ultra-fascinating behind scenes info on...

[bobobrazil1984 0]

What were they smoking? Who's dumbass idea was it to bring back Norman Osborn? Why did it drag out so long? Who made the various calls? What were the writers thinking during this time? how stupid were the editors? What was one of the original ideas to end the whole thing (two words: time loop)? Just how much does bob harras suck?

 

Some of you may have already read it, but here's the 35 part (yes 35 part) look at the Clone Saga, "Life of Reilly," filled with tons of "backstage" (for lack of a better term ) information, mostly from one of the associate editors (and writer towards the end), Glenn Greenburg. His comments are clearly marked in bold and formatted differently so you can skip right to them w/o reading the synopses if you want. The guy actually kept ALL his memos from teh period, and draws from them extensively.

 

It's really fascinating reading, the same way one of Dave Meltzer's history articles on the fall of a great company are... in other words, in a history trainwreck way.

 

http://www.newcomicreviews.com/GHM/special...s/LifeOfReilly/

 

Just to get yall started off on some of the info in here, I'll post one of the more interesting bits of info, from part 22:

 

[ GLENN'S COMMENTS : Okay, it's "Clone Memo" time, and it's gonna be a long stretch this time around. We're now up to the solution that, for a while, looked like it would actually be used.

I vividly remember the day it was introduced. It was early July, in 1995. I was actually out of the office that day, sick and bedridden. I had called in later in the day to check with my boss, Tom Brevoort, and asked him if any progress had been made in solving the clone dilemma. Brevoort told me that he had suggested an idea that surprised and intrigued everyone on the editorial team (that would be Spider-Man Group Editor in Chief Bob Budiansky, Associate Editor Eric Fein, and Assistant Editor Mark Bernardo). I asked Brevoort what the idea was, and he summed it up in two words: "Time Loop.

 

In a nutshell, the idea was that neither Peter Parker nor Ben Reilly was the clone - both were the original. How, you ask, could this be possible? Glad you asked. Brace yourselves, because here we go.

 

The idea was that Peter Parker would somehow be sent back in time five years, where he would co-exist with the Peter Parker of that time, and somehow be led to believe that he was the clone. Peter would then spend the next five years living as Ben Reilly. When Peter/Ben reaches the point in 1996 (the year this story would have taken place) where he is sent back in time to become Ben, the "time loop" is closed, and there is only one Peter Parker left in the present - the one who's lived the past five years as Ben Reilly. The Ben Reilly of 1996 then regains all the memories of Peter's adventures from AMAZING SPIDER-MAN #149 on, thus validating over 20 years of Spider-Man stories and (hopefully) pleasing longtime fans.

 

This scenario met the most important requirements laid down by Bob Budiansky, which were that Peter Parker must be restored as Spider-Man, but Ben Reilly must be validated as a character, as well. Ben couldn't be written off as just another clone that was lying around, or a robot, or something else that could be easily and casually dismissed.

 

After Brevoort told me the concept, I was silent on the phone for a good long moment. I was shocked. I was intrigued. I immediately saw the potential this idea had, and was very excited about helping to develop it further. I became its biggest cheerleader around the office, defending it from any and all criticism and skepticism.

 

As time passed, we began refining the idea. I pointed out to everyone that there was one key thing we had to get around: the Marvel Universe rule that whenever a character goes back in time, he or she is not going to end up in the same time line he or she left. A new time line, virtually identical to the original one, is created by the trip through time, and that's the one the character is visiting. The best example of this rule is MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #50, wherein the Thing went back in time to the earliest days of the Fantastic Four, as part of an experiment to cure himself. The Thing realized by the end of the story that even if his younger self was cured, it would have no bearing on his current self, because the younger Thing who received the cure was from an alternate time line created by the Thing's journey back in time. Gaaaah! Hope I haven't lost you here! This is the simplest explanation I could come up with!

 

Anyway, the end result of this rule was that no trip to the past could cause any changes to the Marvel Universe of the present. And under this rule, if Peter Parker was sent back five years, he wouldn't land in the time line that he left. We had to get around this rule, so the suggestion was made that Judas Traveller and Scrier could be brought back into the story line and be responsible for the time loop. The rationale was that these characters were presented as being so vastly powerful - Traveller had once said that he wasn't God, but he was pretty close - that we could just establish that they were able to sidestep this universal rule and make sure that Peter stayed in the same time line when he was sent back in time. That seemed to work, so we went with it. Then, a short time later, I had a new idea that I felt could be inserted into the story, so I asked for a lunch meeting with Brevoort and Budiansky to present it to them. We had the meeting, they thought that my idea could work, so I wrote up an 8-page memo that incorporated everything into one streamlined story treatment.

 

In short, my idea was that we would reveal that Traveller wasn't exaggerating his closeness to God - that he, in fact, was a fallen angel, "an agent of good who somehow lost his way, and, as punishment, was sentenced to spend his existence wandering the Earth and learning the nature of good and evil." In bringing Traveller back into the story line, we would establish that he now believes in the inherent goodness of mankind, thanks to the example set by Spider-Man, that most human of super heroes. Convinced of mankind's goodness, Traveller would declare that he planned to use his powers to eradicate all evil from the Earth - at which point the enigmatic Scrier would say, "I cannot allow that to happen." We had previously seen that Scrier was working behind Traveller's back, perhaps undermining Traveller, and now we would see why. Scrier reveals his true self to Traveller.

 

Other important events would be Mary Jane's miscarriage, and the fact that Ben Reilly is beginning to have flashes of "memories that couldn't possibly be his, namely because they belong to Peter Parker!" Eventually, Peter and Ben would discover that neither of them is the clone - both test positive as the genuine article!

 

The rest of the scenario involved Traveller and Scrier, now clearly in direct conflict with each other, having concocted a contest - one in which winner would take all. "The contest, like so many of Traveller's recent experiments, would revolve around Spider-Man... (it) would settle Traveller and Scrier's dispute about the inherent nature of mankind. Spider-Man will represent all of humanity, and his actions during the contest will determine the outcome... and the winner." If Spider-Man's actions proved Traveller's theory that mankind is inherently good, then Traveller would win the contest and be allowed to remove all evil from Earth. If Spider-Man failed, then Scrier would win and Traveller would have to end his studies and would owe Scrier a very special payment.

 

Peter and Ben refuse to participate, but they're not given any choice in the matter. In a great show of power, as Ben Reilly and Mary Jane watch, Scrier blasts Peter Parker into oblivion! Peter is apparently disintegrated, gone forever! A horrified and anguished Ben, with vengeance in his heart, closes in to tear Scrier apart. But then Scrier asks what Ben would give to have Peter back. Would he offer his soul and risk eternal damnation, just to restore Peter to life? "Having come to love Peter as a friend and a 'brother,' and unable to bear the sorrow of Mary Jane, one of his closest and dearest friends, Ben says that he would be willing to give anything to bring Peter back... even his own soul."

 

And here came the kicker: "Scrier laughs, and finally reveals himself to Ben (and the readers) in his true form: MEPHISTO! He says, 'Okay, Peter's alive. In fact, he never died! Because you're Peter! You always have been Peter!"

 

Here's more: "Mephisto reveals that he never really disintegrated Peter, he just sent him back five years in time, de-aged him, stripped him of his last five years of memories, and placed him in the smokestack, where he would be found by the Jackal... Following his own agenda, the Jackal would then make Peter believe that he was the clone! This Peter would go off to become Ben Reilly, while the Peter Parker who was already living in that time period would continue in New York as Spider-Man."

 

My story treatment went on (and on and on and on), to discuss the ramifications of these revelations, how everything fit in with established continuity, the backstory of Traveller and Scrier's relationship, and so forth. Traveller would have lost the contest, because in saving Peter, Ben was in essence saving himself, thus supporting Mephisto's argument that mankind is at its core a very selfish beast. The "very special price" that Traveller had to pay Mephisto was his own soul.

 

I wrote in conclusion: "We know that involving Mephisto and all the metaphysical stuff is a bit far removed from the usual Spider-Man type of story, but the mysticism and metaphysics have been an undeniably prominent part of the series since Traveller and Scrier first appeared. The plan is to pull out all the stops, use these elements to tell and finish off the story once and for all, and then return to the types of Spider-Man stories we're all more familiar (and comfortable) with... After Scrier is revealed to be Mephisto, and Traveller fulfills his role in the saga, and we finish off this story line, we never have to see either of them again in the pages of Spider-Man comic."

 

Looking back on all this, I think it would have made for an intriguing, compelling, thought-provoking story... but not anything that should ever be done in a Spider-Man comic. In fact, what's so blatant to me now is how Spider-Man is completely overshadowed by the events of this story - he's little more than a plot device, a pawn. And that's not what the readers want to see. Hell, it's not what I would want to see, either! But somehow, I just got so wrapped up in this concept and the story possibilities and the fact that it solved so many of our problems that I lost sight of what makes for a good Spider-Man story. Obviously, I wasn't the only one, since Brevoort came up with the initial idea and Budiansky was onboard for it. But having presented myself in so many installments of this column as one of the very few "voices of reason" during the clone saga, I have to take the blame for being a key part of the "Time Loop" scenario.

 

Bob Budiansky distributed my story treatment to the Spider-Man writers and Marvel's on-staff continuity cop, Peter Sanderson, who responded with a 7-page memo of his own detailing what worked about the scenario and how things that didn't work could be made to work. This too was sent to the writers. Then Budiansky wrote up a 13-page master overview of his own that was distributed to everyone working on the Spider-Man books. This overview mapped out the whole "Time Loop" saga and proposed that the story line would be brought to a close in the Spider-Man books published in April of 1996.

 

Next time, I'll discuss why this scenario, which came so close to becoming a reality, was ultimately abandoned, and what came along to replace it. ]

[starvenger 0]

the link appears dead...

[bobobrazil1984 0]

works for me...

 

Life of Reilly

[Betty Houle 0]

I read some of this. Interesting stuff. It marks a time in my life when I was a comic fanatic (I read very littl nowadays).

 

Next: Someone needs to do a behindthescenes of the making and developing of the Hobgoblin! Who knew what? How did Stern come up with the idea? Why did they change it?

[Kaertos 0]

I read this entire series and found it fascinating. I read a lot of the beginning of the Clone Saga, but was so disappointed that I quit collecting comics. Not just Spider-Man... comics.

 

I remember reading on some web site or another that Norman Osbourne was back and I felt... well, betrayed. I remember lording it over my buddy who read X-Men that when a major person died in Spider-Man, they stayed dead. My best examples were Gwen Stacy and Norman. Then they brought him back to get out of the Clone Saga that should never have gone as long as it had.

[Steviekick 0]

The clone saga was the kicker to everything that was wrong with comics in the 90s...too many "hype" events that we're so drawn out and poorly executed that they didn't help the business (Death of Superman, Batman's back, Superman's new powers, anything by Rob Liefeld...).

 

The Clone Saga is like Marvel's equivalent of the InVasion angle.

[starvenger 0]

I've only reached chapter 28, and I'm into the Bob Harras era of the Spider-Books. It's insane that this saga spans 3 EICs, 3 group editors, and shitloads of writers and artists.

 

btw, Writer X has to be Hackie... er, Mackie.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

Another excerpt of insanity, from the period in marvel that made WCW and WWE right now look like the model of order!

 

Here now, with a special thought on this particular skeletal turn of events, is Clone King, former Marvel EIC, and writer of SPIDER-GIRL (Marvel Comics), RANDY O'DONNELL IS THE M@N and MR. RIGHT (both from Image Comics), Tom DeFalco...

 

TOM: I don't remember those days with any degree of fondness. The original master plan for the clone saga was a simple three-stage story: Ben returns, is declared the original and becomes the new Spider-Man, until the story's final arc which would show Peter returning to reclaim his identity and his life.

After I was fired as Editor in Chief, it was decided that Ben really was the original, and a new master plan was conceived. This plan was soon discarded. New plans seemed to appear on an almost daily basis, and they were replaced just as quickly. As the pressures to find a "solution" increased, so did the phone calls from the Spider-Editors.

 

On most mornings the phone would ring about ten after nine, and I'd be in a conference call until around one o'clock. I'd get a half hour to forty-five minutes for lunch (but I usually just gobbled aspirins and tried to reclaim my temper) and then the conference call would continue to around six o'clock. (Although I recall one night when it ended around nine-thirty.) And that's when I was supposed to start writing!

 

Since I wasn't getting much work done, I eventually put my foot down and informed the powers-that-were that I wasn't going to answer my phone before one o'clock. I don't think they were pleased, but they also didn't want me to miss my deadlines, either.

 

Every plot was discussed to the point of absurdity. Individual panels were subjected to excruciating debate, and you were expected to do a few rewrites on every story.

 

If I remember correctly, we had discussed my next plot, gone over it panel by panel, and had finally agreed to what was supposed to happen in it. I typed it up that night and faxed it in the following morning. Everyone managed to read it before the one o'clock conference call.

 

I seem to remember that Bob Budiansky was pretty happy with the plot. He had only one question, "What about the skeleton in the smokestack?"

 

"The WHAT?!" I asked. That's when I learned that somewhere between the time my plot was finalized and I delivered it - a period that couldn't have been longer than twenty-four hours - someone had proposed the "skeleton in the smokestack" subplot, Bob agreed to it, and decided that it should begin in the issue that preceded mine.

 

"Let me get this straight," I asked in what I'm sure was a less than civil tone, "The issue before mine ends with the discovery of the original clone's skeleton in a smokestack and you want to know how I intend to address this cliffhanger in my story."

 

"That's right," he responded. "What are you going to do?"

 

"Do we know if this skeleton actually is the original clone?"

 

"No."

 

"Do we know if it's fake?"

 

"No."

 

"Do we know ANYTHING about it?"

 

"No."

 

"Do we have the slightest idea WHERE WE ARE GOING WITH THIS #%^@& SUBPLOT?"

 

"Errrr...no."

 

"And you want to know HOW I'm going to address it?"

 

"Yes".

 

"ARRRRGHHHH!"

 

(If memory serves, the conversation went downhill from there!)

 

By the way, does anyone here read Spider-Girl? I recently started reading it from the beginning and am amazed at how entertaining it is. It feels like a cross between Ultimate Spider-Man and the old Lee-Ditko issues of Spider-Man. Lots of fun and tone to it, the relationship between May and older Peter is a cool dynamic. More interestingly, it picks up a few threads from the clone saga, but executes them in a clean, efficient, and well-written manner (most notably, a storyline involving Kaine, with a real Rumplestiltskon (sp?) vibe to it).

For those of you who liked some parts of the storyline (but hated all the confused and bullshit involved), check out Spider-Girl!

[Sass 0]

Mark Gruenwald would have never let the Clone Saga go as far as it did.

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

Next: Someone needs to do a behindthescenes of the making and developing of the Hobgoblin! Who knew what? How did Stern come up with the idea? Why did they change it?

 

Here you go: http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/SquanderedL...egacyTitle.html

[Sass 0]

I finally managed to read the entire thing.

 

Highly recommended for those who do not know just how badly Marvel was creatively bankrupt back then when the suits in the front office ran the show and pulled everyone's strings.

[starvenger 0]

I think the most telling quote for that was "the marketing people LOVED chromium".

 

Welcome back, Sassquatch.

[Sass 0]

I think the most telling quote for that was "the marketing people LOVED chromium".

 

Welcome back, Sassquatch.

Thanks star.

 

By the way, my hatred for Terry Kavanagh only increased after reading everything.

 

Iron Man fans will know why.

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

By the way, my hatred for Terry Kavanagh only increased after reading everything.

 

Iron Man fans will know why.

 

Was he the one that had Tony Stark be control by Kang and then Tony was replaced by himself as a teen?

[Betty Houle 0]

Next: Someone needs to do a behindthescenes of the making and developing of the Hobgoblin! Who knew what? How did Stern come up with the idea? Why did they change it?

 

Here you go: http://www.spideykicksbutt.com/SquanderedL...egacyTitle.html

Thanks!!!

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

You're Welcome.

[claydude14 0]

Fuck man, I was a fanboy back then and The Clone Saga is what got me into comics as a whole. I was even the Scarlet Spider for Halloween (and was him again this year thanks to some costume re-fitting). When it ended is when I got out of comics. This past weekend I picked up a Wizard for the hell of it, and today found myself at the comic shop. I'm glad they're going back to original numbering on all those books that got re-started. I'm try and start reading Amazing, complete the Gen-X series (why did it die?) and read some other books (randomly picked up The Flash 200-203, like what I've read so far). I'm gonna have to give this Clone Saga article a read...

[Sass 0]

By the way, my hatred for Terry Kavanagh only increased after reading everything.

 

Iron Man fans will know why.

 

Was he the one that had Tony Stark be control by Kang and then Tony was replaced by himself as a teen?

Yes.

[pochorenella 0]

Was he the one that had Tony Stark be control by Kang and then Tony was replaced by himself as a teen?

 

That was one of the most idiotic things ever to happen to my favorite hero, and I believe that to this day it hasn't been addressed what exactly happened so that the original Tony Stark returned after Heroes Reborn and nobody said anything.

[Golgo 13 0]

That stuff on the Hobgoblin and Clone Saga is real interesting. It's almost enough to get me into comics again. Almost.

 

As the writer of the article and some of you said, the Clone Saga is really definitive of how ass backwards Marvel was at the time. I remember thinking how promising the storyline sounded, only for it to descend into something as idiotic as Maximum Clonage.

 

WWF's Invasion storyline, or even WCW's nWo storyline (where it got to the point of sticking around too long and being overexposed) is a perfect comparison. But in retrospect, the writers really did the best they could in covering their collective asses (and making the ideas of Scrier and Traveller more palatable).