It's not always a damn carry

[iggymcfly 0]

Oh, and if you're looking for a target, I think Angle's the new Flair, and I think he's a better wrestler than Benoit if you count brawling, pacing, and highspots.

Angle brawls better than Benoit? Watch Bash At The Beach 1996 vs. Kevin Sullivan.

 

Angle has better pacing than BENOIT?

 

Angle is the one who gets blown up and lost so he goes through his moveset.

 

Highspots?! what highspots does Angle do?

 

Benoit did top rope tombstone piledrivers and powerbombs in Japan!

 

 

There's no way Angle is better than Benoit,

I don't give a flying fuck what Benoit did in Japan or in WCW seven years ago. I'm talking about who the best wreslter is NOW. TODAY. You could go through the shit Flair did fifteen years ago, but that doesn't make him the best today.

 

Anyway, Angle does all kinds of sweet highspots. In addition to the suplex off the top rope, he's done an Angle Slam off the top rope and an just at Vengeance, he did an awesome Angle Slam through the announce table. Shit, anytime you suplex or give an Angle Slam to the Big Show, it's a high spot as far as I'm concerned. He doesn't do a signature high spot over and over, but he'll pull out something creative when necessary like the beautiful moonsault he did off the top of the cage that time.

 

And Angle certainly has better pacing than Benoit. Do you think Benoit could have held together a 3 on 1 handicap match to make the crowd suspend disbelief the whole way, and be fucking crazy for the finish? Of course not. Benoit can do a great job of developing a match when he has 20 minutes, and he can even do a pretty good job with a short match, but he can't touch Angle for pacing.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

But you're defining quality in relation to the story. Workrate is independant of the story. They may complement each other, but they are not one nor are they co-dependant.

[Guest Ray]

I don't give a flying fuck what Benoit did in Japan or in WCW seven years ago.

And that's the problem. That's why you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I'm talking about who the best wreslter is NOW. TODAY

And it's still BENOIT....NOW....TODAY.

 

You could go through the shit Flair did fifteen years ago, but that doesn't make him the best today.

The difference is Benoit can still do a lot of the things he did in WCW. He's still a top wrestler.

 

Anyway, Angle does all kinds of sweet highspots. In addition to the suplex off the top rope, he's done an Angle Slam off the top rope and an just at Vengeance, he did an awesome Angle Slam through the announce table.

And Benoit does a swandive headbutt...and Benoit could do all those things Angle does.

 

Shit, anytime you suplex or give an Angle Slam to the Big Show, it's a high spot as far as I'm concerned.

Oh hell, that's not a "highspot." I guess all those germans Benoit gave to A-Train were highspots too?

 

but he'll pull out something creative when necessary like the beautiful moonsault he did off the top of the cage that time.

Just like the swandive headbutt BENOIT did off the cage?

 

And Angle certainly has better pacing than Benoit.

Explain why he gets blown up, lost and resorts to throwing pointless suplexes then.

 

Benoit transitions between things much better.

 

Do you think Benoit could have held together a 3 on 1 handicap match to make the crowd suspend disbelief the whole way, and be fucking crazy for the finish?

Yes, without a doubt.

 

Of course not. Benoit can do a great job of developing a match when he has 20 minutes, and he can even do a pretty good job with a short match, but he can't touch Angle for pacing.

That's the most rediculous thing I've heard all week. Explain how his "pacing" is better.

 

 

THIS IS WHY WE CALL ANGLE OVERRATED. Because of people like you who think he's better than Benoit, based on a year of WWE work.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Anyway, Angle does all kinds of sweet highspots. In addition to the suplex off the top rope, he's done an Angle Slam off the top rope and an just at Vengeance, he did an awesome Angle Slam through the announce table.

 

Aren't they all just Angle Slams from different positions?

 

 

And Benoit is better than Angle, but Benoit has been in this business for years. Angle has been in the business two and a half years roughly. That can count for a hell of a lot.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Let's not forget this Benoit who doesn't do highspots hit a swandive headbutt from the top of the cage onto Jeff Jarrett in a pointless angle involving Jimmy Snuka and Zbyzko

[Guest BionicRedneck]

And Angle certainly has better pacing than Benoit

 

Horseshit.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Angle's not as good as Eddy Guerrero either, before that arguement starts.

[El Psycho Diablo 0]

For that matter, I don't think Benoit's better than Guerrero, either..but that's way off the subject.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

I agree with Diablo. The way I see it Eddie is the top guy in the WWE right now but I don't wnat to start a Benoit/Eddie debate to add to the Benoit/Angle debate.

[Guest Choken One]

Eddy-Benoit-Angle-Mysterio-Jericho

 

 

The Fab Five

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Eddy-Benoit-Angle-Mysterio-Jericho

 

 

The Fab Five

More like Fab Four. Jericho is much closer to the rest of the pack then he is to this group.

[Guest Ray]

And Angle certainly has better pacing than Benoit

 

Horseshit.

I love you, BionicRedneck, I really do.

 

Angle's not as good as Eddy Guerrero either, before that arguement starts.

I think we already did start that one....

 

 

 

Benoit or Guerrero you say?

 

At the moment, I'd say Guerrero easily. His matches are less repetitive than Benoit's.

 

All time however, there's no question.....Benoit > Guerrero.

[godthedog 0]

i think eddie & benoit are about the same. their smark stock seems to go back and forth, depending on who has more to work with at the time. but until we get a guerrero/angle feud, i don't think it's quite fair to judge either way.

[iggymcfly 0]

OK, I want all the Guerrero marks to explain this to me.

Angle and Benoit + Edge and Mysterio = One of the best matches of the year at No Mercy.

Angle and Benoit + Edge and Mysterio + Los Guerreros = A pretty good match, until Angle and Benoit are eliminated at which point the whole thing falls apart.

 

However, that obviously isn't enough too judge a worker. The real way I judge a worker is by how good their matches are.

 

Over the last year, Guerrero's had one **** match with Edge on Smackdown, and one with Benoit at Vengeance. Wow, pretty impressive, huh?

 

Meanwhile, Angle has had ****+ matches with Mysterio at Summerslam, with Benoit at Unforgiven, in a tag match at No Mercy, with Edge on Smackdown, with Benoit at the Rumble, with Brock at WM, and with Brock and Big Show at Vengeance.

 

So that's seven for Angle and two for Guerrero, even though Angle missed three whole months due to a neck injury. That right there is why I think Angle is better than Guerrero.

 

Oh, and I know that Angle's match with Edge on Smackdown originally included Guerrero and Benoit, but they were in it for such a short period of time that they really don't deserve to be given credit for it.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yeah, but Eddie has been having ****+ matches for a good decade now. You have to factor that in too (oh wait *looks at who he is talking to*, I guess that's not happening NOW).

 

Eddies tag matches with Team Angle get no love here? They had what, 4 matches? I'd say they were around the **** level.

 

Angle/Brock at Mania wasn't **** either.

[iggymcfly 0]

The tag matches weren't bad, but they were probably ***1/2 stars tops. Team Angle did a lot better work in their two matches with Kidman and Rey Rey than in their 27 matches with either permutation of Los Guerreros.

[iggymcfly 0]

Oh, and a decade ago, even five years ago, Angle hadn't even started training to become a wrestler yet. That just makes his excellence even more amazing.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

But Kurt hasn't taken the same bumps for a decade that Eddie has. Granted, Amateur wrestling is tough, but Pro Wrestling is an entirely different breed of hurt. The fact Eddie has taken so much punishment over the years and is in the top 3 of the company is a testiment to his abilities. And not only that, but he's still going at the same rate he was going at 10 years ago.

 

Yes, the Team Angle matches with FA's were really good, but that doesn't discount the quality of Eddie's matches with Team Angles either nor does it make it less impressive as Eddies efforts IN those matches were better than _anyones_ efforts in _any_ of the aforementioned tag matches.

[godthedog 0]

Over the last year, Guerrero's had one **** match with Edge on Smackdown, and one with Benoit at Vengeance. Wow, pretty impressive, huh?

actually, eddie's had, by most counts:

**** match with edge at unforgiven

**** match with benoit at vengeance

****+ match with edge on smackdown

**** 4-way match on smackdown

**** tag match on smackdown v. team angle

**** match with rob van dam at judgment day

****+ match with rob van dam on raw

 

eddie's match with mysterio on smackdown last year was also better than angle's match with him at summerslam.

[Guest Ray]

OK, I want all the Guerrero marks to explain this to me.

Angle and Benoit + Edge and Mysterio = One of the best matches of the year at No Mercy.

Angle and Benoit + Edge and Mysterio + Los Guerreros = A pretty good match, until Angle and Benoit are eliminated at which point the whole thing falls apart.

 

However, that obviously isn't enough too judge a worker. The real way I judge a worker is by how good their matches are.

Over the last year, Guerrero's had one **** match with Edge on Smackdown, and one with Benoit at Vengeance. Wow, pretty impressive, huh?

Says who? YOU?

 

You, the man who said "I don't give a fuck" about anything that happened outside of the last two years of WWE? You, the man who said Angle has better pacing than Benoit? The man who said Angle doing a suplex is a "highspot'' ?

 

As if we would trust your opinion on how many **** matches Eddie had.

 

Meanwhile, Angle has had ****+ matches with Mysterio at Summerslam,

That was NOT a **** match.

 

with Brock at WM,

That match was a mess. Definitely NOT ****.

 

So that's seven for Angle and two for Guerrero, even though Angle missed three whole months due to a neck injury. That right there is why I think Angle is better than Guerrero.

Read godthedog's post. Guerrero easily had more than two **** matches.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Angle has had ****+ matches with Mysterio at Summerslam

 

No chance.

 

with Edge on Smackdown

 

Nah!

 

with Brock at WM,

 

Pah!

 

and with Brock and Big Show at Vengeance.

 

If THAT is a **** match I will take a shit, piss on it, vomit on it, put it in a blender and eat it. It isn't, so I wont. It wasn't even a good match. Just because Meltz or Keith says something is good don't make it so. It was just spot-spot-spot, then Angle and Show were both blown up and the finish was shit.

 

Eddie Guerrero: Has wrestled well all over the world, can wrestle several different styles excellently and has had great matches in every company he has worked.

 

Kurt Angle: Has wrestled one style for his entire career (a style that is extremely flawed) and has had some very good matches.

 

Eddie's Best matches > Angle's best matches.

 

Eddie has far more range while cutting a promo and has more range portraying a character. Angle plays one character well: The Goof.

 

In other words, I don't see one thing that Angle has over Eddie. Not one.

 

Eddie Guerrero > Kurt Angle.

[KTID 0]

Benoit is better than Angle

 

Eddie Guerrero > Kurt Angle

 

 

Just two examples of statements that have been repeated for 6 PAGES!!!! stop arguing with this "WWE mark". He has admitted to have never seen wrestling outside of the WWE, and that he doesn't care about (probably doesn't even know about) anything older than two years. He is an example of the two things I hate most:

 

1) Those who think theres no such thing as wrestling outside WWE

 

2) Those who think a wrestler sucks because he was in WCW/ECW/Japan (apparantly, if he was a real wrestler he would have been in WWE, cause WWE IS WRESTLING, you see).

 

So, stop arguing with him, and stop repeating FACTS, like Benoit/Eddie/Austin > Angle

[Guest wildpegasus]

Guerrero>Angle but Angle may have Guerrero when going up against heavweights as Eddy's size seems to hamper him some here. Just look at Guerrero vs Booker and Lesnar compared to Angle vs Lesnar and Booker. Angle's matches were of better quality.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Eddie/Booker sucked, but that's cause _Booker_ couldn't keep pace with Eddie (as he couldn't with RVD) and since he has bad timing already, it really hurt the match.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

And Angle vs. Lesnar was near-crap. So really it's the lesser of two evils, and IIRC Eddie didn't get a very competitive match with Brock.

 

Of course, I expect different results come Summerslam, but untill then, the quality of both respective matches is questionable.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

This thread has like 20 different subjects going on right now, I'll just give my opinions on a few of them.

 

I, too, hate that some of us just assume a match is going to be a carry job because a smark darling is involved. Not everything with Benoit, Angle, and Bret are carry jobs.

 

Bret vs Bulldog WAS a carry job. Watch the match, Bret did everything.

 

A carry job is hard to define, but I think Ric Flair created the common carry job of bumping your ass off and making your opponent look good. HBK also perfected it. HBK and Flair really could carry a box of crackers to a 3 star match in their prime. If bumps can be used to define workrate, than me thinks Trish is better than half the Raw roster.

 

Carrying is not a term that should be thrown around so easily. I mean if we're going to say that someone got carried, than you gotta think not many people can do it.

 

Angle seems to be overrated, but remember HHH in late 2000-early 2001? The guy became the most overrated wrestler ever after his matches with Foley. Now even if HHH puts on a good match, some of us can't accept it.

 

Obviously the IWC has a big double standard filled bias that doesn't really get addressed much. Just read a whole Raw thread and see how everyone already has this pre-determined attitude. I'm not a smark, but I understand the term. Wrestling is entertainment for some, and for others, it's something to be overanalyzed. Some people try to enjoy the show, and others don't like it because their favorite wrestlers aren't getting pushed. Their favorite wrestlers are still getting paid, and still get to be on TV, but their not main eventing, so damn the whole show.

 

I never really bought the whole burying thing. Usually if a wrestler really proves to be so popular than he's pushed. Look at Eddie, once he started getting the pops the news popped up of him winning the title. HHH holds everybody down...ok. Booker T was not over enough to win the belt at Wrestlemania, niether was Kane, and RVD would of probably sunk the ratings. Speaking of which, if we're all about good wrestling and talent getting pushed, why is everybody on RVD's nuts? He's not a good wrestler at all. He's the biggest exception/double standard of the IWC, a wrestler that isn't great in the ring, but still gets the IWC support.

 

Ah well, just another day in the lives of TSM.

[syxx2001 0]

I dont think Hunter was overrated, he was just over. He isn't over in the OH TREY so there is the difference. His matches are boring, even his match with Taker at WM X8 was good but that was before his injury. His match during his face DX days were good before he became a so called student of the game and worked out every hour of the day or whatever.

 

And RVD is a good wrestler. He is a mixture of martial arts, high flying and bumping. Who else is a high flyer on RAW? Helms? Someone who is stuck in that gay ass comic book gimmick and doesn't wrestle past the 2nd match? RVD's match with Guererro was great and supposedly, so was his match with Jericho on some PPV. Triple H is the most over guy (or was) when he got the belt and thats scary because he barely gets pops. No one on RAW gets pops or heat, thats what makes the show boring. The crowd just sits on their ass and dont look entertained.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Michaels PERFECTED carrying? Are you nuts? Playing the ping-pong ball isn't "perfecting" anything... unless it's 'how to shorten your career', in that way, yes, HBK had that down to a science.

[iggymcfly 0]

I think the problem on here is that no one can read. I was counting matches in the last year. A match from Judgment Day last year would definitely be over a year ago. So would the ladder match on Raw. If I wanted to go back in time, I could count the Angle/Edge cage match the same week as the ladder match or the Edge/Angle match from JD.

 

And the fatal four way I counted as a match between Angle and Edge because Guerrero and Benoit were only in it for about five minutes, and Angle and Edge wrestled the bulk of the match by themselves.

 

Therefore, the only matches that I missed on the list were Edge vs. Eddie at Unforgiven (which I'll admit, I didn't see), and one of the Team Angle matches which was apparently worth **** to someone, even though I don't see how.

 

Then even if you throw out Brock/Angle at WM (although SK gave it **** and Bret Hart called it one of the best matches he's seen in years), Angle's still got 6 **** matches to Eddie's 3. And there's no way in hell I'm throwing out the match from Vengeance. That was the best Triple Threat the WWE's put on in a long time, if not ever.

[iggymcfly 0]

Oh, and I forgot that Angle dragged a good match out of Booker back in the day. That was a freakin miracle. Angle/Booker for the WCW Title, and Benoit/Booker on Raw the first night that Bischoff was there were the only decent matches Booker's had since he came in to the WWE.