Racism in Current Events

[Guest DeputyHawk]

just posting a copy of a PM sent to Dames, so I don't get accused of sneaking around behind people's backs, as i was when i said Dr Tom's anti-Muslim views weren't befitting of a mod.

 

Dames,

 

I'm possibly being an oversensitive liberal as usual, but the trend of anti-French sentiment in the CE folder has turned from something that started as a joke to incessant vibes to out and out racism.  The main cuplrits are Mr Rant, Vern Gange & Vyce, and while I don't for a second think it warrants a ban or a warning or anything so severe, I do think you should be aware these forums are read by wrestling fans internationally, and the fact this anti-French attitude has gone unreprimanded as the acceptable face of CE is, in my opinion, kind of disgraceful and promotes the site in a very bad light.  The one thread started about how funny it was to see thousands of French dead from the heatwave:

 

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...ST&f=18&t=39127

 

was by far the most offensive and was transferred to NHB by Tom, but pretty much every second thread in the CE folder at the moment contains racist jibes towards the French, often inserted for no reason other than people seem to think it's funny. 

 

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...ST&f=18&t=39824

 

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...ST&f=18&t=40240

 

Like I said, maybe I'm being oversensitive, but for a board which is read by fans intrentaionally this is not a good trend.

 

DeputyHawk

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

You're definitely being overly sensitive. All they're guilty of is bad taste, and not being funny, for the most part.

[Firestarter 0]

It's hard to take you seriously when you post crap like this:

 

your average american abroad is the most obnoxious, loud, arrogant, disprespectful piece of trash you are likely to encounter anywhere

You're not only oversensitive; you're a hypocrite. Where the hell do you get off saying the "average american" is "trash?" Everyone has different experiences with different people in different countries; making sweeping statements about the "average american" simply proves that it's not prejudice per se that pisses you off; it only pisses you off when it isn't YOUR KIND of prejudice. Stuff your querulous indignation in your shoe and shut your mouth.

[Guest DVD Spree]

You're not only oversensitive; you're a hypocrite. Where the hell do you get off saying the "average american" is "trash?" Everyone has different experiences with different people in different countries; making sweeping statements about the "average american" simply proves that it's not prejudice per se that pisses you off; it only pisses you off when it isn't YOUR KIND of prejudice. Stuff your querulous indignation in your shoe and shut your mouth.

Actually, I've always found that you Americans are amongst the politest people when you're "on vacation." You're polite, respectful, and you really dig learning other countries' culture.

 

If anyone on the planet are the loudest, most obnoxious pieces of trash when they go abroad, it's us Brits. Lager lout, Costa Del Sol, Ibiza-dwelling motherfuckers.

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

Marney, just because he posted that doesn't make his point any less valid.

 

Although while some of those comments were in bad taste, I don't think anyone was truly offended by them. I mean, I'm not offended by Jay's comments about the English being obnoxious lager louts...

[Firestarter 0]

Actually, I've always found that you Americans are amongst the politest people when you're "on vacation." You're polite, respectful, and you really dig learning other countries' culture.

Thank you, that was very nice to read. I've always been amazed and gratified by exactly the same thing: a lot of them really, really try. I may get tired of my countrymen when I see them all around me day after day, but (for the most part) they're a breath of fresh air when I'm abroad.

[Firestarter 0]

Marney, just because he posted that doesn't make his point any less valid.

It certainly does. Campaigning against all kinds of prejudice is understandable, if whiny, childish, and pathetic. Campaigning only against the kinds of prejudice which offend him personally, while actively engaging in prejudice which he agrees with, is indefensible.

[Guest Ecto Cooler]

racist jibes towards the French

 

That's the funniest thing I've read all day.

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

Marney, just because he posted that doesn't make his point any less valid.

It certainly does. Campaigning against all kinds of prejudice is understandable, if whiny, childish, and pathetic. Campaigning only against the kinds of prejudice which offend him personally, while actively engaging in prejudice which he agrees with, is indefensible.

No, because you're arguing against his bringing up these points, as opposed to the points themselves. Yes, you can't say that Americans are narrow minded while dismissing all Americans as obnoxious and loud. However, the points he made are as valid as if they were made by someone who loves Americans.

[Anorak 0]

You're definitely being overly sensitive. All they're guilty of is bad taste, and not being funny, for the most part.

That's about right, nothing worse than boring bastards who think they're funny. Big deal if Dep Hawk briefly sunk to their level in a fit of annoyance, there's no way he lives in a glass house as fucking huge as some other people we could so easily mention.

[Guest Retro Rob]

I think the French shit is really old and utterly absurd. People definitely get too caught up in it though. Honestly, there is something seriously wrong with you if you find humor in the fact that people of a certain nationality are dead. Especially when they never directly harmed you or anyone else for that matter.

[Firestarter 0]

you're arguing against his bringing up these points, as opposed to the points themselves.

Quite correct. There's nothing to argue about regarding the point itself. Unjustified prejudice of any kind is silly; all that's at issue is how people react to it: you can find it amusing, you can ignore it, you can argue against it, or you can bitch to a mod. DH chose the latter. That's his right.

 

Pointing out that he is a hypocrite is mine.

Edited September 2, 2003 by Cancer Marney

[Firestarter 0]

there is something seriously wrong with you if you find humor in the fact that people of a certain nationality are dead

Agreed. The heatwave thread was ridiculous.

[rising up out of the back seat-nuh 0]

I would be interested to see where DeputyHawk lives in Scotland. If its in a big city like Edinborough or Glasgow, he's more likely to encounter the typical rich, arrogant, obnoxious tourist than someone who lives in a smaller town.

 

I live in Portsmouth, and we got a lot of bad American tourists. However, if you go to somewhere like Calais, you're more likely to meet the nicer American tourists, and the English are the bastards.

[Anorak 0]

Would that silly Vern Gagne chappy still be around if his post concerned Jewish people dying in a heatwave? Discuss.

[Ripper 0]

*looks for French under "race" line on application...*

 

*doesn't see it*

[Guest DeputyHawk]

i don't hate americans. if you'd read to the end of the post i made rather than just quoting a single line from it, you'll find i actually said i can sometimes see why europeans feel that way about americans, and backed it up with a personal experience of my own. while i will admit to a certain frustration with how difficult americans can make it for themselves to be respected, the post was a view on perceptions more than anything else, and a shot to the racists that americans at their worst can be just as disagreeable as the french if not more so.

 

i've lived probably about a third of my life in america, and two thirds in various parts of europe (mainly scotland & france) - and i love both cultures and (for the most part) the people of both dearly. i've also worked for tourist agencies in both edinburgh & paris and as much as they are the exception rather than the rule (hence why i kept repeating the phrase 'in general'), the worst of american tourists are the worst of all nationalities who travel abroad, as regards lack of respect shown and offense caused. i also take on board the point that brits are a close second.

 

i will admit to playing devil's advocate as a reaction against the people who have been posting the spurious bile in the CE folder. i can see people could interpret that as hypocrisy, but rest assured if this was a french message board with members continually posting offensive crap about americans and glorying in their accidental deaths, i would call them out on it too.

 

and while i could simply ignore the threads which piss me off, i also like TSM as a posting forum a great deal and feel having these attitudes propagating the CE folder is really detracting from its credibility.

[MrRant 0]

How would I put this in way that is politically correct?

 

 

Boo Hoo.

 

Perhaps if you had the slightest bit of brains you would know why I posted what I did. JMA wasn't offended and he LIKED the jokes.

[Guest Crucifixio Jones]

Well, I was told that telling someone jokingly that I would stab them in the face was unfunny, in bad taste, offensive and uncalled for so nothing around here surprises me anymore. People suddenly develop thin skin around here whenever it suits THEM. I call it overreacting.

 

As far as a Mod or an Admin engaging in any of this racist behavior, last I checked they were just regular people, human beings that put on their pants one leg at a time just like I do. I don't think because someone clicked a little box next to their name on a messageboard and gave them a few more options than you have means they should be held to a higher standard.

[Firestarter 0]

the worst of american tourists are the worst of all nationalities who travel abroad, as regards lack of respect shown and offense caused.

Oh, please. If you want to go down that road, I had an experience exactly parallel to your experience in the Sistine Chapel less than a week ago. My wife and I were going through a new exhibition at the National Gallery of Art, and the only people disobeying the clearly posted signs prohibiting photography were Japanese. The only people disobeying the unspoken rule "Do not bring screaming babies into quiet art galleries" were three separate southeast Asian couples. Do I draw broad nationalistic or racial conclusions from these experiences? No. (Although I could easily and justifiably do so in both cases, were I so inclined.) You, however, feel free to generalise your individual experiences with American tourists to cover a country of 288 million people. Your calumnies were focused explicitly on "the average American." Don't try to dress it up now. You are precisely what you so shrilly decry.

 

And while I agree that the French heatwave thread was tasteless and foolish at best, stupid prejudice at worst, at least my individual distaste for the French is based on history, quantifiable cultural trends, political shifts, current events, and opinion polls. Not anecdotes.

[Nevermortal 0]

Jeez people, its a fucking message board. Lighten up.

 

Oh and....

Spoiler (Highlight to Read):

fuck france

[MrRant 0]

Let's look over MY posts in those 3 threads that the Deputy has posted:

 

1. I'd think the biggest symbol of America was the flag. Or McDonalds.

 

2. I suggest we rename him Pierre.

 

3. IQ test......

 

Shit... the games over for the Googlers.

 

4. BOO~! HISS~!

 

I demand DRAMA~!

 

5. I have no problem with most European countries. I have taken classes in German for example and would love to go there. France I have an issue with and will try to take the fastest way out of there as possible.

 

Edit: And Euro's take NO time to learn our language as when I worked in Las Vegas we have plenty of Frenchies come in and just speak French and no English. Same with the Japanese outside of Hi and OK. One of my co-workers got one of Japanese tourists to say "You my nigga" real loud though and that was too funny.

 

6. And the entire thread about Al Bundy's French jokes.

 

I think someone has got their tighty whiteys on a tad too snug.

[Firestarter 0]

One final point: to expound on Ecto Cooler and Ripper's very apt criticisms, "French" is not a race. If anyone were saying "those damn Gallic bastards" you might have a point, DH, but no one is. "French" encompasses people of European, African, Moorish, Germanic, and Arab descent, and many others; it is completely ridiculous to call distaste for a group encompassing so many races (all of which are also included in the term "American," by the way) "racist." My problem with the French isn't based on the countless colours of their skins. It isn't "racism." It's based on their politics, their attitude, their history. Call it "politics-ism" or "history-ism" if you like. Or "Current Events-ism." After all, how dare a folder labelled "Current Events" incorporate its namesake?! Unacceptable!

 

There's your next crusade, slugger. Lock and load.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

http://forums.thesmartmarks.com/index.php?...ST&f=18&t=38710

 

 

this is the thread *I* have a problem with. The jokes are bad enough but did Mike really need to end the thread by offering me a gun to shoot myself? what the heck does that have to do with current events?

[Guest Retro Rob]

I think the thread CWM mentioned definitely crossed the line in more ways than one. At some point it either should have been moved to NHB or closed since it turned into back and forth nonsense that had nothing to do with the original topic.

[Guest DeputyHawk]

and what does a thread of outdated bundy anti-french jokes have to do with current events either? there's such a thing as AIM or PMing for that sort of puerile one-on-one exchange between posters, not in the CE folder proper.

 

and okay marney fine, if you want to think i'm a hypocritical anti-american racist then super, be my guest. but by ignoring the issue in question in favour of trying to discredit the source, or by aguing semantics about common usage of a word, you're not really making much of a point beyond your usual bluster. i don't even have a problem with you personally over this (unlike others, you know when to stop), you also know fine well if this was about jews or blacks it would be a completely different story. but just because it happens to be fashionable it america right now to be anti-french simply does not make it acceptable opinion in an international discussion forum.

 

if dames says what is going on in CE is fine and dandy, then great i'll let it go.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Regarding the thread CWM referenced, I agree with just about everything Mike said in regards to suicide and all that. As for not being able to personally say to one's self "Enough, I'm straightening my shit out." I say bullshit, because I personally did just that. That thread's neither here nor there, though, and doesn't mention the French.

[Firestarter 0]

okay marney fine, if you want to think i'm a hypocritical anti-american racist then super

I don't think you're anything of the sort. I do think you're jumping on the bandwagon and making a big fucking mountain out of an insignificant molehill just because JMA stubbed his poor delicate toes once, and now hopping around on one foot bitching and whining seems to be the cool thing to do.

 

by ignoring the issue in question in favour of trying to discredit the source, or by aguing semantics about common usage of a word, you're not really making much of a point

I'm doing neither. Bashing the French because of their history, their current politics, and their abominable law and order situation is not racism. You're the one who used the word. I bash Palestinians all the time as well, and for similar reasons. If you were going to call someone racist, it should have been me, and on that issue; there was no reason to harp on stupid, insensitive anti-French comments which were obviously intended as a joke in the first place and failed miserably at that in the second.

 

Why don't you ask me why I hate the Palestinians as a race? I do. And for perfectly sound reasons which have NOTHING to do with their colour. I don't think it's impossible for a Palestinian to be a good person; I just think that the overwhelming majority aren't - and that's a result of their culture, their religion, their indoctrination, and the way other people manipulate them and use them as weapons. It's a statement of fact, not a racist opinion. Just like my distaste for the French is based on facts, on their own actions, not "racial" prejudice (however the hell you want to define that).

 

you also know fine well if this was about jews or blacks it would be a completely different story

I've criticised black people quite often in the past (affirmative action; corruption, incompetence, and just plain evil in Africa; ingratitude in both Africa and America; the stupidity of reparations claims), and from time to time I've even criticised Israel when their actions deserved it. Does that make me a KKK Grand Wizard and a neo-Nazi? According to your thinking, perhaps so.

[MrRant 0]

You thought the Al Bundy jokes were unfunny?

[Firestarter 0]

The Bundy jokes were vaguely amusing. The French heatwave deaths thing was tasteless and stupid.