Trish starts to use Austin's moves

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

So what exactly is the statute of limitations on this, cause I would have thought less-than-a-year would be ok to bring up in terms of evidence in showing that the women get way too much television time that could have gone to better (or actual) wrestlers. But it seems like only things in a 3 month period are valid here... Excuse me while I roll my eyes. (What do you consider "quite a while")

 

Torries "month long feud" with Sable then transitioned into another "month long feud" between Sable and Steph. And inbetween all of this we had craptacular Nidia vs. Torrie matches. What does all this mean? Nothing. How much money did this make? None. What's the point of it? I have no idea. But hey, they got more time than the cruiserweight division who'd at least give entertaining matches, but who cares?? RIGHT?

 

Wrestlemania 19 (biggest show of the year)

-WWE Cruiserweight Champ Matt Hardy pinned Rey Mysterio (5:39)

-Trish Stratus beat Victoria and Jazz (7:17) in a "triple threat" match to win the WWE Women's Title when she pinned Victoria.

 

Judgement Day:

-Torrie Wilson beat Sable in a "bikini contest."

-WWE Women's Champ Jazz beat Trish Stratus, Jacquelyn, & Victoria (4:48) in a "fatal four-way" match when she pinned Jacqueline.

-Amount of Cruiserweight matches = 0

 

But Womens matches don't effect cruiserweight matches silly!

 

I will "take into consideration" who are in these matches... WWE wrestlers. I don't care if they're women or men, if they suck they suck. WWE is the big leagues, not amateur night. At this level I want to see the top performers in the industry, because this is the top of the industry. Believe me, that is taken into consideration when WWE womens matches are on.

 

*I* can wrestle a match better than the best Jazz/Trish match. Hell, I can do a one-man show doing the Jazz/Trish match better than Jazz and Trish.

 

"I'm the bitch baby! The bitch is back!"

 

*does a scoop slam motion*

 

"The bitch is back baby!"

 

*lays on the canvas biting teeth REAL hard and slowly gets up and throws crappy forearm and then does an irish whip motion.. continues to bite teeth and then motions a hip toss and flings back hair and points to the crowd*

 

...hell, this is much better...

 

When matches get so bad you just shouldn't even rank them. They all are below the "shit" line and are all equal under said line. Besides, it's very rare that the best match on Raw is a womens match - this is just something dolts say when a womens matches doesn't have a botched spot and they do one or two overly contrived moves and have a competant finish. That, and them "considering who is involved", get's the matches overrated and overblown.

[Guest Retro Rob]

What was I even thinking getting into this with you in the first place?

 

You know what? The women's division is what is wrong with the WWE. Damn them for having a match that ran two minutes longer than the Cruiserweight match. It's disgusting that Sable and Stephanie were thrown into the Vince-Gowen feud and had two backstage segments devoted to them. And those matches on Raw.... Downright horrible. They all suck. I'm sure you could work a better match with all your stiff MMA shit and your expertise selling. Why even bother having the women's division on Raw, especially since such great talent like Rodney Mack and Garrison Cade aren't slotted on to the show every week. Or since the other matches and promos on Raw deserve oh so much more time than they are already given. Kane needs at least five more minutes to properly work Shane McMahon's testicles over.

 

Thank you RRR for opening my eyes to the evil force that is the WWE women's division. This exchange has really put a lot in perspective for me.

[cmclennan 0]

Let's get one thing straight: WWE women ALL SUCK. I don't care if they're "Trying" to be good, or if someone thinks they're "Better than the men", because people who say those sort of things obviously don't understand what good wrestling is. I'm begging you, get some Japanese video tapes, or download some online, because the women in japan can actually wretle. Well. The women in Japan are better than 75% or possibly more of the men in North America.

[MrRant 0]

I'm begging you, get some Japanese video tapes, or download some online, because the women in japan can actually wretle. Well. The women in Japan are better than 75% or possibly more of the men in North America.

Well of course the Japanese can wretle better than the WWE women. The WWE women are trying to wrestle.

[Guest Coffey]

What was I even thinking getting into this with you in the first place?

 

You know what?  The women's division is what is wrong with the WWE.  Damn them for having a match that ran two minutes longer than the Cruiserweight match.  It's disgusting that Sable and Stephanie were thrown into the Vince-Gowen feud and had two backstage segments devoted to them.  And those matches on Raw.... Downright horrible.  They all suck.  I'm sure you could work a better match with all your stiff MMA shit and your expertise selling.  Why even bother having the women's division on Raw, especially since such great talent like Rodney Mack and Garrison Cade aren't slotted on to the show every week.  Or since the other matches and promos on Raw deserve oh so much more time than they are already given.  Kane needs at least five more minutes to properly work Shane McMahon's testicles over.

 

Thank you RRR for opening my eyes to the evil force that is the WWE women's division.  This exchange has really put a lot in perspective for me.

Yeah, take the easy way out, but RRR is right. The women of the WWE are bad. All of them. Sure, Molly & Jazz are better than Gail & Trish, but Jazz, Molly, Gail & Trish are all worse than Shannon Moore...whom is the lowest cruiserweight I can think of.

 

Face it, they get TV time over other more deserving wrestlers because they have tits and that's what the rednecks want to watch.

 

Except for RRR saying he could put on a better match than Trish & Jazz by himself, all of his points were valid. Yes, women's wrestling isn't the only problem, but it is a problem. Just like the McMahons is a problem...which is the comeback you tried to use. Saying that Kane Vs. Shane needed five more minutes.

Edited September 2, 2003 by Mr. Jag0

[Guest Retro Rob]

Yeah, take the easy way out, but RRR is right.

 

Easy way out? I guess you can call it that, but I just don't like doing this back and forth nonsense considering I also have meaningful things to take care of.

 

The women of the WWE are bad. All of them. Sure, Molly & Jazz are better than Gail & Trish, but Jazz, Molly, Gail & Trish are all worse than Shannon Moore...whom is the lowest cruiserweight I can think of.

 

Who are you? Einstein? Thanks for that astute observation that has no bearing what so ever on this topic since those women are ALMOST never on the same shows as Shannon Moore.

 

Face it, they get TV time over other more deserving wrestlers because they have tits and that's what the rednecks want to watch.

 

Oh. I didn't know most wrestling fans were rednecks. Secondly, women are a part of society as well and thus should be represented somehow on every television program.

 

Except for RRR saying he could put on a better match than Trish & Jazz by himself, all of his points were valid. Yes, women's wrestling isn't the only problem, but it is a problem. Just like the McMahons is a problem...which is the comeback you tried to use. Saying that Kane Vs. Shane needed five more minutes.

 

Sarcasm. Look it up.

[Guest Coffey]

Easy way out?  I guess you can call it that, but I just don't like doing this back and forth nonsense considering I also have meaningful things to take care of.

 

I will call it that, because that's exactly what it was. If you don't like back and forth comments on a message forum then you probably shouldn't have made such bold statements in your previous replies. Obviously you knew that your posts would have a reaction when you contradict the people posting before you.

 

Who are you?  Einstein?  Thanks for that astute observation that has no bearing what so ever on this topic since those women are ALMOST never on the same shows as Shannon Moore.

 

First of all, that was flame baiting. You blantantly tried to insult me because I happen to agree with someone else over you.

 

How does it not have any bearing? RRR made the arguement that the worst cruisers are better than the best wwe women. I was just trying to further back that up. Being on the same show doesn't have anything to do with it. I'm talking about wrestling talent. If Moore being on the Smackdown brand means that much to you, substitute his name with Hurricane, Tommy Dreamer, Steven Richards, Val Venis or anyone else. You're grabbing for straws.

 

I'm assuming you said this because the women division is on Raw and the cruisers are on Smackdown. That doesn't mean that Smackdown doesn't have women's matches. When was the last Shannon Moore match? Ultimo Dragon? Ok, when was the last Stephanie McMahon match? Sable?

 

Oh.  I didn't know most wrestling fans were rednecks.  Secondly, women are a part of society as well and thus should be represented somehow on every television program

 

Obviously I was talking about one of the negative stereotypes that wrestling fans have to listen to. You, obviously, already knew that. I admit that I shouldn't have made that tired stereotype. You're not making any valid arguements however. We are trying to say that there are better wrestlers who could utilize the wrestling time better than the WWE women. You fire back with "they aren't on the same show" and talk of sexual equality. Like RRR said, it shouldn't be amateur night at the WWE. It is the top dog as far as professional wrestling in the United States is concerned. If the men are better than the women, so be it. It doesn't have anything to do with sex, it has to do with individual talent.

 

The women can be on the shows. However, if they aren't good in the ring, don't put them in the ring. The can do commentary, or just be valets. Hell, look at Terri. She is on every Raw, but you don't see her out in the ring botching spots. Same goes for the men. If they suck in the ring, don't book them in matches.

 

Sarcasm.  Look it up.

 

Yes, I know RRR was being sarcastic. If you're talking about your post being sarcastic, well I'm sorry but it didn't read that way. It sounded like you was trying to say that the women matches are better than having to sit through the McMahon drama. I somewhat agree, but my point is that they are both WWE problems right now. This shouldn't be a case of putting the problems areas in order of priority...they should eliminate all the problems at the same time. The women matches are bad. The aren't as good at wrestling as some of the other wrestlers who don't get the time to shine. Seeing as this is supposed to be a wrestling show, the time should be dedicated to the wrestlers. Not to the people who are "trying hard" or "improving."

Edited September 2, 2003 by Mr. Jag0

[Ultra Violence 0]

I may get heavily flamed for this but I think the WWE should scrap the women's title, fire all the non eye candy female wrestlers due to "creative having nothing for them" and use the remaining females as valets etc.

[KTID 0]

Couldn't agree more, Mada!

[Ultra Violence 0]

i'm not sexist, but the women's division sucks ass

[KTID 0]

Still completely agree.

[Guest Ascalon]

Not to sound like a dick, but that is one helluva logical fallacy. The fact that one wrestler uses another wrestler's moves doesn't constitute "suckitude". I think she blows spots more frequently cause shes tired or winded.

 

Another thing that actually angers me is comparing apples and oranges. Or in this case, styles of wrestling. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Japanese style of wrestling. The psychology and technical skill is awesome. But to compare it to Texas Catch-can??? wrestling is like elephants and lions. I think you would be better off saying, "The technical prowess of the Japanese is better than the United States." Esepcially since the US style relys more on the promo and charisma of the character.

 

Feel free to reply. And please keep it intelligent.

 

i'm not sexist, but the women's division sucks ass

 

Yup...

[KTID 0]

Not to sound like a dick, but that is one helluva logical fallacy. The fact that one wrestler uses another wrestler's moves doesn't constitute "suckitude". I think she blows spots more frequently cause shes tired or winded.

 

...or is a bad wrestler.

 

 

Another thing that actually angers me is comparing apples and oranges. Or in this case, styles of wrestling. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Japanese style of wrestling. The psychology and technical skill is awesome. But to compare it to Texas Catch-can??? wrestling is like elephants and lions. I think you would be better off saying, "The technical prowess of the Japanese is better than the United States." Esepcially since the US style relys more on the promo and charisma of the character.

 

huh?!

[Guest Coffey]

He's saying that the workers work differently in different parts of the world. It makes sense, and he is correct.

 

Saying that someone in Japan is a better technical wrestler than someone in the WWE is like comparing apples to oranges. Just like trying to say that someone in the WWE is more charismatic than someone in Japan.

 

The Japanese base their wrestling events on wrestling talent. The WWE base their events on storyline advancement and character build-up. Whereas the Japanese will tell a story in the ring, the wrestlers of the WWE will tell a story on the microphone.

 

You can't compare someone wrestling mexican style wrestling in AAA to someone wrestling WWE style. Just like you can't compare the stiff style of NOAH to the traditional style of NWA of old.

 

Of course, there is an exception to every rule.

 

Read the quote in my signature...

[KTID 0]

Saying that someone in Japan is a better technical wrestler than someone in the WWE is like comparing apples to oranges.

 

No its not. Benoit, Eddie, Rey etc are better than many in Japan. It isn't hard to compare.

[Guest Coffey]

Of course, there is an exception to every rule.

Any questions?

[AndrewTS 0]

Just to chime in on this thread, everyone but possibly Jazz and Molly are terrible wrestlers, and even Jazz and Molly aren't as good as a mediocre joshi star. Victoria could be good, but training under the WWE umbrella doesn't usually lead to you becoming a good wrestler. If you can't have a division where there are more than two competent performers, I fail to see why you should have that division at all.

 

Since the Women's Division is mainly the showcase for Trish, I also don't care much for it.

 

The Raw roster does suck, but underlooked guys like Dreamer should be getting Raw time way before the women. If you have to employ women wrestlers, keep a couple that are capable and once in a while have a mixed tag--the mixed tag on Heat last time was fun, and even included some neat double-teaming.

 

This kinda went offtopic natch, but as for the original topic--I don't give a crap what Trish is doing, but RRR's mention of the "clenched teeth/look constipated" selling cracked me up. Hell, even Molly does it and it looks stupid.

[Guest deadbeater]

if the Japanese wrestlers were so good, then why Hulk Hogan and Bob Sapp the most over stars over there?

 

Also, in Japan, joshi don't even step into the ring in front of people until she has 2-3 years of training day in and day out. There is not that much patience in the US among the male wrestlers. Women in NA are lucky to have one-tenth of that extensive training. Victoria got thrown through a table on national TV three months into training.

 

Also, the NA women never get to fight 50 minute epics the joshi do day in and out, good or bad. Do it often, of course you look good. Like Mildred Burke before them, the NA women have to get wrestling action any way they can. it is still so today in North America.

[Guest Coffey]

So...you're saying that you agree?

 

Hulk Hogan is over in Japan for the same reason that he is over in Canada. The fans respect what his name has meant to the business. He is a big star.

 

Sapp is over cause he knocks people the fuck out.

[CanadianChick 0]

Interesting thread. First of all, I agree with RRR with the 'amature night' comment. If you suck, you shouldn't be on TV. But I don't think that all the women are bad wrestlers. I think that Molly, Jazz and Victoria are all pretty good wrestlers. I know that's only three, but still, there are women wrestlers that I would consider good. Trish if decent too, but, as much as I liked seeing her improving, I don't think that should've happened. If they were serious about having her as a wrestler, she should have got sent down to OVW.

 

Another thing: if we are going to weed out the crappy wrestlers, do it for both genders. I know that would mean about 75% of Raw wrestlers gone, but oh well. And even if there is a bad women's match, I wouldn't complain about it if there is still other non-wrestling shit going on. I'd take a women's match over a Austin interview any day, thank you. Just my opinion though.

[AndrewTS 0]

Also, in Japan, joshi don't even step into the ring in front of people until she has 2-3 years of training day in and day out. There is not that much patience in the US among the male wrestlers. Women in NA are lucky to have one-tenth of that extensive training. Victoria got thrown through a table on national TV three months into training.

 

Hmm...I knew they were trained more, but I didn't realize how much more.

 

Plus HOW they are trained has much to do with it too. In NA, the women seem to be treated more delicately, and end up wrestling slow and loose. Watch a "Diva" clothesline, whether from Molly or Ivory or Trish and look like crappy it looks. Joshi don't sweat wrestling stiff, it's expected.

 

The reason the women in the US don't get trained as much is obvious--it doesn't seem a worthwhile investment. I'm sure there aren't an extremely large number of young women with the cash to pay for 2-3 extensive years of quality training. I'm sure any women wrestling for independents get peanuts, and they probably expect that they have to be in excellent shape and be pretty to be in WWE. Likewise, WWE doesn't see training their women properly and thoroughly as a worthwhile investment, because they don't care about the division. So they set a little aside to train the women a little bit, but they aren't interested in producing quality wrestlers, just wrestlers who can do the basics (sometimes not even that).

 

Until women's wrestling is considered a bankable concept, it's always going to be treated as a novelty act. Since almost all stateside women's matches feature crowds who don't give a shit or cheering for "puppies"--it isn't going to happen, so it will continue to suck.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Besides, at one point in time Sable and Lita were probably the top 3/5 faces in the company (and to a lesser extent, Chyna) and they could do maybe 3 moves. It's amazing what low expectations can do.

[AndrewTS 0]

Besides, at one point in time Sable and Lita were probably the top 3/5 faces in the company (and to a lesser extent, Chyna) and they could do maybe 3 moves.  It's amazing what low expectations can do.

Sable was over back when the women's division was 10 times as pathetic as now. Then again, she still gets cheers now, so go figure.

 

Lita does spots, has boobs, and wears a visible thong, so of course she got pops.

 

Chyna, though? When she split from HHH I remember her getting pushed huge, but fans crapped on her on her own. She'd get booed in matches all the time, especially during the Jericho feud.

 

Chyna knew maybe 3 moves, but the reason she was even partly over was because he looked like she could kick the typical man's ass. Jericho also pulled some Herculean carry-jobs against her.

[MrRant 0]

Boy does the asshole quota in this folder get bigger by the day or what?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Chyna wasn't popular? Ok, won't argue against that

[Guest deadbeater]

The reason the joshi are trained that way is mainly because Chigusa herself knew no other way. She had literally a childhood of boot camp, which she imparts to her students daily.

 

If Fit Finlay had the women when they were 16-18 years old, and treat them then daily as he does now, that would be probably the eqivalent.

 

One thing the NA women do have that many joshi don't is something to fall back on when the wrestling is over, be it education, certification, etc.

[Guest 11and0baby]

Well since Victoria is more charasmatic than most of the 'crusier' guys then women deserve a place there are reasons people like Shannon Moore and Ultimo Dragon don't connect with the fans.

 

They are simply unentertaining.

[Guest Goodear]

While I wouldn't go so far as to say that Ultimo Dragon isn't entertaining, I think the general point does hold water. Basically the reason Trish is on RAW more than Dreamer is that she is about ten times more over and probably makes the company a whole lot more in merchandising. Hell, Trish is probably more over than every cruiserweight in the company other than Rey and maybe by a step (if you want to classify him as such) Matt Hardy ... so yeah, WWE puts her on RAW. It's not like skill was ever the determining factor in who is going to be WWE champion anyway so why this comes as a surprise to anyone is a mystery to me.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

It's not a surprise, I understand why women are pushed, I just don't agree with it nor do I like it.

 

I don't think it's very fair to say Trish is more over than the cruiserweights simply because Cruiserweights don't get nearly the time in the spotlight as Trish does. They don't get the magazine coverage, they don't get their own DVD's (Divas), and their appearances on PPV are hit and miss (usually miss). Tajiri was very popular when he debuted as was Rey, they got over on their ability and I'd say at their respective peak they were as over as Trish was at her peak (Trish wasn't even over when she debuted).

[Guest Coffey]

I don't think it's fair to say that Trish is more over than people like Dreamer. Trish is on damn near every show and constantly gets wins and is made to look good.

 

Tommy Dreamer is lucky to get on 1/3 of the Sunday Night Heat shows and constantly has to job.

 

EDIT: Damn, beaten. RRR said the same thing.