Ten Commandments monument controversy

[Guest SP-1]

Well, wasn't that a bait? Probably, but of course, nobody will ever do anyting about it.

[Anakin Flair 0]

Right or wrong, there is a seperation of Church and State. I am not offended by the statue, I think it looks good. But it should not be displayed in a federal building. Put it in a church ot temple, but not a court house.

[Justice 0]

I would just like to know how this violates Separation of Church (not religion) and State?

It's a huge Judeo-Christian symbol in a goverment building. Clear enough?

Actually, that's flawed. Judeo-Christianity isn't a Church, it's two different large groups of religions. The 10 Commandments are far too broad-based to come under one religion, so your argument is flawed right there.

 

The fact is this, if a symbol just as big and just as expensive was made but was from a different religion the fundies would get pissed.

 

If built in Alabama? Yes, because Alabama's a predominantly Christian area. If built in Dearborn I hardly think they would care. They put up the Commandments because that connects far more with the majority of people down there rather than the Koran when it comes to a historical piece of moral law.

 

It's typical of these douche-bags who think their religion is superior and everyone else is a "heathen." Jerry Falwell and Alan Keyes have even come down here to defend the commandments.

 

Wow, you lack an argument so you go right to the "fundie" card. Not everyone fighting for this to stay in place is a religious fundamentalist. I'm Agnostic, but I see this as a trival thing that only appeals to a very small minority in the area that it effects and does nothing to help the majority of people. I don't see why, in a massively Christian area, something very broad-based and somewhat meaningful in the context is put in and a few people who are offended by it are automatically the ones who are right.

[Guest JMA]

There's a vast difference between religion and faith. Religion is a set of rules, sctrictly followed, usually with a supernatural purpose.

 

Faith is merely a hope in what is mostly unseen. Any Christian that's taken any time to study what they claim to believe will quickly say that religion does nothing to save you. Nothing. Faith and religion are not one and the same.

 

As for this whole controversy, we live in a country where majority tends to rule. This is sometimes bad for religious things and sometimes good. I find it fun that when it's bad for religious affairs, most people love it. But when it's good, everyone gets their panties in a bunch. We all have to roll with the majority punches, that's just the way it is.

 

I don't care whether the monument stays. Taking it out of a courthouse will not remove it from the hearts and minds of those who seek after God. From there, it can never be erased or removed.

As a former Christian, I am aware that you guys consider your beliefs faith rather than religion. But what about other people who have faith in different beliefs? I am, however, glad you don't care if the monument stays. People who have faith in their beliefs shouldn't care about a monument.

[Justice 0]

People who have faith in their beliefs shouldn't care about a monument.

Then why are you bitching about it so much?

[Guest JMA]

I am not offended by the statue, I think it looks good. But it should not be displayed in a federal building. Put it in a church ot temple, but not a court house.

I agree. There are plenty of churches that could take it. I just don't like it in a courthouse.

[Guest SP-1]

Then they have faith in another belief. I can have faith in my computer to do what it's supposed to do, I can have faith that a wind blowing in a sail will move a boat. Faith in and of itself can be placed in a rock sitting on the ground. Faith in it's simplest form is just faith. That's why God warned against idolatry - because faith was being placed in something not real and of no power or importance.

[Guest JMA]

Then why are you bitching about it so much?

I'm not bitching about it. And the only faith I have is in myself.

[Guest JMA]

That's why God warned against idolatry - because faith was being placed in something not real and of no power or importance.

Like the monument, perhaps?

[Guest SP-1]

Sure, but that's not a valid argument against it. Symbols have their place in the way people recognize and associate things. Christians associate the cross with Christ's act on it. It is a symbol of what happened there. A sentimental association. There's a difference between a monument or symbol, and an idol.

[Justice 0]

Then why are you bitching about it so much?

I'm not bitching about it. And the only faith I have is in myself.

Then explain to me what you are infact doing. You are complaining about Alabama putting up a monument that literally holds no meaning to you since you are, from what I'm lead to believe by the above statement, an Atheist. If you have strength in yourself (Like you are asking anyone arguing with you to do), then why in the hell do you care about the monument? Why do you care so much when we shouldn't?

[Guest JMA]

Then explain to me what you are infact doing. You are complaining about Alabama putting up a monument that literally holds no meaning to you since you are, from what I'm lead to believe by the above statement, an Atheist. If you have strength in yourself (Like you are asking anyone arguing with you to do), then why in the hell do you care about the monument? Why do you care so much when we shouldn't?

Who do you mean when you say "we" exactly? And I care because I feel it is a violation of church and state and it looks like (not saying it is) a goverment endorsement of religion. Bottom line: it should be in a church, not a courthouse. I simply don't believe it's fair to people of other faiths and those with no faith. I don't think it's very fair. And seeing as you can't put everyone's symbol in the courthouse, it should go.

[Justice 0]

Who do you mean when you say "we" exactly? And I care because I feel it is a violation of church and state and it looks like (not saying it is) a goverment endorsement of religion.

Where did I say "we"?

 

But again, it's just a monument. That was your argument against SP and it comes right back at you. Honestly, why should ANYONE care about this?

 

And there isn't an endorsment of a church in just using the 10 Commandment. The constitution says nothing of seperating basic, non-denominational religious references from the state, but only obvious endorsements and favoritism of one specific religion. There isn't a violation of the Constitution.

 

Bottom line: it should be in a church, not a courthouse.

 

Not necessarily. You really haven't given an argument why it would be wrong.

 

I simply don't believe it's fair to people of other faith and those with no faith. I don't think it's very fair. And seeing as you can't put everyone's symbol in the courthouse, it should go.

 

So it's fair to punish the majority in favor of the minority?

 

Why does every religious symbol need to be in a courthouse. Honestly, what meaning does the Koran hold to any Christians who would look upon it? A majority of people in Alabama are Christians, so almost all people who enter the courtroom can find some significance in it. They have the right to do this just as a very Muslim dominated area has the right to put up the Koran in the Rotunda of a courthouse. Hell, you could argue that at least the 10 Commandments is more non-denominational than the Koran because it doesn't even specifically endorse one major TYPE of Religion. And if you are an Atheist, what does it matter? They aren't forcing you to look at it. Just like God is only a word to be followed by damn, it doesn' t hold any real meaning in your life, so why do you care?

 

You say "If they put the Koran in there, the Fundies would bitch and whine". Of course they would. But if a majority of the people side with the Fundies, then it should go. There's no need to it to be where it is if it isn't popular with the people who have to deal with it everyday.

[Guest JMA]

Actually, that's flawed. Judeo-Christianity isn't a Church, it's two different large groups of religions. The 10 Commandments are far too broad-based to come under one religion, so your argument is flawed right there.

It appeals to both groups. It is a symbol for both respective religions.

 

If built in Alabama? Yes, because Alabama's a predominantly Christian area. If built in Dearborn I hardly think they would care. They put up the Commandments because that connects far more with the majority of people down there rather than the Koran when it comes to a historical piece of moral law.

Just because one religion is the majority doesn't give them the right to endorse it in a courthouse. I simply feel religious symbols should not be in goverment buildings. The goverment itself is a secular establishment for the good of ALL people.

 

Wow, you lack an argument so you go right to the "fundie" card. Not everyone fighting for this to stay in place is a religious fundamentalist. I'm Agnostic, but I see this as a trival thing that only appeals to a very small minority in the area that it effects and does nothing to help the majority of people. I don't see why, in a massively Christian area, something very broad-based and somewhat meaningful in the context is put in and a few people who are offended by it are automatically the ones who are right.

I don't lack an argument. If there was no arguement this situation would not have happened in the first place. And there ARE fundies fighting for this to stay. Jerry Falwell being one of many. I do NOT in any way see this as trvial. And, once again, I could care less about the Christian majority.

[Guest JMA]

Where did I say "we"?

You asked "why should we care?" I wanted to know who you meant when you said "we."

 

But again, it's just a monument. That was your argument against SP and it comes right back at you. Honestly, why should ANYONE care about this?

 

And there isn't an endorsment of a church in just using the 10 Commandment. The constitution says nothing of seperating basic, non-denominational religious references from the state, but only obvious endorsements and favoritism of one specific religion. There isn't a violation of the Constitution.

I care because they are trying to make "Christian" synonymous with "American." Chief Justice Roy Moore has publically admitted this is an endorsement of Christianity.

 

Not necessarily. You really haven't given an argument why it would be wrong.

Bullshit. It's wrong because it isn't fair to others and IS endorsement of religion.

 

So it's fair to punish the majority in favor of the minority?

 

Why does every religious symbol need to be in a courthouse. Honestly, what meaning does the Koran hold to any Christians who would look upon it? A majority of people in Alabama are Christians, so almost all people who enter the courtroom can find some significance in it. They have the right to do this just as a very Muslim dominated area has the right to put up the Koran in the Rotunda of a courthouse. Hell, you could argue that at least the 10 Commandments is more non-denominational than the Koran because it doesn't even specifically endorse one major TYPE of Religion. And if you are an Atheist, what does it matter? They aren't forcing you to look at it. Just like God is only a word to be followed by damn, it doesn' t hold any real meaning in your life, so why do you care?

 

You say "If they put the Koran in there, the Fundies would bitch and whine". Of course they would. But if a majority of the people side with the Fundies, then it should go. There's no need to it to be where it is if it isn't popular with the people who have to deal with it everyday.

I'm NOT in favor of the minority over the majority. I just want each to be represented equally. Just because there is a Christian majority doesn't mean they get to have there way it comes to matters of religion. And once again, I care because it is biased towards Christianity, a religion that should be a factor in a courthouse. They are forcing it on other people by putting it in there in the first place. It's like they're saying "Hey, have any religion you want, just as long as you know ours is better and will be represented more." And I can't stand for that.

[Justice 0]

Actually, that's flawed. Judeo-Christianity isn't a Church, it's two different large groups of religions. The 10 Commandments are far too broad-based to come under one religion, so your argument is flawed right there.

It appeals to both groups. It is a symbol for both respective religions.

But the thing is, they are massive sects of people and many varying religions. Even if it is a symbol of religion as a whole, how is it an endorsement?

 

Just because one religion is the majority doesn't give them the right to endorse it in a courthouse. I simply feel religious symbols should not be in goverment buildings. The goverment itself is a secular establishment for the good of ALL people.

 

Once again, if God is secular because it crosses across so many religions, how aren't the 10 Commandments?

 

I don't lack an argument. If there was no arguement this situation would not have happened in the first place. And there ARE fundies fighting for this to stay. Jerry Falwell being one of many. I do NOT in any way see this as trvial. And, once again, I could care less about the Christian majority.

 

Yes, yes you do. You lack any real basing in the Constitution for this since the 10 Commandments are too broad to endorse only one religion, but rather only represent a moral code.

 

So what if Fundies are fighting for this? If Jerry Fallwell was for Civil Right back in the 60's, would you join the KKK? Just saying "The Fundies are for it" doesn't mean it's automatically wrong and there aren't others who are down-to-Earth fighting for it. I could care less about what Jerry Fucking Fallwell feels on the situation. You totally missed my argument that even if the Fundies are fighting for this, there are many other who are fighting for this who are reasonable and THEY are the best representation of who is fighting for it.

 

Well, I DO see this as trivial. The monument is totally and lacks any endorsement of a religion in there. There shouldn't be a problem if you don't even believe in what it says.

 

Sorry, bud, but the majority DOES matter. Lemme ask you a question: Did you ever think the Koran wasn't put there because noone asked for it to be there? If no one wants it there, why the fuck do we need to have it?

[Guest JMA]

Yes, yes you do. You lack any real basing in the Constitution for this since the 10 Commandments are too broad to endorse only one religion, but rather only represent a moral code.

 

So what if Fundies are fighting for this? If Jerry Fallwell was for Civil Right back in the 60's, would you join the KKK? Just saying "The Fundies are for it" doesn't mean it's automatically wrong and there aren't others who are down-to-Earth fighting for it. I could care less about what Jerry Fucking Fallwell feels on the situation. You totally missed my argument that even if the Fundies are fighting for this, there are many other who are fighting for this who are reasonable and THEY are the best representation of who is fighting for it.

 

Well, I DO see this as trivial. The monument is totally and lacks any endorsement of a religion in there. There shouldn't be a problem if you don't even believe in what it says.

 

Sorry, bud, but the majority DOES matter. Lemme ask you a question: Did you ever think the Koran wasn't put there because noone asked for it to be there? If no one wants it there, why the fuck do we need to have it?

I don't believe the ten commandments are too broad for just one religion. Besides, he has clearly stated that the commandments are an endorsement of God and Christianity. They represent the moral code of Judeo-Christianity, two religions that are connected.

 

The Fundies are only out for themselves and their beliefs. They basically want the goverment to be a theocracy. I think that's a good reason to assume they don't have the best of intentions. And yes, I know that not everyone who wants it to stay is some religious fanatic. But their goal is still to look out for only themselves and their beliefs. But that is clearly obvious.

 

I do see it as endorsing religion. Moore admitting it DOES pretty much seals that debate. And there is a problem because he is doing someone, for his own benefit, to push his beliefs.

 

No one asked for the commandments to be put there either. He did it to further his own religious goals. I applaud Montgomery of their decision.

[Justice 0]

Where did I say "we"?

You asked "why should we care?" I wanted to know who you meant when you said "we."

Those who want it taken down. Why do you even care?

 

I care because they are trying to make "Christian" synonymous with "American." Chief Justice Roy Moore has publically admitted this is an endorsement of Christianity.

 

But that's his take on it. It doesn't everyone shares the same opinion.

 

And Christ, stop it with your little "Christianity is trying to turn me towards Jesus everywhere I go!" thing. How many people do you think are going to suddenly convert with this monument?

 

Bullshit. It's wrong because it isn't fair to others and IS endorsement of religion.

 

Where? Is it Methodist? Catholic? Baptist? Hasidic Jew? Which religion does it endorse? And just to say, Christianity is a conglomeration of religions.

 

I'm NOT in favor of the minority over the majority. I just want each to be represented equally.

 

Huh? Why should the Minority get the same power as the Majority?

 

  Just because there is a Christian majority doesn't mean they get to have there way it comes to matters of religion. And once again, I care because it is biased towards Christianity, a religion that should be a factor in a courthouse.

 

But the thing is this monument is basically non-denominational, so the Christians aren't the only ones who are getting this. To ask, who in the area complained of it? Or did the ACLU just come in and say it was wrong?

 

How the fuck is it a factor? Does it somehow change a judge's religion? In any case, the law decides for a judge anyways, not his religion. I don't see how that factors into a court case...

 

Wrong, because the 10 Commandments are basic tenants in Judaism as well.

 

They are forcing it on other people by putting it in there in the first place. It's like they're saying "Hey, have any religion you want, just as long as you know ours is better and will be represented more." And I can't stand for that.

 

How? Explain this to me. I don't remember them being forced to look at it, or believe it, or anything. Where's the forced readings of it by people who enter the Courthouse?

 

And which religion? The 10 Commandments aren't specifically for any religion, they are shared across a few major groups. Just because you find it to be offensive because you theorize to be a Christian plot to make themselves look better doesn't mean it's suddenly a symbol of Christian power.

[Guest JMA]

This "back and forth" thing is getting really old. So, I'm just going to explain my beliefs on the subject.

 

I believe in strict separation of church and state. I do not think there should be any symbols or monuments in goverment buildings that present any kind of religious message. I believe the goverment should be completely secular, and not pander to the religious majority. Because, quite frankly, in matters of religion the majority means NOTHING.

[Justice 0]

I don't believe the ten commandments are too broad for just one religion. Besides, he has clearly stated that the commandments are an endorsement of God and Christianity. They represent the moral code of Judeo-Christianity, two religions that are connected.

But, you see, it doesn't MATTER what you think. The simple fact that they lack a strong endorsement of any one religion (Catholic, Hasidic Jew, etc...) makes it above an argument under the Constitution.

 

The Fundies are only out for themselves and their beliefs. They basically want the goverment to be a theocracy.

 

Nothing to do with the argument. Carrying on...

 

think that's a good reason to assume they don't have the best of intentions.

 

Are you a moron or something? WAKE UP! Do you realize that even if the Fundies (A small minority themselves) support this, that doesn't mean anything in whole scheme of things? Just because they get one thing their way doesn't mean I'm gonna wake up tomorow and have to put on a cross before going to Bible study all of a sudden. To think that this will somehow result in a Theocracy is fucking idiotic.

 

And yes, I know that not everyone who wants it to stay is some religious fanatic. But their goal is still to look out for only themselves and their beliefs. But that is clearly obvious.

 

I'm sorry, but everyone who wants this to stay are in it for themselves, yet you are suddenly the defender of the people? I'm sorry, but that comment makes no sense. So if I'm a decent man who wants the thing to say, I'm in it for myself (because this is clearly obvious). But you, on the other hand, are somehow fighting this for other downtrodden people? What?

 

Okay, I'll explain this a little better. Decent, good people want this to say. To judge the people by simply saying "The Fundies are behind it, so it's wrong" is not correct in any way, because the Fundies only represent a small but very vocal minority here.

 

I do see it as endorsing religion. Moore admitting it DOES pretty much seals that debate. And there is a problem because he is doing someone, for his own benefit, to push his beliefs.

 

And that's what he gets out of it. Does that mean everyone will get the same feeling out of it? Remember, Moore isn't the only one fighting here.

 

No one asked for the commandments to be put there either. He did it to further his own religious goals. I applaud Montgomery of their decision.

 

It was there before anyways, and the ones who wanted to take it down were the ACLU, not town members or anyone who had to deal with it. I see THAT as more of pushing beliefs on someone than anything else here.

 

I believe in strict separation of church and state. I do not think there should be any symbols or monuments in goverment buildings that present any kind of religious message. I believe the goverment should be completely secular, and not pander to the religious majority. Because, quite frankly, in matters of religion the majority means NOTHING.

 

Any kind of Religious meaning? Are you serious? Do you also believe that "In God We Trust" should be taken off dollar bills?

 

Pandering to the religious majority? The Majority is the Majority, no matter what their religion. The Minority is allowed to voice their opinion with impunity, but just because they are they are the Minority means they must be pandered. You have to please the largest amount of people, not the smallest. You just have to protect everyone's right while doing so.

 

Indeed, it was getting tiring. I'm probably not going to respond to this thread again (Oi, I get way too into arguments...)

[Justice 0]

Okay, I'm gonna get my beliefs down as well right now, because after all this arguing I'm kinda cooling down (I'm more moderate than you think I am, but when push comes to shove I get more and more extreme to whatever side I'm on...).

 

Generally, I don't see this as a massive problem. This isn't something being forced upon people, and this, while not appealing to everyone, appeals to an utterly massive majority of people since the 10 Commandments cross many many different religions. While a few people may be offended, I don't see this as a problem because while the minority has a right to voice it's opinion, it doesn't have the right always get it's way because it is the minority.

 

In my opinion, if it's something that is very non-denominational and if it isn't being forced upon someone (Which is why I'm against school-sponsored prayer at Football games), it's okay. And yes, I find a difference between a monument and hundreds of people around me saying a prayer because that's far more of a pressure than some piece of granite. And that's that for me.

[Styles 0]

Just to throw in my 2 cents: "I don't really give a damn".

 

Seriously though, if this statue means so much to the majority of people there, then just let it stay. You can't honestly say anyone is being hurt by it. In this case especially it's a few loudmouth atheists and the leeching ACLU trying to start shit in a community that dares share different views then them.

Im not a religious person at all, but I have no problem with the statue.

Edited August 23, 2003 by Slapnuts00

[Firestarter 0]

Given that it's absolutely illegal to enforce the First Commandment under any and all circumstances, I do.

[Styles 0]

Given that it's absolutely illegal to enforce the First Commandment under any and all circumstances, I do.

I can't believe I'm actually starting a discussion with you knowing it will end with me being ripped to shreds, especially over semantics, but nothing is being "enforced" it's a statue, it's a symbol. Nothing more.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Would you agree to that, given that the 1st Commandment was removed?

If the first commandment was removed, I wouldn't mind personally though I'm sure others would.

 

As a general rule though, I like to keep Jesus away from the feds. He's a good guy and stuff, teaches some nice rules, but he shouldn't be representin' in the government.

 

As for the meaning of legal history, he could have used something like the Magna Carta instead of something from the Bible. I still think he's just being a fundie, he's been an activist in flagrantly putting God back in everyone's face for a while now.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

And yes, the Commandments could be considered a legal document of historical significance because it shows that the law is basically the moral code of society, and that's it at it's bare bones.

Unless you can go into the deserts and find the 10 commandment tablets, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one there because you don't even know if they were ever even made. The only way we know that the 10 commandments even exist is through the Bible, a religious text adhering to ONE religion.

 

The Bible could tell me that the grass is green but I'm not going to believe it until I go outside and check.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

We all have to roll with the majority punches, that's just the way it is.

How fucking lame. If that was the attitude we took with our country then only white men could vote today.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

And if you are an Atheist, what does it matter?

Because if I had my ass hauled into that courtroom, I feel like I am basically being told that my whole belief regarding the order of the universe is against some sort of code being held by the court.

 

And let's not forget there's religious-based cases. Like the driver's license woman wanted to get a photo with a veil over her face. I'm sure there's a lot less stupid cases regarding religion than that one, but that shitty example is just what comes to mind since it's recent. Do you think she or the people from any example you want to bring up would get an equally fair trial from this guy as she would another court? I doubt it.

 

 

But, we can rest somewhat easy, as this shithead got punked out of position:

 

MONTGOMERY, Ala.  — Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore, who has defied a federal court order to remove a Ten Commandments monument from the rotunda of the state's Judicial Building, was suspended Friday by a judicial ethics panel.

 

A federal judge had decided the 5,300-pound granite marker violated the Constitution's ban on government promotion of a religious doctrine.

 

Moore was automatically suspended with pay when the nine-member Judicial Inquiry Commission referred the ethics complaint against him to the Court of the Judiciary, which holds trial-like proceedings and can discipline and remove judges.

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

The original article fails to mention that the monument wasn't in the Judicial Building prior to Moore's election, so it's not like the monument has been there for a long time. It was put in place 2 years ago.

[Justice 0]

Unless you can go into the deserts and find the 10 commandment tablets, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that one there because you don't even know if they were ever even made. The only way we know that the 10 commandments even exist is through the Bible, a religious text adhering to ONE religion.

 

The Bible could tell me that the grass is green but I'm not going to believe it until I go outside and check.

Wrong. Even if there aren't any tablets, the idea of them easily qualifies as history. Someone had to at least think them up, and the idea behind them has lasted over two millienia. Not all history is physical, JotW. Codes and such like this can be considered historical.

 

Secondly, most every breakoff of Christianity and Judaism mentions them in some way, shape, or form. It's not just a text for ONE religion, it's one text for MANY.

 

Because if I had my ass hauled into that courtroom, I feel like I am basically being told that my whole belief regarding the order of the universe is against some sort of code being held by the court.

 

Why? I'm sorry, but I just don't see this. He has the 10 Commandments on the thing. They don't mean anything to you then, why should they suddenly strike meaning with you now? And just to make a note, one would think an Atheist living in the Deep South like this would have slightly thicker skin ...

 

But in seriousness, I don't see how it is being forced upon you. You don't have to even regard it when you go in, let alone subscribe to they beliefs behind it.

 

And let's not forget there's religious-based cases. Like the driver's license woman wanted to get a photo with a veil over her face. I'm sure there's a lot less stupid cases regarding religion than that one, but that shitty example is just what comes to mind since it's recent. Do you think she or the people from any example you want to bring up would get an equally fair trial from this guy as she would another court? I doubt it.

 

And that's the fault of the monument in some way? You are faulting an inanimate object for the biases of a legal official. If the monument had been there with a fair judge, would it matter anyways? I don't see how having the 10 Commandments could possibly effect the decisions of a judge.