Just a Story About Our Saudi Allies

[Dr. Tom 0]

The more I read about incidents like this -- and they're appallingly common in Moslem countries throughout the Middle East -- the more I think we should just let Israel torch that whole part of the world and be done with it.

[Guest JMA]

I think their children can still be saved. It's no wonder they grow up to hate Jews when you look at who's teaching them. They need to be shown that there is another way. Obviously, right now they aren't.

[Guest MikeSC]

I think their children can still be saved. It's no wonder they grow up to hate Jews when you look at who's teaching them. They need to be shown that there is another way. Obviously, right now they aren't.

If the youth are being taught this same crap, they will turn out no different.

-=Mike

[Vern Gagne 0]

What happened that turned the Muslem religion to the world's center for arts and culture, which it was during it's early years and dark ages in Europe. To a religion overtaken by zealots and oppressive tyrants and murderers?

[tommytomlin 0]

The attitudes shown towards Muslims and the Middle-East in this thread make me sick, and VERY glad I live in Australia, where the type of idiotic Christianity shown here is ignored. The fact that every neo-conservative in America feels the same way troubles me even more.

[MrRant 0]

You know... if it wasn't for Fosters..... you'd be next.

[tommytomlin 0]

Knowing John Howard, he'd probably support it.

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

James Lee, Peter Brandon, and Glenn Ballard are an unlikely trio of terrorist bombers. A craftsman of artificial limbs, a chef, and a computer engineer, none of them had any criminal record before the Mubahith made one for them.

Come on, an organic-fueled fake-leg bomb with a computerized detonator is possible...

[Guest JMA]

If the youth are being taught this same crap, they will turn out no different.

-=Mike

Doubtful. They aren't inherently bad. They're a product of anti-semitic Muslim theocracies. Once these theocracies are torn down (by force if need be) their society will have a chance to change.

[Guest MikeSC]

If the youth are being taught this same crap, they will turn out no different.

              -=Mike

Doubtful. They aren't inherently bad. They're a product of anti-semitic Muslim theocracies. Once these theocracies are torn down (by force if need be) their society will have a chance to change.

No argument --- but it will take, roughly, a century for all of the ill feelings to go away.

 

I figure, at least, 20 years before the theocracies are overthrown. Brutally hard to overthrow Muslim theocracies when you have no weaponry and the U.S is hesitant to interfere due to the heat for the Iraq mission.

 

Then, it'll take SEVERAL generations to eliminate some of the virulent anti-non-Muslim sentiment in these countries --- I'll guess in the 80 year range.

 

And, sadly, that is probably optimistic.

 

The best hope is that a democracy in Iraq might REALLY cause Iran's theocratic rulers (let's be honest, the "President" has virtually no power) headaches and the students might work hard to overthrow them.

-=Mike

[Vyce 0]

Does it really matter who's worse? They've both been evil at various points throughout history and both have evil aspects today, but only one is bent on the destruction of the United States. Who cares what Christians do? I can't think of too many Christians or Christian groups who think my country must be destroyed. I can think of countless Moslems and Moslems groups who do.

Ding ding ding! And we have a winner.

[Vern Gagne 0]

The attitudes shown towards Muslims and the Middle-East in this thread make me sick, and VERY glad I live in Australia, where the type of idiotic Christianity shown here is ignored. The fact that every neo-conservative in America feels the same way troubles me even more.

Idiotic Christianity? When did Tom become a Christian? and we all know Marney's never spoken out against Christianity. The attitude shown toward Muslims is directed at the leaders, and the large majority that refuse to condemn terrorist acts against innocent civilians.

[Guest MikeSC]

The attitudes shown towards Muslims and the Middle-East in this thread make me sick, and VERY glad I live in Australia, where the type of idiotic Christianity shown here is ignored. The fact that every neo-conservative in America feels the same way troubles me even more.

To give you a little hint:

 

The psychos in the Middle East wouldn't mind killing YOU, personally.

 

You're either Muslim, or an infidel who needs to die.

 

Heck, being Muslim alone is not enough to protect you.

-=Mike

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Allah = God = Jah = Yhwh.

 

So, you think God sucks?

In this context, completely and utterly.

[Dr. Tom 0]

The attitudes shown towards Muslims and the Middle-East in this thread make me sick, and VERY glad I live in Australia, where the type of idiotic Christianity shown here is ignored. The fact that every neo-conservative in America feels the same way troubles me even more.

I'm an atheist. I don't give a shit how Christians feel about Islam. My attitude comes from the fact that there are countless people who would murder me and my countrymen simply because 1) we're not Moslems, and 2) we're Americans. Call me crazy, but I'd rather see people like that shot in the head before they have a chance to try and actually do something.

 

Don't think Australia's off-limits, either. If one of your diplomats takes a piss on a sand dune and some fuckheaded Moslem extremist doesn't like it, then you'll be next.

[Highland 0]

And hence the problem with all religions: If they don't like what you do or are, they can kill you and claim "God told me to"

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

The religion doesn't kill anyone. Men, with full responsibility, who follow it, do kill people.

[Guest MikeSC]

And hence the problem with all religions: If they don't like what you do or are, they can kill you and claim "God told me to"

Funny how ALL religions get painted with this brush when only Islam seems to heavily promote this line of thinking?

-=Mike

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Christianity changes. Christians, by and large, do not WANT to run a country, nor do they wish harm on those who believe differently.

            -=Mike

They control the societal values in the country and only secretly (and sometimes not-so-secretly) wish harm on those who believe differently.

Yeah, American society is controlled by Christians. Did you ever think that was because Christians are the majority.

 

 

Oh, and thanks for generalizing an entire religon. I'm going to try it now:

 

All Jews control economics and only secretly wish harm on Gentiles.

 

Wow, this is awesome.

[Guest MikeSC]

Yeah, American society is controlled by Christians. Did you ever think that was because Christians are the majority.

I assume you're being sarcastic --- but ask a Christian how much power Christianity has over this country.

-=Mike

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Yeah, American society is controlled by Christians. Did you ever think that was because Christians are the majority.

I assume you're being sarcastic --- but ask a Christian how much power Christianity has over this country.

-=Mike

It's fascinating how perception can affect reality.

 

To some people this country seems to be a theocratic society.

 

Others see it as a land devoid of morality slowly walking toward cultural collapse.

 

I tend to think that we're like a puppy; a puppy who's lost his way.

 

Somehow that relates to industry, my friends.

[Guest Brockaholic]

Hey guys, I'm a Muslim. If any one of you have any question to ask about Islam I would be happy to answer them..........

 

As far as the topic of the thread, there are a couple of things that are misunderstood and I think they need to be corrected.

 

First let me say there was not even one Saudi leader that blamed the "Jews" for 9/11 much less prince Naif and he's NOT jockeying for position to become king after (or instead of) Crown Prince Abdullah, Prince Sultan is the one who will.As for the bombings when they begun in the last few years,the Saudi goverment never said that they were part of a war between European bootleggers.Actually they (just like other GCC countries)are not using the media to tell the western world about their point of view.So basically what you all watch on CNN and other networks and read on National Review.com and other websites that Saudi Arabia is a terrorist nation governed by a police system is a complete bullshit.

 

The whole situation of the Middle East is basically this :The Jews invaded Palstine 100 years ago with Britain's help, 50 years later they announced "Israel" to which 11 minutes later American president Harry Truman recognized as "the only democratic system in the middle east".The REAL reason why Jews chose Palestine is religion of course.This is NOT the only land that they fought for 100 years to gain.They originally wanted to take over about an area from the eastern part of Egypt to the western side of Iraq and from Syria(the whole country) all away to the Northern providence of Saudi Arabia because they believe it's their holy land.THAT is why the problem of Middle East will NEVER be solved.On the other hand, you have about 1.5 billion of muslims who STILL don't recognize Israel and believe that Palestine was raped and they will do whatever it takes to take it back and they blame the western world (America particularly)for keeping Israel alive until now.So don't be surprised If Muslims hate America.I mean CAN YOU PLEASE explain to me how come they don't mind Israel having mass destruction weapons including 200 nuclear bombs while they took over Iraq because "they are violating the international legitimacy" and not to mention that America abused it's power againest other muslim countries especially in the last 10 years.

Edited October 9, 2003 by Brockaholic

[Firestarter 0]

CAN YOU PLEASE explain to me how come they don't mind Israel having mass destruction weapons including 200 nuclear bombs while they took over Iraq

Israel is our ally. She's a just, transparent, and accountable democracy.

 

Hey guys, I'm a Muslim. If any one of you have any question to ask about Islam I would be happy to answer them

Right. And like Tom said, I'm sure your local Catholic priest would be happy to answer any questions you might have on the official church policy about raping little kids.

 

As far as the topic of the thread, there are a couple of things that are misunderstood and I think they need to be corrected.

I can't wait.

 

First let me say there was not even one Saudi leader that blamed the "Jews" for 9/11 much less prince Naif

"We know that the Jews have manipulated the Sept. 11 incidents and turned American public opinion against Arabs and Muslims. We still ask ourselves: Who has benefited from Sept. 11 attacks? I think they (the Jews) were the protagonists of such attacks."

- Western Herald article

- MEMRI dispatch

 

and he's NOT jockeying for position to become king after (or instead of) Crown Prince Abdullah, Prince Sultan is the one who will.

Not necessarily.

 

basically what you all watch on CNN and other networks and read on National Review.com and other websites that Saudi Arabia is a terrorist nation governed by a police system is a complete bullshit

Tell that to the little girls they burned alive for daring to show their ankles.

 

Blah blah blah Palestine raped blah blah Israel bad blah blah blah

That's nice.

 

So don't be surprised If Muslims hate America

I'm not. I expect evil people to hate us. I just don't care.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

CAN YOU PLEASE explain to me how come they don't mind Israel having mass destruction weapons including 200 nuclear bombs while they took over Iraq

Israel is our ally. She's a just, transparent, and accountable democracy.

 

You know... Israel has used plenty of underhanded tricks to get their way before. Including using female MOSSAD agents to seduce American scientists into giving nuclear secrest to them in the 80's.

 

Not saying their worse then the PLO, but they're just as dirty as any other Western Democracy... maybe dirtier. I don't your choice of words was realistic. (Though I agree with the essance of what you were saying. That they are our allies, and that they do have a democratically elected goverment)

[Guest MikeSC]

Hey guys, I'm a Muslim. If any one of you have any question to ask about Islam I would be happy to answer them..........

 

As far as the topic of the thread, there are a couple of things that are misunderstood and I think they need to be corrected.

 

First let me say there was not even one Saudi leader that blamed the "Jews" for 9/11

 

No offense, but I'll take MEMRI's word over yours on this regard, seeing as how they read the papers over there and simply translate them.

 

much less prince Naif and he's NOT jockeying for position to become king after (or instead of) Crown Prince Abdullah, Prince Sultan is the one who will.As for the bombings when they begun in the last few years,the Saudi goverment never said that they were part of a war between European bootleggers.Actually they (just like other GCC countries)are not using the media to tell the western world about their point of view.So basically what you all watch on CNN and other networks and read on National Review.com and other websites that Saudi Arabia is a terrorist nation governed by a police system is a complete bullshit.

 

And you assume they're not based on what, precisely? The media, at least, has some FACTS to back up what they claim. Is this one of those "Are you going to believe ME or your EYES?" type thing?

 

The whole situation of the Middle East is basically this :The Jews invaded Palstine 100 years ago with Britain's help, 50 years later they announced "Israel" to which 11 minutes later American president Harry Truman recognized as "the only democratic system in the middle east".

 

The U.N "announced" Israel because of the historical treatment of Jews.

 

The REAL reason why Jews chose Palestine is religion of course.This is NOT the only land that they fought for 100 years to gain.They originally wanted to take over about an area from the eastern part of Egypt to the western side of Iraq and from Syria(the whole country) all away to the Northern providence of Saudi Arabia because they believe it's their holy land.THAT is why the problem of Middle East will NEVER be solved.

 

The problem won't be solved because Israel lowered its demands and hasn't pursued them, even though they could achieve them --- fairly easy?

 

Do you not see how asinine a line of thinking that is?

 

The Jews, no doubt, wanted more land --- but they SETTLED for what they have.

 

On the other hand, you have about 1.5 billion of muslims who STILL don't recognize Israel and believe that Palestine was raped and they will do whatever it takes to take it back and they blame the western world (America particularly)for keeping Israel alive until now.So don't be surprised If Muslims hate America.

 

The sub-human monkeys who run those countries can, pardon my French, lick my ass. They're a bunch of anti-Semitic and vulgar snots who SHOULD be wiped off the face of the Earth and the soonest possible convenience.

 

If a group has shown a remarkable inability to actually live peacefully, then we should do whatever necessary to protect ourselves. And that means PRO-ACTIVE activity.

 

To give you a hint, the U.S, by and large, couldn't give less of a damn WHAT the Arab world thinks at this point.

 

I mean CAN YOU PLEASE explain to me how come they don't mind Israel having mass destruction weapons including 200 nuclear bombs while they took over Iraq because "they are violating the international legitimacy" and not to mention that America abused it's power againest other muslim countries especially in the last 10 years.

 

American abused their power in what way?

 

Why do we have no problem with Israel? Because, unlike Iraq, Israel hasn't shown a willingness to USE WMD's.

 

Ask the Kurds how unwilling Saddam was to use chemical weaponry.

 

And if the U.N wishes to act against Israel, they can go ahead and try. The U.S just won't help at all. Nor will Britain. Nor will Australia.

 

But I'm sure those Arab states and some of the European countries will be able to pull it off.

-=Mike

-=Mike

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

To continue the vein of "I'm [insert religion] so here's my opinion" that's been dominating the threads here, here's the Jewish guy! Whoo!

 

First off, on the original topic- yeah, this is really nothing new, sad as it is. Which is why in the next presidential election I'm voting for whoever has some sort of clear "alternative energy" policy to ease our dependence on oil from shithole nations like Saudi Arabia.

 

I've read several texts and reports on the Israel/Palestine situation (I don't have them on me- I'll cite them tomorrow if someone asks), and at least currently, Israel is 100% completely in the right, heck, they've ALWAYS been right in how they've handled outside invasion. And Brockaholic, the Jewish people DIDN'T "invade" Israel. They immigrated there during and following the Holocaust, and actually built something worthwhile in that dustball region- a workable and prosperous agricultrual community. Something Palestinians NEVER did.

 

Israel was created because it was promised to the Jewish people many years before (1917) in the Balfour Declaration- the atrocity of the Holocaust finally made the British government and the United Nations actually take that document seriously. As far as "their land," it was NEVER theirs. It was ALWAYS under foreign control. In fact, following the creation of Israel, Palestinians had MORE autonomy than they ever had prior to its founding. Israel is the ONLY country in the Middle East where the Arab population has a noticeable and serious political voice.

 

 

The problem is this: to the average Palestinian, this is a simply about land. To the Palestinian leadership, (ie Arafat and Hamas) it's about anti-Semitism and wiping the Jewish people in that region completely out, everybody dead. A deal that would have settled this issue long ago and made the vast majority of the Palestinian people happy is being held back by one person- Arafat, and with his illness, hopefully he fades from power soon and the more rational Palestinian leaders (there are some) will take over land negotiations.

 

But the one thing in this thread that's making my blood boil is the generalized blanket statements on Islam. Islam, at its core, is a noble religion, just like Christianity is, like Judaism is, like Catholicism is. Let's take a look at the Five Pillars of Islam:

 

1. Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;

2. Establishment of the daily prayers;

3. Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;

4. Self-purification through fasting; and

5. The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.

 

Doesn't sound so bad, does it? There's nowhere in there that says "slay the infidels"- it's merely an extremist, highly distorted and fucked-up interpretation of the "jihad" concept, quoted as follows:

 

1. A personal, internal struggle (inner Jihad)

2. An external battle or Armed Combat against aggressors (outer Jihad)

 

That #2 interpretation has been twisted by Osama Bin Laden and his fundamentalist movement, which accounts for a very, very small minority of of Muslims in a very, very small region of the world. It's using religion for your own political gain, which countless leaders have done before and countless future leaders will continue to do.

 

The point I'm making, in a roundabout way, is that the actions of a tiny minority (which unfortunately, has had all the leadership power in the Middle East the past 70 or so years) should not condemn what is, at its core, an honorable belief system which shares its roots (and many of its core ethical systems) with Christianity and Judaism. All three were descended from the same man, Abraham, who was imparted the monotheistic belief from G-d, so yeah, Allah=Yahweh=G-d. Ask any Muslim in the US what they thought about this article, or anything else coming from Iraq, Iran, etc. and I'd be willing to bet 99% would reply that it's insane. American Islamic groups all universally condemned 9/11, like any sane person would do. If some of what was said about Islam in this topic was said to the average Muslim on the street, they'd get socked in the face, and deservedly so, for their idiocy.

 

Writing off Islam as evil ignores thousands of years of invaluable cultural contributions. It's ignorant, and as another poster said, ignorance is the root of all evil.

 

Edited October 11, 2003 by ShooterJay

[Firestarter 0]

ignorance is the root of all evil

Possibly so. That being the case, let's clear up yours.

 

one thing in this thread that's making my blood boil is the generalized blanket statements on Islam. Islam, at its core, is a noble religion... There's nowhere in there that says "slay the infidels"

No?

"Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out: persecution is severer than slaughter; but do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them. Such is the recompense of the unbelievers."

-2.191

 

"They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be all alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly their homes in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

- 4.89

 

"You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these we have given you a clear authority."

- 4.91

 

"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

- 5.51

 

"And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!"

- 9.30

 

it's merely an extremist, highly distorted and fucked-up interpretation of the "jihad" concept, quoted as follows:

 

1. A personal, internal struggle (inner Jihad)

2. An external battle or Armed Combat against aggressors (outer Jihad)

 

That #2 interpretation has been twisted by Osama Bin Laden and his fundamentalist movement, which accounts for a very, very small minority of of Muslims in a very, very small region of the world.

"Jihad is "holy war." Or, more precisely: It means the legal, compulsory, communal effort to expand the territories ruled by Muslims at the expense of territories ruled by non-Muslims.

The purpose of jihad, in other words, is not directly to spread the Islamic faith but to extend sovereign Muslim power (faith, of course, often follows the flag). Jihad is thus unabashedly offensive in nature, with the eventual goal of achieving Muslim dominion over the entire globe.

Jihad did have two variant meanings through the centuries, one more radical, one less so. The first holds that Muslims who interpret their faith differently are infidels and therefore legitimate targets of jihad... the second meaning, associated with mystics, rejects the legal definition of jihad as armed conflict and tells Muslims to withdraw from the worldly concerns to achieve spiritual depth.

Jihad in the sense of territorial expansion has always been a central aspect of Muslim life. That's how Muslims came to rule much of the Arabian Peninsula by the time of the Prophet Muhammad's death in 632...

Jihad's most ghastly present reality is in Sudan, where until recently the ruling party bore the slogan "Jihad, Victory and Martyrdom." For two decades, under government auspices, jihadists there have physically attacked non-Muslims, looted their belongings and killed their males.

Jihadists then enslaved tens of thousands of females and children, forced them to convert to Islam, sent them on forced marches, beat them and set them to hard labor. The women and older girls also suffered ritual gang-rape, genital mutilation and a life of sexual servitude.

Sudan's state-sponsored jihad has caused about 2 million deaths and the displacement of another 4 million - making it the greatest humanitarian catastrophe of our era.

Despite jihad's record as a leading source of conflict for 14 centuries, causing untold human suffering, academic and Islamic apologists claim it permits only defensive fighting, or even that it is entirely non-violent...

It would be wonderful were jihad to evolve into nothing more aggressive than controlling one's anger, but that will not happen simply by wishing away a gruesome reality."

- What is Jihad?

 

"The trouble with this accumulated wisdom of the scholars is simple to state. It suggests that Osama bin Laden had no idea what he was saying when he declared jihad on the United States several years ago and then repeatedly murdered Americans in Somalia, at the U.S. embassies in East Africa, in the port of Aden, and then on September 11, 2001. It implies that organizations with the word "jihad" in their titles, including Palestinian Islamic Jihad and bin Laden's own "International Islamic Front for the Jihad Against Jews and Crusade[rs]," are grossly misnamed. And what about all the Muslims waging violent and aggressive jihads, under that very name and at this very moment, in Algeria, Egypt, Sudan, Chechnya, Kashmir, Mindanao, Ambon, and other places around the world? Have they not heard that jihad is a matter of controlling one's anger?

But of course it is bin Laden, Islamic Jihad, and the jihadists worldwide who define the term, not a covey of academic apologists. More importantly, the way the jihadists understand the term is in keeping with its usage through fourteen centuries of Islamic history...

Jihad was no abstract obligation through the centuries, but a key aspect of Muslim life...

The second variant, usually associated with Sufis, or Muslim mystics, was the doctrine customarily translated as "greater jihad" but perhaps more usefully termed "higher jihad." This Sufi variant invokes allegorical modes of interpretation to turn jihad's literal meaning of armed conflict upside-down, calling instead for a withdrawal from the world to struggle against one's baser instincts in pursuit of numinous awareness and spiritual depth. But as Rudolph Peters notes in his authoritative Jihad in Classical and Modern Islam (1995), this interpretation was "hardly touched upon" in premodern legal writings on jihad.

In the vast majority of premodern cases, then, jihad signified one thing only: armed action versus non-Muslims...

It is an intellectual scandal that, since September 11, 2001, scholars at American universities have repeatedly and all but unanimously issued public statements that avoid or whitewash the primary meaning of jihad in Islamic law and Muslim history. It is quite as if historians of medieval Europe were to deny that the word "crusade" ever had martial overtones, instead pointing to such terms as "crusade on hunger" or "crusade against drugs" to demonstrate that the term signifies an effort to improve society."

- Jihad and the Professors

 

Ask any Muslim in the US what they thought about this article, or anything else coming from Iraq, Iran, etc. and I'd be willing to bet 99% would reply that it's insane. American Islamic groups all universally condemned 9/11

"The students [at a private academy in Brooklyn] stated point-blank that they would not fight for America against a fellow Muslim, denied that Osama bin Laden was behind the attacks, and criticized the United States for always opposing Muslims...

As to whether suicide bombers would go to Paradise, the students said they earnestly hoped so. 'I mean, they're doing it for a good cause,' one boy explained. 'I pray that they go to Paradise,' another said. Not only that, but one student said, 'I think we'd all probably do the same.'"

- My Name is Adolf

"South African Muslim theologian, Farid Esack, spoke bluntly about the Muslim reaction to 9/11. Most Muslims in the world rejoiced on 9/11, he said, because from their viewpoint the bully on the block was finally getting a beating. People in the U.S. wanted to believe that most Muslims were peace-loving, so they asked questions about Islam to allay their own fears, not to really understand what had happened."

- CTA

 

Writing off Islam as evil ignores thousands of years of invaluable cultural contributions.

True. But people culturally associated with an evil religion can still produce works of beauty (the Mezquita de Cordoba), profound intellectual significance (al-Khwarizmi's concept of zero), and tolerance (the theological debates between Christians, Hindoos, and Moslems sponsored by Akbar the Great). Ignoring the evil is as foolish as ignoring the contributions, and a thousand times more dangerous.

[Firestarter 0]

NB: all boldface in the quotations found in my previous post is my own.

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

Thank you for taking the time to research all of that. It was enlightening.