Catholic Church to Africa: Don't use condoms

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids

 

The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which the HIV virus can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.

The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to the HIV virus.

 

A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.

 

The church's claims are revealed in a BBC1 Panorama programme, Sex and the Holy City, to be broadcast on Sunday. The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

 

"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

 

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

 

The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .

 

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".

 

The Vatican's Cardinal Trujillo said: "They are wrong about that... this is an easily recognisable fact."

 

The church opposes any kind of contraception because it claims it breaks the link between sex and procreation - a position Pope John Paul II has fought to defend.

 

In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have the HIV virus - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability. The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms."

 

Sex and the Holy City includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choirmaster against using condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

 

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

 

Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,736...1059068,00.html

 

[Guest JMA]

I hate when groups try to force their morality on others. Fuck the Catholic Church.

[Cartman 0]

Nothin but a fuckin Cult.

[chaosrage 0]

lmao

[Skywarp! 0]

I hate the American media. They have the chance to use this story to expose just how bad the politiking of the Church has blinded/set back the world. And I haven't seen anything about it here.

[CanadianChris 0]

Tiny holes? The only tiny holes are in their pitiful argument.

[Guest croweater]

no no, BIG GAPING HOLES in the argument.

Yes, HIV is a lot smaller than sperm, but it is attached to the sperm and anyway, very unlikely to fit through a condom even being 1/400 the size of sperm.

 

Anyway, the catholic church can support the use of contraception as a form of protection against disease with prevention of pregnancy being a side effect.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Thank you to everyone who so enlightenly wrote "Fuck the Catholic Church." You show your ignorance by such remarks.

 

Hi, I'm your TSM Catholic. I too think that the policies being propounded in Africa at the current moment are absurd, but you don't see me making blanket statements of unfounded hatred do you?

 

As a Catholic, we are taught that "birth control" and the "wasting of seed" are immoral acts. Many in the church abide by these teachings, and they're not without their support in scripture. I am not one of those people.

 

These people who advocate this have a faith. They have a belief, and at the very least, they're attempting to abide by that belief. It's not as if their intentions are cruel.

 

I can understand the doubt we have on the wisdom of the church's policies, but at the very least, now you know the reason why the church doesn't advocate birth control unless its abstinence. It is this conviction that drives them to announce this policy, regardless of whether it is a "useful" policy whose benefits outweighs its costs.

 

It is a sad day when "fundamentalists" are called wacko, extreme, and told to "fuck off" from modern society when all they do is peacefully adhere to the "fundamental" tenets of their faith. While I am not one of these, being more reformist, I understand where they're coming from

 

I wish many of you here could get off your "personal high-horse" and see this.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Meh.

 

I personally doubt that said statements are anything more than the opinions of one or more idiots that happen to be higher-up in the bureaucracy.

 

Don't condemn "CATHOLICS" because of the stupidity of one or two morons.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Meh.

 

I personally doubt that said statements are anything more than the opinions of one or more idiots that happen to be higher-up in the bureaucracy.

 

Don't condemn "CATHOLICS" because of the stupidity of one or two morons.

Thanks Tyler,

 

<--I cannot believe I just said that. I agree with Tyler. He agrees with me.

 

Wow...What a weird day =)

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

<-----------------

 

Catholic.

 

<----------------

 

Thinks Africans should use condoms.

 

 

So yes, comments like "STUPID CATHOLICS THINK THEY SHOULDN'T USE CONDOMS LOL U SUQ LYNCH CATHOLICS" are rather absurd. Hell, I bet not even all of the LEADERSHIP believes what this cardinal said.

[Skywarp! 0]

Meh.

 

I personally doubt that said statements are anything more than the opinions of one or more idiots that happen to be higher-up in the bureaucracy.

 

Don't condemn "CATHOLICS" because of the stupidity of one or two morons.

That's not what I was saying.

 

I am a Catholic. But the political, earthly face of the Catholic Church is an archaic institution; a dusty old animal who won't get with the 21st Century.

 

When you look throughout history, people involved in the organization of the Church most likely have done more to set back the human race than any other group.

 

I criticize because I'm trying to fight against the further and futher decay of my faith. I want the Church to embrace views and tolerance that can make me whole heartedly reaffirm my faith. But now all my praying is done outside of Church.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

I agree, but I hardly think the political face of the Catholic Church put out a paper condemning the use of condoms.

 

It sounds like one or two morons said some stupid shit and it was picked up by the Guardian.

[Skywarp! 0]

True, I'm blowing this out of proportion for what it is...my anger towards the larger issue becomes unbottled from time to time.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Indeed.

 

The political face of the church pisses me the fuck off a lot, too, so you're not alone. However, I absolutely refuse to believe they're this stupid.

[Firestarter 0]

Hi, I'm your TSM Catholic.

Join the club. But don't presume to speak for it.

 

I too think that the policies being propounded in Africa at the current moment are absurd, but you don't see me making blanket statements of unfounded hatred do you?

Because you have a vested emotional and ideological interest.

 

As a Catholic, we are taught that "birth control" and the "wasting of seed" are immoral acts... These people who advocate this have a faith.  They have a belief, and at the very least, they're attempting to abide by that belief.  It's not as if their intentions are cruel.

Their beliefs and their advocacy of their beliefs causes human suffering and death. At that point I stop caring about their intentions. What they are is evil. And you don't talk to evil and you don't reason with evil, you destroy it.

 

I can understand the doubt we have on the wisdom of the church's policies, but at the very least, now you know the reason why the church doesn't advocate birth control unless its abstinence.

Fuck the church, fuck their false "reason," and fuck you. The Cardinal is a liar, plain and simple. He is lying to ignorant people and his lies are killing them.

 

It is this conviction that drives them to announce this policy, regardless of whether it is a "useful" policy whose benefits outweighs its costs.

Benefits? WHAT BENEFITS? More people dying of AIDS? What the fuck are you talking about? Do you really think someone's going to go up to heaven after lying in a bed for a few months wasting away in his own filth and St Peter will glad-hand him through the pearly gates, saying, "At least you never put latex on your cock?" What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you really this deluded?

 

It is a sad day when "fundamentalists" are called wacko, extreme, and told to "fuck off" from modern society when all they do is peacefully adhere to the "fundamental" tenets of their faith.

It's a sad day when people like you, apologists for conscienceless liars, ignorant ideologues, and murderers by proxy are taken seriously by anyone. It's a sad day when human life is considered so worthless that upholding some idiotic rule in a moldy old "holy" book is raised above it. And it's a sad day when the leaders of a church, supposedly people who look out for their flock, LIE to them and their lies kill them.

 

Calling fundamentalists extreme wackos? Doesn't even compare. It's just the fucking truth.

 

While I am not one of these, being more reformist, I understand where they're coming from

That's dandy. I know exactly where they're going, and if there's a God they won't need mittens.

 

I wish many of you here could get off your "personal high-horse" and see this.

To hell with you and to hell with the horse you rode in on. And to hell with the church.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Well of course condoms won't work in Africa.

 

I doubt they would fit 99 percent of the population there...

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Another Marney/Popick chat...My stuff has a dash in front of it

 

Join the club. But don't presume to speak for it.

-Hey, I didn't know you were catholic! You, me, Tyler, and Kane can have a great eucharist!

 

 

Because you have a vested emotional and ideological interest.

-No, because I'm against what they're doing but I don't think its representative of the whole church, and is therefore invalid.

 

Their beliefs and their advocacy of their beliefs causes human suffering and death. At that point I stop caring about their intentions. What they are is evil. And you don't talk to evil and you don't reason with evil, you destroy it.

-Is ignorance evil? Or is ignorance simply ignorance. They're not guilty of evil, they're guilty of ignorance. Those are vastly different moral outcomes.

 

Fuck the church, fuck their false "reason," and fuck you. The Cardinal is a liar, plain and simple. He is lying to ignorant people and his lies are killing them.

-Myself and Tyler would agree with you that the Cardinal is deluded, and we don't support his actions, so why should we be "fucked?"

 

 

Benefits? WHAT BENEFITS? More people dying of AIDS? What the fuck are you talking about? Do you really think someone's going to go up to heaven after lying in a bed for a few months wasting away in his own filth and St Peter will glad-hand him through the pearly gates, saying, "At least you never put latex on your cock?" What the fuck is wrong with you? Are you really this deluded?

- You read that line completely wrong. Useful policy is one in which benefits outweigh costs, ie, putting a condom on in Africa has benefits which outweigh the costs of not being able to preach what some say is the "true word" I'd say life outweighs death, and you'd agree. But what you didn't read is that there is a psychological conviction that these people who propound this theory have that outweighs the negative balance between costs and benefits. No rational human would advocate a policy of whichi he had a clear understanding that it costs more than it benefits. There is some other reason, and this is made up in convinction, loyalty, sentiment. Look, I was just describing how someone could advocate this rationally...NOT THAT I AGREE.

 

 

It's a sad day when people like you, apologists for conscienceless liars, ignorant ideologues, and murderers by proxy are taken seriously by anyone. It's a sad day when human life is considered so worthless that upholding some idiotic rule in a moldy old "holy" book is raised above it. And it's a sad day when the leaders of a church, supposedly people who look out for their flock, LIE to them and their lies kill them.

-If you call the bible a moldy old holy book, how can you call yourself a Catholic? Or did I read that wrong above. Look, I don't know why they proclaim this, but I mentioned a decent *and empirically valid, go and look up sentiment research in any economics journal* reason why. And I'm called an apologist? Apologists would decry the method of delivery but approve of the message. I decry both. Therefore, I am not what you call me

 

 

Calling fundamentalists extreme wackos? Doesn't even compare. It's just the fucking truth.

-Billy Graham is a fundamentalist. Jerry Falwell is a wacko. There are differences.

 

That's dandy. I know exactly where they're going, and if there's a God they won't need mittens.

-If you know exactly where there going, then that implies a belief in God. Why the confusion?

 

To hell with you and to hell with the horse you rode in on. And to hell with the church.

-Thanks for judging. And thanks for judging the church too. It's like you envision a church whose followers are nothing but mind-numbed sheep, bleeting for food and following like the proverbial lemming.

 

-We're not.

 

<---This concludes the Marney/Popick dialogue for this posting. It will resume at its earliest convience

[Vyce 0]

no no, BIG GAPING HOLES in the argument.

Yes, HIV is a lot smaller than sperm, but it is attached to the sperm and anyway, very unlikely to fit through a condom even being 1/400 the size of sperm.

Yes, this is correct.

 

HIV IS smaller than sperm.

 

Telling them not to use a condom, though, is just insanity.

 

Marney - you should audition to become a writer of Jack Chick tracts.

[Guest El Satanico]

Silly Catholics and their stupid rules. It's almost as bad as those wackos who won't take their kids to a doctor.

 

There's a chance condoms could fail, so yeah we shouldn't use them. After all no protection is better than risking a condom failing. Maybe they should just suggest they have sex with young boys, after all it works for the lead wackos.

[Dr. Tom 0]

Hi, I'm your TSM Catholic. 

Hi, I'm your TSM atheist who used to be a Catholic, and who doesn't miss it one little bit.

 

These people who advocate this have a faith.  They have a belief, and at the very least, they're attempting to abide by that belief.  It's not as if their intentions are cruel. 

Their intentions are absolutely cruel. The Church is LYING to people in Africa. They're deliberately spreading a gospel of bullshit just to enforce some silly doctrine about not wrapping your pecker. The Church had a real chance to do the right thing and actually *educate* the people in Africa, and save lives in the process. Instead, they chose to destroy those lives. It shouldn't be much of a surprise, really. This is the same group who stood by and continually excused serial rapists from their crimes against young boys. Sorry, but that "three tykes and you're out" policy the Church came up with does jack shit to solve the problem, and only serves to continue it while continuing to ruin people's lives.

 

So, to those who have said, "Fuck the Catholic Church," I can only say: Amen.

[Firestarter 0]

My stuff has a dash in front of it

Just use the damn Quote button.

 

Hey, I didn't know you were catholic!

You learn something new every day. I'm a Jesuit.

 

You, me, Tyler, and Kane can have a great eucharist!

Heaven forbid.

 

No, because I'm against what they're doing but I don't think its representative of the whole church, and is therefore invalid.

Fascinating; that's not the catechism I recall. The Church isn't a democracy and according to doctrine if its parishioners disagree with its leadership, even if it's 1,000,000,000 to 124, the leadership is right and the parishioners are sinning. The Apostolic Succession is guided by the Holy Spirit. Are you sure you're a Catholic?

 

Is ignorance evil? Or is ignorance simply ignorance.

According to Plato, that is exactly what evil is: ignorance or misunderstanding of the good.

 

They're not guilty of evil, they're guilty of ignorance. Those are vastly different moral outcomes.

Not for the dead.

 

Myself and Tyler would agree with you that the Cardinal is deluded, and we don't support his actions, so why should we be "fucked?"

Don't try to justify or excuse it.

 

what you didn't read is that there is a psychological conviction that these people who propound this theory have that outweighs the negative balance between costs and benefits... I was just describing how someone could advocate this rationally...NOT THAT I AGREE.

And in the same breath you were claiming that it's unfair to call people who do agree "wackos" and "extremists." As I said, I don't care about the reasons. I don't care why they think as they do. They are wrong, they are willfully causing needless death and suffering, and because of that they are evil.

 

If you call the bible a moldy old holy book, how can you call yourself a Catholic?

I try not to too often. It makes me break out in a horrible rash.

 

Apologists would decry the method of delivery but approve of the message. I decry both.

Wonderful. Yet you still justify their message through their beliefs and pretend that people who despise them and the institution they represent are being irrational. That is also what apologists do. Cf Munich, 1938.

 

Therefore, I am not what you call me

Yes you are.

 

Billy Graham is a fundamentalist. Jerry Falwell is a wacko. There are differences.

Billy Graham is also a wacko. In fact, he's a fucking lunatic, as well as anti-Semitic filth. Continue defending such trash if you must, but don't imagine it enhances your credibility.

 

If you know exactly where there going, then that implies a belief in God. Why the confusion?

No proof.

 

Thanks for judging

Welcome.

 

And thanks for judging the church too. It's like you envision a church whose followers are nothing but mind-numbed sheep, bleeting for food and following like the proverbial lemming.

 

We're not.

It doesn't matter what you are. Not to me, and not to your church.

[Firestarter 0]

Marney - you should audition to become a writer of Jack Chick tracts.

Like that Dark Dungeons nonsense? Why?

[NoCalMike 0]

The catholic church is way out of line here, and anyone trying to justify, explain, apologize or rationalize any of their actions is one major fucking idiot.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Marney,

 

Look. You claim I'm justifying their belief. No, no, no. I'm espousing a simple economic theory that shows how their belief is "rational" to themselves, since several people have wondered how someone could actually believe what they are saying. BIG DIFFERENCE. I am not saying that in the world scope of things this belief leads to a more beneficial outcome. We know it doesn't

 

And if its a sin to decide that some people up at the top don't know diddly and are playing their power games, then I'm a sinner and proud of it.

 

Besides, it's not like the Catholic church is going to remain unified to much longer. The split's coming.

 

And for everyone who wishes to lump all Catholics together and tell them to go "fuck themselves," we thank you for your broad understanding that all human are essentially the same and that they're unable to have their own thoughts.

[Firestarter 0]

So just what was your point again? That the people who believe these things believe in them? - that not all Catholics agree? - and that you're completely ignorant of your own catechisms? Wow, that's fucking profound. I'm glad you decided to stop by and enlighten us with your sage wisdom, Stephen Joseph.

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Billy Graham, Re: A.M. Rosenthal of the NY Times.

 

"But I have to lean a little bit, you know. I go and see friend of Mr. Rosenthal at The New York Times, and people of that sort. And all, I don't mean all the Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine. They swarm around me and are friendly to me. Because they know I am friendly to Israel and so forth. They don't know how I really feel about what they're doing to this country."

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Ignorant, no my sweet dear. I believe my words were "if disagreeing with the cardinal is a sin, then im a sinner." Maybe I'm just more protestant that catholic and don't realize it. Ha.

 

Must you always be right?

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

Here's some more from the Rev. regarding his belief in a Jewish "Stranglehold" over the American Media:

 

Rev. Billy Graham openly voiced a belief that Jews control the American media, calling it a "stranglehold" during a 1972 conversation with President Richard Nixon, according to a tape of the Oval Office meeting released Thursday by the National Archives.

"This stranglehold has got to be broken or the country's going down the drain," the nation's best-known preacher declared as he agreed with a stream of bigoted Nixon comments about Jews and their perceived influence in American life.

 

"You believe that?" Nixon says after the "stranglehold" comment.

 

"Yes, sir," Graham says.

 

"Oh, boy," replies Nixon. "So do I. I can't ever say that but I believe it."

 

"No, but if you get elected a second time, then we might be able to do something," Graham replies.

 

Original story: Chicago Tribune: 3-1-02

[Firestarter 0]

No, here are your exact words:

 

I'm against what they're doing but I don't think its representative of the whole church, and is therefore invalid

 

Now, first of all, I'm not your "sweet dear." Take your inane patronisation and stuff it in your shoe. Second, after pronouncing that the Church's position is "invalid" because parishioners disagree, yes, you have indeed proved yourself ignorant of basic theology. Third, one more time, my point was that the Church is spouting unscientific bullshit motivated by dogma and dressed up to look scientifically plausible to the ignorant, without any concern for human suffering and human lives - and that this is evil and the Church is wrong. Your brilliant explanation was that they take this position because they believe it's right. Well la de fucking da, I'm overjoyed we have you around to make shit like that ever so crystal clear.

 

Your post was meaningless and farcically unsubstantive. No, I don't always have to be right, but it'll take a hell of a lot more than your pointless tripe to prove me wrong.

 

Swallow your pride and shut your mouth.