectives. I go deeper into this in my blog ... http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...2&showentry=537 I would contend that Malenko/Benoit poorly worked that match because -instead of reacting to the crowd and changing up to be more appealing- they stuck with what they planned and the match failed. Who knows whether the crowd would have gotten more into it, but the fact is, they didn't even try to change it up. Stevie Richards and Tommy Dreamer went into a match where the crowd was dead and couldn't give a flying fuck about what they did and they ended up getting that crowd into it by stiffing each other with kendo stick shots. Benoit/Angle is the perfect example of two workers bring a dead crowd back to life. There are exceptions and I did mention that above, but I think those exceptions come after wrestlers have made different attempts to try and get the reluctant crowd back into it. MGQ's "rules" aren't useless, I think -however- in regards to sufficiency and relevance, they hold less weight than working the crowd (because that's the wrestlers' goals). The stuff MGQ lists in his standards, things like story and execution, are tools wrestlers use to work the crowd, so they are relevant, but only if they work the crowd or fail to. Andre/Hogan in ROH would be different because both Andre and Hogan were smart enough workers to know what would work for one audience may not work for another. That's why Hogan in Japan is different from Hogan in the states. Hogan would throw out things like chain wrestling and more technical stuff to a ROH audience. Whether the ROH audience would be receptive is another matter, but credit should go to Hogan for attempting to appeal to a different audience and adapting. ROH is an interesting matter and could warrant its own discussion in regards who is responsible for the environment which I despise so much.

Crowd heat is an indicator of the work done in the match. Something had to make the crowd hot, and the vast majority of the time, it's the wrestlers in the match. Sure there will be an exception to the rule, but for most part, it's the case that the crowd reacts to the match. Hogan/Andre started off with a hot crowd, and people will point and say "They had it easy, they could have done anything and the crowd would have reacted", which is just conjecture because it's very-well possible they could have killed the crowd if they performed poorly (which they didn't). If Hogan/Andre started off with a hot crowd and that crowd stayed the same or went down a bit in excitement, then the criticisms of the match in regards to pacing and moves would be valid because something had to have hurt the crowd and that reasonably could have been it. However, Andre/Hogan was able to work the crowd up into being MORE crazy, which is a reflection of good work and a good match. A "good" match with no crowd heat isn't a good match. It failed to do what a match is supposed to do. To me, if a match occured infront of no people -just two guys going through the motions leading to a pinfall- it, by definition, is not a wrestling match. The crowd is an integral element, otherwise it's just choreography.

I never said it was a very good match. It's not close to Misawa/Kobashi vs. Taue/Kawada. I don't think it is awful. I think the match was "good", I think it worked and accomplished everything they wanted to accomplish, I personally love the match and can and have watched it countless times because I thoroughly enjoy it. Does everyone have to like it? No. Does it deserve to be shit on? No. I think the two guys gave tremendous performances and they deserve credit for what they accomplished in that match. I think the way they varied their limited offense, the way Hogan sold, the way they built spots -these very simple spots- and were able to get so much out of them, I think they deserve soem credit for their work. I think they did probably the best job they could have done given each others' limitations, and the way they worked the crowd was very well done. I don't think it should written off as two guys who couldn't do a lot of moves and made for this awful match. I think, perspective-wise, that's looking at it the wrong way. If you watch this match and have a check-list by your side to tick off and because it didn't have this and this and this it was bad, then you shouldn't be watching this match, period.

Your whole argument is based around a fallacy. A lot of people thinking something is good, doesn't make it so. And regardless of that, I'm talking about the quality of the wrestling, bell to bell. Why should I care if the audience liked it? Why should anyone care? It's not fallacious because THE INTENT of the wrestlers is to make the audience like it, and it is obvious that the audience liked Hogan/Andre. They don't go out to have what you define as a "good wrestling match" yet you judge them using good wrestling match standards. That is unfair and unreasonable. You hold it against them that they used few holds, BUT IT WORKED, so how can you fault them for it? The "few holds" point is irrelevant in the context of the match. If the match failed to entertain the crowd, then you can say "the lack of holds hurt the match", but in this case and context, it clearly didn't. People have their own ideas of what good wrestling is. Some people don't care about Kurt Angle's shitty selling and match structure. So what am I going to do, force them to think it's important? It's only important when it's important. Kurt Angle has gotten by on what you call shitty selling and I can't think of a time when it severely hurt his matches and -in fact- it has more often than not helped him greatly. There is no need to force people to think something is important, usually if it's important then it's pretty recognizable because the live crowd doesn't react to it. You say the wrestlers' standards are different. Well, their standard is to make money. If they could make money holding an armbar for 20 minutes of a 20 minute match, they'd do it. Is that good wrestling? It would be successful wrestling, yes. To me, quality doesn't equal success and vice-versa. And that's pretty much the end of it. Good Wrestling and Successful Wrestling are one-in-the-same. I don't know what you call wrestling, but I don't think it is actually the same as professional wrestling. It's more akin to a really physical dance. My standards can apply to any sort of wrestling. Except "successful wrestling", it seems. Your movie analogy was just completely irrelevant. Looking at Schindler's List and not liking it because it wasn't funny would be akin to looking at Hogan-Andre and not liking it because it wasn't stiff and didn't have tons of nearfalls. Meaning someone is only a fan of a certain genre, and they don't think anything outside of it is good. Obviously, that isn't going on here. Obviously, you missed my point. My point wasn't about genres, it was about INTENT. Speilberg didn't set out to make a comedy, so faulting it by using a standard he didn't even intend on appealing to doesn't make sense. Two of the basic things I look for in a wrestling match (story/execution) are so general that any type of pro-wrestling can have them. But neither are absolute in being necessary. Story and Move Execution are but tools to accomplish one goal. That you don't consider that goal is a fundamental problem with how you evaluate wrestling. So my movie analogy becomes relevant in this regard - if the director wasn't looking to make people laugh, a criticism of "it wasn't funny" becomes moot.