U.N. Passes Resolution To Support U.S. in Iraq

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

- A clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment that was subject to U.N. monitoring and was suitable for continuing chemical and biological weapons research.

 

Congratulations, Mr. Kay, you've described every high school labratory in America.

[Vyce 0]

What happened with people who wanted to give UN inspectors more time. They said Iraq was the size of California, and it could take up too 2 years to search. After 4 months of the US searching, there was obviously never any WMD's at all.

Shhh!!!!! You're not supposed to mention that! Ever!

 

The correct stance to take is "OMG WEAPONS NEVER WERE THERE!!!!"

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

What happened with people who wanted to give UN inspectors more time. They said Iraq was the size of California, and it could take up too 2 years to search. After 4 months of the US searching, there was obviously never any WMD's at all.

Shhh!!!!! You're not supposed to mention that! Ever!

 

The correct stance to take is "OMG WEAPONS NEVER WERE THERE!!!!"

And what about the people who were REFUSING to give them more time?

 

Now these people WANT more time.

 

The roles are simply reversed.

[Justice 0]

What happened with people who wanted to give UN inspectors more time. They said Iraq was the size of California, and it could take up too 2 years to search. After 4 months of the US searching, there was obviously never any WMD's at all.

Shhh!!!!! You're not supposed to mention that! Ever!

 

The correct stance to take is "OMG WEAPONS NEVER WERE THERE!!!!"

And what about the people who were REFUSING to give them more time?

 

Now these people WANT more time.

 

The roles are simply reversed.

Tyler, there's a difference between trying to do an investigation where a government is actively trying to thwart your findings and one where they aren't. One is likely to be a failure and one isn't. I hope you can see the difference there.

[Justice 0]

- A clandestine network of laboratories and safe houses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment that was subject to U.N. monitoring and was suitable for continuing chemical and biological weapons research.

 

Congratulations, Mr. Kay, you've described every high school labratory in America.

Well thanks, Tyler. The major problem is they were supposed to report this to the UN. And from what it looks like when they say "Safe Houses", these probably weren't used for High Schoolers.

[Ripper 0]

Thats the main reason that I hate politics. The hypocracy of it all.

 

First one side says that UN inspectors can't find WMD because they gave the Iraqis too much of a warning and a chance to hide them and that the searches weren't thorough enough. "We can't just stand by and wait for them to use them while you guys take forever looking." Then after the war its "This place is huge. We need time to find the weapons.

 

The other side said "Hey, give the inspectors more time to continue their inspections let them try to find something. That place is huge." Post war: HEY, ITS BEEN 3 whole weeks. Why haven't you found the weapons!!! OMG LIARS!!!

 

And don't get me started on the people defending Arnold after blasting Clinton for basically the same accusations. And those defending Clinton blasting Arnold.

 

Fuck both the parties.

 

I'm voting for the first hippie I see.

[Dr. Tom 0]

Well thanks, Tyler. The major problem is they were supposed to report this to the UN. And from what it looks like when they say "Safe Houses", these probably weren't used for High Schoolers.

I also don't recall making deadly chemical and biological agents in chemistry class. I was pretty good at chemistry, especially the lab, and I never cooked up a batch of Anthrax or VX.

[Ripper 0]

Well thanks, Tyler. The major problem is they were supposed to report this to the UN. And from what it looks like when they say "Safe Houses", these probably weren't used for High Schoolers.

I also don't recall making deadly chemical and biological agents in chemistry class. I was pretty good at chemistry, especially the lab, and I never cooked up a batch of Anthrax or VX.

Well, you obviously had a pussy ass chem teacher.

[Dr. Tom 0]

Well, you obviously had a pussy ass chem teacher.

Obviously.

 

He was an ex-Marine and a weightlifter, but definitely a pussy. Yep.

[Ripper 0]

Well, you obviously had a pussy ass chem teacher.

Obviously.

 

He was an ex-Marine and a weightlifter, but definitely a pussy. Yep.

I don't care if he chewed glass and spit sand...or what ever that saying is...If he wasn't teaching you guys to make Anthrax, he just wasn't displaying some manfruit.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

When I was in high school chem, I spilled some substance on me that turned my skin green for a few weeks.

 

That's all...

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

If I remember correctly, Mustard gas is pretty much Cl2, and that's not even remotely hard to produce. Not comparable to VX, necessarily, but a decent-sized flask of that could seriously fuck up something like a subway car, or a bus. My high school lab was full of archaic toxic shit, it was great. What's better..I was the guy they trusted with the kids and chemicals when the teachers were gone. That semester was a beautiful thing.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

I also don't recall making deadly chemical and biological agents in chemistry class. I was pretty good at chemistry, especially the lab, and I never cooked up a batch of Anthrax or VX.

 

WHOA!!! They found VX and Anthrax!?!?!?!

 

Really?!?!

 

No.

[Justice 0]

I also don't recall making deadly chemical and biological agents in chemistry class. I was pretty good at chemistry, especially the lab, and I never cooked up a batch of Anthrax or VX.

 

WHOA!!! They found VX and Anthrax!?!?!?!

 

Really?!?!

 

No.

But those are the chemicals weapons that can be made in those facilities. You can;t fucking make those in a High School lab, which is what Dr. Tom is trying say. This is almost more toolish of you than the gun incident.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

But those are the chemicals weapons that can be made in those facilities. You can;t fucking make those in a High School lab, which is what Dr. Tom is trying say. This is almost more toolish of you than the gun incident.

 

Where in the passage does it say that they had the chemicals/ingredients to do that in these labratories?

 

Hint: don't even look. It doesn't.

 

If you had the substances, you could use any high school lab to make those chemicals. It's hardly an amazing find.

[Guest LooseCannon]

I also don't recall making deadly chemical and biological agents in chemistry class. I was pretty good at chemistry, especially the lab, and I never cooked up a batch of Anthrax or VX.

 

WHOA!!! They found VX and Anthrax!?!?!?!

 

Really?!?!

 

No.

But those are the chemicals weapons that can be made in those facilities. You can;t fucking make those in a High School lab, which is what Dr. Tom is trying say. This is almost more toolish of you than the gun incident.

Anthrax is a biological agent, and so you'd need an actual strain of anthrax to "make" it. And so I suppose Tyler's point has merit there. I have no idea whether or not one can make VX in a high school labratory, though.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Also, other wonderful discoveries by Kay...

 

- Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have helped Iraq resume uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation.

 

Basically, he's found the remains of dormant programs. This is the huge story about the scientist whose backyard was being used to store equipment and papers, which turned out to be not-so-huge of a story when he told everyone that he hadn't been contacted since before the Gulf War.

 

They found nothing. You're making mountains out of molehills.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

I have no idea whether or not one can make VX in a high school labratory, though

 

What's awesome about this is that they never said that those labs could be used to create VX, either! That was a complete PRESUMPTION by Tom about the findings, not something Kay had said!

[Justice 0]

But those are the chemicals weapons that can be made in those facilities. You can;t fucking make those in a High School lab, which is what Dr. Tom is trying say. This is almost more toolish of you than the gun incident.

 

Where in the passage does it say that they had the chemicals/ingredients to do that in these labratories?

 

Hint: don't even look. It doesn't.

 

If you had the substances, you could use any high school lab to make those chemicals. It's hardly an amazing find.

More the fact that Iraq failed to report said laboratories to the UN in light that they could be used to make said weapons does make it a find.

 

I misinterpretted Tom's statement, but it doesn't mean that you are any more right. The fact that these aren't used in High Schools and weren't reported to the UN would make one suspicious of their nature.

 

What's awesome about this is that they never said that those labs could be used to create VX, either! That was a complete PRESUMPTION by Tom about the findings, not something Kay had said!

 

That doesn't mean VX isn't among those. Considering it's one of the most prominent chemical weapons out there generally means it is one of those included when someone says "For the research of Chemical weapons". Even if VX gas can't be produced there, deadly chemical weapons obviously could be produced there, and they are all deadly. But hey, if you want to grasp for straws, go right ahead; It's fun to watch you defend Saddam's claim of having no WMDs.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

More the fact that Iraq failed to report said laboratories to the UN in light that they could be used to make said weapons does make it a find.

 

A find, yes, but hardly a new find. We've known for months that they had the groundwork for dormant programs that could be possibly theoretically ressurrected. The Kay report gives nothing else to possibly suggest that it was in use.

[Justice 0]

More the fact that Iraq failed to report said laboratories to the UN in light that they could be used to make said weapons does make it a find.

 

A find, yes, but hardly a new find. We've known for months that they had the groundwork for dormant programs that could be possibly theoretically ressurrected. The Kay report gives nothing else to possibly suggest that it was in use.

New research on biological weapons-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin -- none of which were declared to the U.N.

 

Well, considering this is new research, one would think they had used it. And if they left the labs in working conditions, what makes you think they didn't intend for them to be used again?

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

And by the way, GOD ;wlkadsjfsao;dkjf;lskadjfING CHRIST.

 

The point of this -- and it ISN'T disputable, regardless of how many high school labratories we've found -- is that Iraq WASN'T an imminent threat to our nation. Believe it or not, we could've waited for multilateral support before we decided to take out their leadership. They certainly didn't have nukes on them, and they likely didn't have any more than a warhead or two of mustard gas. With the U.N. inspectors in the country forcing them to move shit around quite a bit, God knows they weren't getting any work done. Why the hell couldn't we have built up a United Nations-backed coalition based on the premise that Saddam Hussein is a horrible despot who needed to be removed?

 

Why lie and say Iraq has "tons of VX gas" etc. like Rummy did? Why go in front of the U.N. and parade falsified documents about buying uranium from Africa?

 

Also, more about the Kay briefing that isn't in that article.

 

http://www.ceip.org/files/nonprolif/templa...asp?NewsID=5442

 

Buried in the October 2 congressional testimony of David Kay were two bombshells: all the Iraq Survey Group evidence collected to date indicates that there were not any active programs to develop or produce chemical or nuclear weapons.

 

In the middle of a paragraph halfway through his testimony, Kay presents what should have been his lead finding: "Information found to date suggests that Iraq's large-scale capability to develop, produce, and fill new CW munitions was reduced - if not entirely destroyed - during Operations Desert Storm and Desert Fox, 13 years of UN sanctions and UN inspections." Similarly, three paragraphs into Kay's description of Saddam's intention to develop nuclear weapons, he says: "to date we have not uncovered evidence that Iraq undertook significant post-1998 steps to actually build nuclear weapons or produce fissile material."

 

It is understandable that Mr. Kay did not wish to highlight these findings. They are not mentioned in his concluding points, nor in his opening summary. They directly refute the two main charges of administration officials before the war as well as the claim that UN inspections were not working. It now appears from everything we have been able to learn since the war that the combination of UN sanctions, inspections, and the military strikes of 1991 and 1998 effectively destroyed Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons programs and prevented their reconstruction. The same appears to be true for the biological weapons program and the missile program, but there is still more to be learned about these efforts.

 

Kay is stuck in a fundamental contradiction: he is both salesman and fact-finder for the administration. No matter how high his personal integrity, this dual role fatally compromises his mission and credibility. As salesman, he is compelled to put the best possible spin on his investigation. Thus his report features bits and pieces of testimony from Iraqi scientists and officials that support the administration pre-war claims that there were active programs and large, ready-to-use stockpiles of weapons. Unfortunately, even these tidbits only support the Kay conclusion that Saddam had the intention of restoring these programs if he could, not that they actually existed pre-war. Kay does not present nor discuss the widely-reported fact that all of the Iraqi scientists and officials now in custody have said that there were no active programs. This does not mean that such statements are true, but they should at least have been mentioned and evaluated in his testimony.

 

Hey, if you guys are allowed to source Heritage and shit and get away with it, I don't want to hear an ounce of bitching about the source.

[Justice 0]

The thing is, Tyler, if we couldn't get multilateral support when Iraq was shown as a threat, what makes you think we would when it wouldn't be? Seriously, this is the greatest mystery to me. Everyone seemed completely content to let the guy terrorize his own people as long as it didn't get close to them, so why would they even think about this? If anything they would have gotten even MORE resistance. Please explain that to me.

 

And a clarrifacation:

 

Why go in front of the U.N. and parade falsified documents about buying uranium from Africa?

 

Isn't the Uranium thing disputed by a guy who admitted he was a bad investigator and went completely through public channels? I find issue with that.

 

And a quote from the actual report:

With regard to biological warfare activities, which has been one of our two initial areas of focus, ISG teams are uncovering significant information - including research and development of BW-applicable organisms, the involvement of Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) in possible BW activities, and deliberate concealment activities. All of this suggests Iraq after 1996 further compartmentalized its program and focused on maintaining smaller, covert capabilities that could be activated quickly to surge the production of BW agents.

 

No, they weren't mass producing these things, Tyler. That paragraph was correct. But they were still researching on a smaller scale Bio Weapons after 1996 and they obviuosly had the capability to quickly increase their production. Hell, when really look at it, do you really need a ton of Bio-weapons to cause terror quickly and effectively?

 

Edit: Even more after a close look at the statement you posted. That only refers to the production and research of Chemical weapons. That doesn't at all state that they didn't have a sufficent amount of Chemical weapons already and that building more would have only been Redundant. That statement means absolute jack when you look at it.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Isn't the Uranium thing disputed by a guy who admitted he was a bad investigator and went completely through public channels? I find issue with that.

 

If so, why did the President retract the statement?

 

No, they weren't mass producing these things, Tyler. That paragraph was correct. But they were still researching on a smaller scale Bio Weapons after 1996 and they obviuosly had the capability to quickly increase their production. Hell, when really look at it, do you really need a ton of Bio-weapons to cause terror quickly and effectively?

 

So they were studying germs. Whoopity freakin' do, we knew these guys weren't a bunch of saints. They weren't a threat to anyone's national security, much less ours as we had so vehemently claimed in front of the world.

 

Even your rationale:

 

The thing is, Tyler, if we couldn't get multilateral support when Iraq was shown as a threat, what makes you think we would when it wouldn't be? Seriously, this is the greatest mystery to me. Everyone seemed completely content to let the guy terrorize his own people as long as it didn't get close to them, so why would they even think about this? If anything they would have gotten even MORE resistance. Please explain that to me.

 

...fails to address the point that the CLAIM WAS FUCKING FALSE! These countries said that quite a few times, and if we were actually going on true, proven material (i.e. his use of chem weapons on the Kurds, proven history of torture etc., AND disobedience to U.N. resolutions in declarations [hey, why not throw that in there?]), they likely would've been much more likely to comply. You and Marney will dispute that, as will all war-hungry conservatives, but how will you prove it? WE DIDN'T EVEN TRY.

 

 

EDIT:

Edit: Even more after a close look at the statement you posted. That only refers to the production and research of Chemical weapons. That doesn't at all state that they didn't have a sufficent amount of Chemical weapons already and that building more would have only been Redundant. That statement means absolute jack when you look at it.

 

I'm sure if they had these chemicals, he might... well... PUT IT IN HIS FUCKING REPORT!

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Oh, and hey, more goodness keeps popping up!

 

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/l...,1,581790.story

 

WASHINGTON — A suspicious sample of biological material recently found by U.S. weapons hunters in Iraq probably was purchased legally from a U.S. organization in the 1980s and is a substance that has never been successfully used to produce a weapon, experts said.

 

The discovery of the hidden vial of C. botulinum Okra B, which was revealed in an Oct. 2 interim report by chief U.S. weapons hunter David Kay, was highlighted in speeches by President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell and other senior administration officials as proof that President Saddam Hussein's government maintained an illicit bio-weapons program before the war.

 

The significance of the vial is one of several elements of Kay's report that are being called into question by U.S. biowarfare experts and former United Nations weapons inspectors. Although most praised Kay for uncovering numerous cases in which Iraq hid suspicious equipment and activities from U.N. inspectors, they said the report appeared misleading in several areas.

 

Overall, Kay, who returned to Iraq last week, reported that he had found no evidence so far to indicate that Hussein's regime had reconstituted its chemical weapons program, or had taken significant steps to build nuclear weapons or produce fissile material, after the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

 

He found considerable evidence, however, that Hussein secretly had begun an extensive effort after 1998 to design missiles that violated U.N. rules; had launched numerous schemes to procure missile technology and other prohibited equipment from foreign suppliers, including North Korea; and had maintained a clandestine network of about two dozen small laboratories, run by Iraq's intelligence services, which Kay said contained equipment "suitable" for chemical or biological research.

 

The single vial of botulinum B had been stored in an Iraqi scientist's kitchen refrigerator since 1993. It appears to have been produced by a nonprofit Virginia biological resource center, the American Type Culture Collection, which legally exported botulinum and other biological material to Iraq under a Commerce Department license in the late 1980s.

 

The vial of botulinum B — about 2 inches high and half an inch wide — was the only suspicious biological material Kay reported finding. It was sealed and stored in the scientist's home with 96 other apparently benign vials of single-cell proteins and biopesticides.

 

In his 13-page declassified report, Kay said "a biological agent" could be produced from the botulinum sample. Speaking to reporters at the White House the next day, Oct. 3, Bush said the war in Iraq was justified and cited Kay's discovery of the advanced missile programs, clandestine labs and what he called "a live strain of deadly agent botulinum" as proof that Hussein was "a danger to the world."

 

But Dr. David Franz, a former chief U.N. biological weapons inspector who is considered among America's foremost experts on biowarfare agents, said there was no evidence that Iraq or anyone else has ever succeeded in using botulinum B for biowarfare.

 

"The Soviets dropped it [as a goal] and so did we, because we couldn't get it working as a weapon," said Franz, who is the former commander of the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases at Ft. Detrick, Md., the Pentagon's lead laboratory for bioweapons defense research.

 

"From the weapons side, it's not something to be concerned about," agreed Dr. Raymond Zilinskas, another former U.N. inspector who is now director of the chemical and biological weapons nonproliferation program at the Monterey Institute in California.

 

Botulinum B is a source of botulism, a common form of deadly food poisoning that usually results from improper canning. It disperses quickly in the air, however, and thus is not effective as an airborne agent for weapons, Zilinskas said.

 

Asked for comment, a U.S. official who consulted with government experts said Kay "didn't oversell this."

 

"He stated a simple fact. What Dr. Kay said was botulinum B can be used to produce a biological agent," he said, speaking on condition of anonymity. "Can that agent be used to produce a biological weapon? You bet."

 

During the 1980s, Iraq produced botulinum A, a highly lethal neurotoxin that causes respiratory failure and can lead to death in 24 hours. According to U.N. reports, Iraqi scientists produced more than 19,000 liters of botulinum A and poured about 10,000 liters of the toxin into missile warheads and 400-pound bombs.

 

But U.N. inspectors found no evidence that Iraq ever produced botulinum B in its laboratories. A CIA spokesman said Kay has not yet traced the origin of the vial he obtained. But Zilinskas said the sample almost certainly came from American Type Culture Collection. "We know they bought their botulinum strains from the United States, including B," he said.

 

In 1994, an investigation by the House Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee determined that American Type Culture Collection had been a primary supplier of botulinum, anthrax and other pathogens to Iraq. The organization, based in Manassas, Va., shipped at least seven batches of botulinum strains to Baghdad in May 1986 and September 1988, according to records released by the committee.

 

Nancy Wysocki, a spokeswoman for the bioresource center, said there was no way for her to know if her organization had exported the vial of botulinum B found in Iraq. But she said all botulinum and other exports to Iraq at the time had been approved by the Commerce Department. "Iraq was not an embargoed country in the 1980s," she said.

 

The circumstances of the botulinum B find were one reason for Kay's concern. Some of the other vials found in the scientist's refrigerator had labels indicating they came from Al Hakam, which was one of Iraq's chief bioweapons production labs before 1991. In addition, Kay said the scientist also was asked by the government to store other biological material, including a virulent strain of anthrax. He briefly did, but then returned the material. The scientist has passed a polygraph test, Kay said.

 

Terence Taylor, another former U.N. biowarfare inspector who now heads the Washington office of the International Institute for Strategic Studies, a nonpartisan think tank, said it is too early to dismiss the discovery of the vial.

 

"Just because botulinum B has not been used in a weapons program elsewhere, and we never found evidence of it in the 1990s, that does not necessarily rule out" transforming it into a weapon, Taylor said. "There's not enough detail in Kay's [unclassified] statement. And there's a lot we still don't know about their weapons programs."

 

In addition to the doubts about the botulinum B, several outside experts are also questioning the significance of Kay's claim that he uncovered covert "new research" in Iraq on such potential biowarfare agents as Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever as well as "continuing work" on ricin and aflatoxin that were not declared to U.N. inspectors.

 

CCHF, as the hemorrhagic fever virus is known, is common in Iraq. The World Health Organization reports that the disease, which can cause intense bleeding and death, is "endemic in many countries in Africa, Europe and Asia." There is no evidence that Iraq or anyone else has weaponized it.

 

"There are public health reasons to work with it in that part of the world," said Franz, the former bioweapons lab chief. "I wouldn't find it alarming that they're working on that."

 

Brucella, which chiefly affects livestock, is also endemic to Iraq. U.S. military scientists weaponized the bacterium during the Cold War but did not consider it effective because it is slow acting and can be treated with antibiotics. U.N. inspectors have not found evidence that Iraq worked on Brucella as a weapon.

 

Aflatoxin causes vomiting and other incapacitating symptoms but is rarely lethal in humans. The fungal toxin is chiefly known for causing liver cancer. Iraq produced aflatoxin as a weapon in the 1980s, but nonproliferation program director Zilinskas said it has never been clear why.

 

"It's not particularly toxic, and its primary effects are long term," he said. "My feeling to this day is that it was a scam that the scientists put over on the decision-makers because it's easy to produce and the decision-makers wouldn't know it is useless as a biological weapon."

 

Hussein's regime also had sought to weaponize ricin, which can be highly lethal if inhaled, but ended the program in 1990 after field tests failed to kill animals, according to U.N. reports.

 

"They gave up using ricin as a weapon," Franz said. "That was the right decision, in my opinion." Because it is so difficult to produce the proper powdered form for aerosol distribution, he added, "you almost need to be hit by a brick of it to kill you."

 

Former U.N. inspectors also questioned Kay's plan to search Iraq's 130 known ammunition storage sites for further evidence of chemical weapons; he has scoured 10 so far. Kay reported: "As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordnance and [was] to store it at the same [sites] that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search is enormous."

 

U.N. inspectors found, however, that virtually all of Iraq's "special munitions," as chemical and biological weapons were known, carried distinctive, if inconsistent, markings. They included numbers, a black stripe, a white circle or a painted letter.

 

"Kay's comment gives the impression [that chemical weapons] were kept with conventional munitions and he'll have to check every shell," said another former U.N. inspector, who asked not to be identified. "That's baloney. They kept them separated from regular munitions, they had separate security, and they had a separate chain of command. They were never co-located with conventional munitions."

[Justice 0]

So they were studying germs. Whoopity freakin' do, we knew these guys weren't a bunch of saints. They weren't a threat to anyone's national security, much less ours as we had so vehemently claimed in front of the world.

 

Well, when they have a recorded interest in Bioweapons, it does become a big deal. Christ, I can't believe you are fucking writing this off as "Well, they're evil. What can they do just studying germs?"

 

...fails to address the point that the CLAIM WAS FUCKING FALSE! These countries said that quite a few times, and if we were actually going on true, proven material (i.e. his use of chem weapons on the Kurds, proven history of torture etc., AND disobedience to U.N. resolutions in declarations [hey, why not throw that in there?]), they likely would've been much more likely to comply. You and Marney will dispute that, as will all war-hungry conservatives, but how will you prove it? WE DIDN'T EVEN TRY.

 

Tyler, I would have gone in a second had he done that. But what the fuck will the French or Germans, who have billons of dollars in Oil interests with Saddam, care if he did some bad shit. Am I mistaken when they allowed Iraq on the Human Rights Committee at the UN, or was that some other country that constantly abuses their people? I mean, chemical weapons used on the Kurds? That was over a decade ago and your whole argument says he doesn't have Chemical weapons, so what the fuck does it matter?

 

And the claim isn't fucking false, Tyler. You have one little things saying they might not produce Chemical Weapons anymore. Congrads. That doesn't mean the didn't already have enough and that totally ignores the Bioweapons stuff.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

And the claim isn't fucking false, Tyler. You have one little things saying they might not produce Chemical Weapons anymore. Congrads. That doesn't mean the didn't already have enough and that totally ignores the Bioweapons stuff.

 

But NOTHING you've said that has been backed up with evidence -- evidence that isn't a critical reading of another man's reports -- that states that they DO.

 

In this case, the burden of proof is in YOUR court.

 

And hey, while we're at it, let's get in the time warp machine and look at quotes from Bush's OWN ADMINISTRATION in 2001.

 

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm

[Dr. Tom 0]

I have no idea whether or not one can make VX in a high school labratory, though

 

What's awesome about this is that they never said that those labs could be used to create VX, either! That was a complete PRESUMPTION by Tom about the findings, not something Kay had said!

What? Are you being deliberately thick?

 

My post is in reponse to this post of yours:

Congratulations, Mr. Kay, you've described every high school labratory in America.

My point was that I don't remember making deadly chemical and biological agents when I was in high school, so maybe something a little more important was found. I figured that would be easy to see, but you're obviously too busy patting yourself on the back for getting one over on me. Here's a hint: you didn't. You're just being a cretin.

[Justice 0]

And the claim isn't fucking false, Tyler. You have one little things saying they might not produce Chemical Weapons anymore. Congrads. That doesn't mean the didn't already have enough and that totally ignores the Bioweapons stuff.

 

But NOTHING you've said that has been backed up with evidence -- evidence that isn't a critical reading of another man's reports -- that states that they DO.

 

In this case, the burden of proof is in YOUR court.

 

And hey, while we're at it, let's get in the time warp machine and look at quotes from Bush's OWN ADMINISTRATION in 2001.

 

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm

*Laughs*

 

This stuff is great. Powell still says they have the things but they may not be able to deliver it as well as they could 10 years ago. That's pretty much a "No-Duh" answer, Tyler. To say that the Iraqi military can't do what it could 10 years ago is an understatement: This things was a massive machine that was a serious threat to any country near it and it wasn't known whether or not the US could actually stop it.

 

But just because he says that the military isn't as strong as it used to be doesn't make it a non-threat. It could still cause some real damage in the Middle East even if it wasn't up to it's Pre-Gulf War strength. If you want to debate that with me, you can try but I think we'll both agree that under Saddam's control they could still do damage and upset things even more.

 

Secondly: Power never said that they stopped trying to produce the weapons or that they didn't have the weapons anymore. In fact, he comes out and says both:

 

And even though we have no doubt in our mind that the Iraqi regime is pursuing programs to develop weapons of mass destruction -- chemical, biological and nuclear -- I think the best intelligence estimates suggest that they have not been terribly successful. There's no question that they have some stockpiles of some of these sorts of weapons still under their control, but they have not been able to break out, they have not been able to come out with the capacity to deliver these kinds of systems or to actually have these kinds of systems that is much beyond where they were 10 years ago.

 

Now after 9-11, suddenly delivery of such weapons doesn't become a problem when you have dozens of willing terrorist groups to them in themselves, do you? But hey, this is just taking stuff out of context or just trying hard to turn it your own way.

 

The LA Times article is much better for your cause, admittedly. I believe this is before they flushed their credibility down teh toliet, right ? Anyways, they do admit that while not effective weapons they could be used as Bioweapons. They never deny the fact that Iraq was working on a longer-range rocket delievery system, which does make you wonder what exactly they were going to deliver with it. Just as well, just because the two diseases are indigenous to the region doesn't mean that they weren't being worked on as weapons. It just shows that they were easy to find and procure samples of. But certainly a better article than the above one.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

The above one was for shits and giggles.

 

I'm still trying to find a piece of your argument that is backed up by any solid evidence outside of percieved logic and total inferrence.