Tremendous ROH Rant I found...

[Bix 0]

NO THEY'RE NOT. Lucha is not about spots. WATCH SOME FUCKING TAPES. YOU. FUCK. ASS. El Dandy vs Negro Navarro is one of the best matches I've ever seen, it's lucha, and the biggest highspot is a clothesline.

 

(I'm going to refrain from childish shit.) MULTIPLE MAN Lucha matches. EX: Barely Legal '97 Teioh/Togo/Michinoku vs. Sasuke/Hamada/Yakashiji. I watch plenty of damn tapes. WCW had them all the time. The point I'm gtrying to get across is not that they're great matches. I'm trying to say don't blame ROH for scrambles, because they've been done elsewhere before.

 

MPPro is highspot based puroresu w/ lucha influences. WCW Lucha is not actual lucha, it's luchadores told to go out and do flippy stuff. Check out Dandy's trios matches from 1990, not spot matches at all. Scrambles are meticulously organized to have as many moves and as little selling as possible while Gabe acts as obnoxious as possible on commentary.

 

Well how are you gonna give backround info on Adam Jacobs, Jimmy Rave, Jason Cross, Slim J, and AJ Styles without mentioning where they trained. Gee, I wonder if plugging TNA had to do with getting NWA & X title matches...

 

That's not what I'm talking about. ROH and CZW had a few double headers, Steve Corino put over TNA BEFORE Styles defended the X-Division title. Slim-J? They could hve done the same they did with the rest of Special K. (Brian XL, Izzy and Dixie pick up people they met at raves, and bring them here.) They never mentioned Homicide in JAPW, they put over Xavier's accomplishments without ONCE saying ECWA, etc.

 

I meant those dudes pretty much worked for Wildside exclusively at the time. The others were prominent enough in various indies.

 

Because there's no wrestling in the world other than the nationally aired promotions and your precious ROH, right?

 

I didn't say that. I could have gone on. CZW = Garbage wrestling, XPW = WWE with tits and barbed wire, IWA:MS = Boring brawling (mostly. I enjoy some IWA stuff).

 

IWA is mostly NOT brawling. I'm too tired to have this argument right now.

 

IWA-MS smokes ROH.

 

 

Dear Blog,

 

OMG. ROH is wicked fresh. LOL. Its bitchin an buggin yo.

 

I did watch the shows. Why did it have to be an iron man match, though? Why not a submission match or pinfalls only or no falls in the first X minutes so as to guarantee a feeling out period? And you must provide an answer other than "masturbation fodder for RF, Gabe, and some others."

 

Because their original match was to see who would move on to the 7/27/02 Iron Man match to crown the first champion.

 

That's a reach.

[Guest DonWestMark03]

Eh, to each his own then. I really do wish CZW would put out a comp of their best wrestling matches though, because there are quite a lot of 'em.

[Guest Max Peter David]

MPD wrote:

(I'm going to refrain from childish shit.) MULTIPLE MAN Lucha matches. EX: Barely Legal '97 Teioh/Togo/Michinoku vs. Sasuke/Hamada/Yakashiji. I watch plenty of damn tapes. WCW had them all the time. The point I'm gtrying to get across is not that they're great matches. I'm trying to say don't blame ROH for scrambles, because they've been done elsewhere before.

 

Your examples of what you believe to be "Lucha" proves Bix's point. Your point is valid about ROH not being the first federation to push mindless spots of doom wrestling, but don't point to AAA or EMLL (REAL Lucha Libre). You come off as uninformed, even if you have watched "plenty of damn tapes".

 

-DA

Fair enough, but my point still stands. His post was an anti-ROH post. In it, he said the scramble is killing wrestling. ROH did not invent the scramble match, therefore that argument has no place in an anti-ROH post. (BTW, I've heard several of the announcers in ECW, WCW, ROH say it was a form of Lucha.)

 

MPPro is highspot based puroresu w/ lucha influences. WCW Lucha is not actual lucha, it's luchadores told to go out and do flippy stuff. Check out Dandy's trios matches from 1990, not spot matches at all. Scrambles are meticulously organized to have as many moves and as little selling as possible while Gabe acts as obnoxious as possible on commentary.

 

See above.

 

I meant those dudes pretty much worked for Wildside exclusively at the time. The others were prominent enough in various indies.

 

Regardless, they still plugged the feds. EX: "Esteemed" HWA is what I heard Doug say on the Expect the Unexpected tape. Even if they were telling of Stryker and Collyer's backgrounds they still put over the fed.

 

IWA is mostly NOT brawling. I'm too tired to have this argument right now.

 

I haven't seen a ton of it, so I'm probably not equipped to have this argument either, but from what I've seen, it is.

 

Dear Blog,

 

OMG. ROH is wicked fresh. LOL. Its bitchin an buggin yo.

 

Okay...

 

That's a reach.

 

Oh please, give it up. Their rematch was the same match they were wrestling to get into in the first place. Makes sense to me, and it's definatly not a "reach".

Edited November 3, 2003 by Max Peter David

[Guest Deviant]

It seems that everyone has said their piece and covered my opinion(especially Bob), so I will do something very unlike me and keep it short.

 

ROH simply has the right mix of talent, styles and matches to create my ideal company. I really don't like the ultraviolent wrestling, which turns me away from CZW and IWA-MS, no matter how small of a part of the show it comprises. That's just my opinion.

 

I will definately be taking some of the suggestions in this topic, such as BOTB and Uprising for CZW and the Ted Petty Invitational, and I actually plan to get both. I did try CZW based on what a friend told me was his favourite show, and I personally thought it sucked, so I just didn't watch much more.

 

I am one of the fans that only watch ROH, but not because ROH is so much better than other feds, or other indies suck. I'm open to try anything that gets reccommended. As for puro, I'd love to know where to start, but I don't which makes it hard. The Sledgehammer forums have provided me with a lot of puro downloads I have yet to watch, so that may turn out well.

 

And lastly, what exactly is wrong with a writer booking good wrestler against good wrestler and straight edge vs reformed addict? Simplistic but logical is not a bad thing, it's something that I have really, really missed elsewhere. Doug Williams vs American Dragon was a 30 minute iron man match simply to prove who was the better man. What's wrong with that? From a booking perspective, a 30 min. iron man match has a better chance of providing an answer and conclusion to the feud than anything else. From a non-storyline perspective, Gabe booked according to what ROH fans would love to see. He listened to the fans and wrote accordingly. Again, last time I checked, that was actually a good thing.

 

And dammit, this ended up being pretty lengthy. I just can't write a short opinion.

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

I think thats one of the most sensical things written here. Way to go Deviant

[Guest Rob Naylor]

Ok, I don't post here at all as there is alot of negativiy, but Bix, I have to disagree with you.

I realize you are a big fan of IWA...(I won't call you an IWA fan..because that mentality of lumping fans together is ridiculous as I am not an ROH FAN, but simply someone who is a wrestling fan that greatly enjoys ROH's product).

You calling Gabe an uncreative booker is an opinion I disagree with. I realize you dislike the guy, but I think he is one of the more fan-friendly behind the scenes wrestling guys around.

The storyline of putting their belt over, announcing it...presenting it...waiting to do a tourney...and putting the final match in a setting (Iron Man on the 7/27) that when the bout was over, the belt would mean something after a long struggle and the interview post match was great.

The Prophecy and teasing of who would be in the anti-ROH group from tape to tape on the first 7 shows was strong as on show 4, they had Xavier passing Daniels with a subtle hint that Daniels was interested in recruiting Xavier and by the show in Philly in September, the turn was made. The Prophecy also was used in a storyline to make the handshake mean something and put over the CODE of Honor concept. It worked in Philly, as fans that wanted to cheer Daniels, boo'd him. The entire Prophecy vs. Ki feud was well laid out and ended in a brutal tag match that saw Ki get revenge on Xavier with the post on the gut chair incident. All grudges do not have to end in a blowoff singles bout.

The Carnage Crew, of all people got over with GREAT promos and slow build of destroying underneath teams and working a strong bunkhouse match with Cide and Bugaloo after that feud escalated. Even when Bugaloo bolted, they found a way to finalize the situation in bringing in Abby to finish them off and Homicide then set his sites on Corino..which turned out to produce one hell of a match in August of this year.

Nearly every main event on a ROH show will be composed of two guys that have a history that is often documented before they face. OF COURSE there will be some matches thrown together here and there...What promotion doesn't do that...!

And you asked why the Ironman with Dragon and Williams...If I remember, they did a poll asking what the fans wanted for that match..as it was originally scheduled to be Dragon vs. Spanky...but then since Spanky went to Z1, the promotion asked fans what type of match they wanted to see...that isn't the worst thing a company can do in my book. Was there a reason for the IWA Drunken Death match???

Was there a real legitimate reason for the Jacobs vs. Shelley triple threat of matches...there wasn't some great angle there...And they just went out and produced good matches. No harm there.

How about all of Jimmy Rave's ironman matches..? OH, he is king of the Ironman...good story.

C'mon Bix, I think you definately know what you are talking about and I hate arguing with you, but you DO tend to just look at ROH in a negative light. I HATE that you think all ROH fans are holier than thou...I could certainly typecast the fans of IWA or Wildside as redneck or trashy based on some folks seen on the tapes, But that is certainly not the case...there are all types of fans that go to ANY wrestling show..there will always be smartass fans calling out spots at ANY wrestling show...ROH doesn't hold the market on them. ROH has MORE fans now, so obviously the chances of nitwits increasing go up. WWWF fans in Hamburg PA were nice rural people..but when they hit it big in 85 and moved to more urban places to tape..the fanbase changed. It happens.

One last thing Bix...you hate the scrambles..understood. But Sal and Luke and alot of Wildside guys do the same stuff. Look at the everyone dive off the balcony IWA match at KOTDM...they were no selling extravaganza's to pop the crowd. I happen to enjoy all of that.

The Scrambles are based off the Tijuana opening match Vipers vs. Cadetes stuff. Lots of incredible spots and the crowds love them. They never claimed to be Casas vs. Hijo Del Santo. Gabe dislikes the captains fall and hokey three way pins...well you know what..that is his perogative...I don't like them either, Konnan and many other luchadores dislike them and Meltzer even thinks they are somewhat passe at this point.

ROH often goes out of their way to point out JAPW, USA Pro, Wildside, ICW, CZW and other indies for working with them on their tapes. They don't mention IWA for obvious reasons..but they don;t Knock them either. Gee...I've seen Ian knock ROH and others all over his tapes..but of course, he is a real pro and not ever childish.

Anyway, Bix..let the ROH fans enjoy the product. I know many of the fans that follow it are annoying...hell you might think I am annoying (hope you don't tho!)...but there are always annoying fans all over the place, no matter what group.

I dig all the indies...ROH is my fave. Others may have there own and I won't dispute that.

Thanks for reading.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

I guess I should put my 2 cents in here. Let me stress that by no means am I an ROH fanboy, and I HATE Gabe and Rob. But that doesn't change the fact that I think ROH's in ring product is one of the best if not thee best in North America today. I have seen some CZW and IWA-MS and they weren't too bad. But I would have to say that I wasn't too impressed with the ultraviolent stuff. Not that I hate it or anything, but I very rarely get in the mood to watch that style. Also to respond to the comment that the scrambles are killing the sport. How exactly is it killing the sport? These ARE like many lucha matches out there. Now keep in mind I am not saying ALL lucha matches are like this either. Scrambles are simply matches to pop the crowd and get the juices flowing for the show. I am NOT a huge fan of lucha matches as I find many of them spotty and all over the place. Much like the ultraviolent style matches, I have to be in the mood for these ones as well. But for people to argue what kind of wrestling is better is just.......pointless. Is anyone gonna win the argument anyway?

[Bix 0]

HEY! It's Rob!

 

Ok, I don't post here at all as there is alot of negativiy, but Bix, I have to disagree with you.

I realize you are a big fan of IWA...(I won't call you an IWA fan..because that mentality of lumping fans together is ridiculous as I am not an ROH FAN, but simply someone who is a wrestling fan that greatly enjoys ROH's product).

 

I see the difference as well.

 

You calling Gabe an uncreative booker is an opinion I disagree with. I realize you dislike the guy, but I think he is one of the more fan-friendly behind the scenes wrestling guys around.

The storyline of putting their belt over, announcing it...presenting it...waiting to do a tourney...and putting the final match in a setting (Iron Man on the 7/27) that when the bout was over, the belt would mean something after a long struggle and the interview post match was great.

 

That initial title buildup WAS very well done.

 

The Prophecy and teasing of who would be in the anti-ROH group from tape to tape on the first 7 shows was strong as on show 4, they had Xavier passing Daniels with a subtle hint that Daniels was interested in recruiting Xavier and by the show in Philly in September, the turn was made. The Prophecy also was used in a storyline to make the handshake mean something and put over the CODE of Honor concept. It worked in Philly, as fans that wanted to cheer Daniels, boo'd him. The entire Prophecy vs. Ki feud was well laid out and ended in a brutal tag match that saw Ki get revenge on Xavier with the post on the gut chair incident. All grudges do not have to end in a blowoff singles bout.

 

The CODE OF HONOR~! is still ridiculously stupid. It's not like there's any punishment for breaking it (other than having to hear Gabe and Doug yell the phrase "Boys in the back" a lot") and it's stigmatized handshakes outside of ROH as stupid.

 

Nearly every main event on a ROH show will be composed of two guys that have a history that is often documented before they face. OF COURSE there will be some matches thrown together here and there...What promotion doesn't do that...!

 

Thrown together (semi-)main event, though?

 

And you asked why the Ironman with Dragon and Williams...If I remember, they did a poll asking what the fans wanted for that match..as it was originally scheduled to be Dragon vs. Spanky...but then since Spanky went to Z1, the promotion asked fans what type of match they wanted to see...that isn't the worst thing a company can do in my book. Was there a reason for the IWA Drunken Death match???

 

IIRC: There was a poll asking what stips fans wanted for AD-Spanky. 2/3 falls won and the match was made. Spanky had to work a Z1 tour, and AD-Doug Ironman was thrown on the card.

 

For the record, I HATE the IWA once per card no buildup deathmatch stuff. At least CZW mostly builds feuds around them.

 

Was there a real legitimate reason for the Jacobs vs. Shelley triple threat of matches...there wasn't some great angle there...And they just went out and produced good matches. No harm there.

 

They had 2 undercard matches which they split evenly, with Jacobs being an annoying whiny bitch throughout. Then they had a 2/3 falls match, which IIRC Shelley won, leading to Jacobs to issue the challenge for hair vs boot hair a month later, which he won, afterwhich he intentionally gave Shelley a bad haircut. The next month they had an Ironman match, won by Shelley, who offered a handshake to Jacobs, who spit at him and refused. A week later they had a respect match, won by Jacobs. Shelley proclaimed his respect for Jacobs, who was still being a prick about it all. They had the tag at We Are Family (w/ Hero and Daniels as partners), which Hero/Shelley won. The next week they were in a three-way with JC Bailey for the LHW title, which bailey won. And finally, a week later, at Marble Madness, they had the 2/3 match series (pinfalls only, submissions only, texas death) won by Shelley. At KOTDM, Jacobs saved Shelley from a CZW beatdown because only HE gets to beat up Alex Shelley, and they finally started teaming out of mutual respect. It was built for like 5 months

 

How about all of Jimmy Rave's ironman matches..? OH, he is king of the Ironman...good story.

 

Rave is Pat and Tom's boyfriend, not mine

 

C'mon Bix, I think you definately know what you are talking about and I hate arguing with you, but you DO tend to just look at ROH in a negative light. I HATE that you think all ROH fans are holier than thou...I could certainly typecast the fans of IWA or Wildside as redneck or trashy based on some folks seen on the tapes, But that is certainly not the case...there are all types of fans that go to ANY wrestling show..there will always be smartass fans calling out spots at ANY wrestling show...ROH doesn't hold the market on them. ROH has MORE fans now, so obviously the chances of nitwits increasing go up. WWWF fans in Hamburg PA were nice rural people..but when they hit it big in 85 and moved to more urban places to tape..the fanbase changed. It happens.

 

But if you watch the tapes, AND read the ROH MB, and see posts by ROH loyals on other MBs, it really rings true.

 

Seriously, there's you...and Wes....and...Phil & Tom and...uh...that's about it for exceptions.

 

One last thing Bix...you hate the scrambles..understood. But Sal and Luke and alot of Wildside guys do the same stuff.

 

I don't watch Wildside...

 

Look at the everyone dive off the balcony IWA match at KOTDM...they were no selling extravaganza's to pop the crowd. I happen to enjoy all of that.

 

I don't recall much no-selling...then again I don't expect a dive caught by several people to be sold to death.

 

The Scrambles are based off the Tijuana opening match Vipers vs. Cadetes stuff. Lots of incredible spots and the crowds love them. They never claimed to be Casas vs. Hijo Del Santo. Gabe dislikes the captains fall and hokey three way pins...well you know what..that is his perogative...I don't like them either, Konnan and many other luchadores dislike them and Meltzer even thinks they are somewhat passe at this point.

 

The Vipers-Cadetes stuff didn't have rolling piledrivers into ganso bombs being kicked out of. When the scrambles started adding in all of those ridiculous head drops as opposed to just cool flying all while Gabe yells about "HAHA LUCHA WITHOUT THE BS AND NO PSYCHOLOGY AND I THINK SPECIAL K IS ON SOMETHING Y'KNOW THEY'RE RICH KIDS FROM THE SUBURBS WHO SPEND THEIR PARENTS' MONEY ON PARTYING AND GETTING HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

ROH often goes out of their way to point out JAPW, USA Pro, Wildside, ICW, CZW and other indies for working with them on their tapes. They don't mention IWA for obvious reasons..but they don;t Knock them either. Gee...I've seen Ian knock ROH and others all over his tapes..but of course, he is a real pro and not ever childish.

 

Who said Ian's never immature? And how would you feel if RF burned you on a tape distribution deal?

 

Anyway, Bix..let the ROH fans enjoy the product. I know many of the fans that follow it are annoying...hell you might think I am annoying (hope you don't tho!)...but there are always annoying fans all over the place, no matter what group.

I dig all the indies...ROH is my fave. Others may have there own and I won't dispute that.

Thanks for reading.

 

ROH happens to have a high concentration of annoying fans. And you're not TOO annoying

 

Now pwease trade me that Florida audio, if you weel...

[Phoenix Fury Legdrop 0]

I knew I said I wasn't coming back, but I've got to defend Sal here. Naylor, Sal may do a headdrop with the PFL and the Whattamanuever every once in a while, but he sure as hell isn't one of those scrambled eggs that bounce off the walls at each ROH show. I'll give you Luke, since, last I saw him, the feud with Sal where he worked slower, much better-paced matches than his usual speed, didn't seem to help his spotmonkey nature at all. But Sal is in no way, shape, or form a spot boy. Outside of the ladder match at Freedom Fight 2003, I haven't seen him do a match with too much of that crazy, contrived spot wackiness in a long time. Heck, I remember at least one Wildside episode where he was doing guest commentary, and made a few really funny jokes mocking that style (something along the lines of "Kool and Slim J aren't dropping each other on their heads....just give them a few minutes; THEN they'll be breaking each other's necks!"). Just thought I'd leave with that instead of my admitted tantrum-like, frustrated rant.

[Guest Rob Naylor]

Bix said: Rave is Pat and Tom's boyfriend, not mine

 

***Oh sorry. My bad.

 

Bix said: But if you watch the tapes, AND read the ROH MB, and see posts by ROH loyals on other MBs, it really rings true.

 

**Yeah, but if your gonna judge a promotion by its MB's than IWA is in some trouble too!!!Message Boards are filled with youngsters...can't really fault misinformed youth, can you!

 

Bix said: Seriously, there's you...and Wes....and...Phil & Tom and...uh...that's about it for exceptions.

 

***Thanks Bix...nice to be included in the non-idiot clique!!!

 

Look at the everyone dive off the balcony IWA match at KOTDM...they were no selling extravaganza's to pop the crowd. I happen to enjoy all of that.

 

Bix said: I don't recall much no-selling...then again I don't expect a dive caught by several people to be sold to death.

 

***True, but you'll find just as much wacky no selling all over any IWA show in the DM's. I will give you this one though. Good point.

 

Bix said: The Vipers-Cadetes stuff didn't have rolling piledrivers into ganso bombs being kicked out of. When the scrambles started adding in all of those ridiculous head drops as opposed to just cool flying all while Gabe yells about "HAHA LUCHA WITHOUT THE BS AND NO PSYCHOLOGY AND I THINK SPECIAL K IS ON SOMETHING Y'KNOW THEY'RE RICH KIDS FROM THE SUBURBS WHO SPEND THEIR PARENTS' MONEY ON PARTYING AND GETTING HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

***True, I realize that Gabe's commentary does to you what Ian and Prazak's does to me....so advantage: Push. Oh and I see all kinds of no-selling of smaller moves in lucha, I've watched it since 1992 and I'm STILL not conditioned to it. Maybe by 2012 you'll enjoy scrambles.

 

 

Bix said: Who said Ian's never immature? And how would you feel if RF burned you on a tape distribution deal?

 

***I'd be pissed, but for as often as Rob gets hit for being unprofessional, he seriously doesn't do it anywhere near as outwardly as Ian often does. The guy prank called Kimala for Christsake and used the N word!!!

 

Bix said: ROH happens to have a high concentration of annoying fans. And you're not TOO annoying

 

***Uh oh, I'm on thin ice!!!

 

Bix said: Now pwease trade me that Florida audio, if you weel...

 

***I'm seriously working on it, buddy. My source with the audio tape will likely hook me up by X-mas...when it is in my grasp I'll get to work and send it to you STAT.

 

***Thanks for arguing, we can continue to pray at our respective different wrestling altars now!

[Guest Rob Naylor]

I knew I said I wasn't coming back, but I've got to defend Sal here. Naylor, Sal may do a headdrop with the PFL and the Whattamanuever every once in a while, but he sure as hell isn't one of those scrambled eggs that bounce off the walls at each ROH show. I'll give you Luke, since, last I saw him, the feud with Sal where he worked slower, much better-paced matches than his usual speed, didn't seem to help his spotmonkey nature at all. But Sal is in no way, shape, or form a spot boy. Outside of the ladder match at Freedom Fight 2003, I haven't seen him do a match with too much of that crazy, contrived spot wackiness in a long time. Heck, I remember at least one Wildside episode where he was doing guest commentary, and made a few really funny jokes mocking that style (something along the lines of "Kool and Slim J aren't dropping each other on their heads....just give them a few minutes; THEN they'll be breaking each other's necks!"). Just thought I'd leave with that instead of my admitted tantrum-like, frustrated rant.

 

 

I didn't say I didn't like Sal...I enjoy his work...but I've seen him in the same type of matches. ALOT of 2002 and a pretty fair amount of 2003 Wildside is just as spotty as half of the Scrambles. People kick out of lots of stuff in Wildside. I know it is easy to take one scramble and IDIOT Maximo rolling piledriver/Brainbuster/Powerbomb spot and pick on it...but I'd say at least half of the Scrambles (especially with Special K) usually are constructed quite well...with crazy moves DONE but protected as well either with the member of Special K that takes the move rolling outside or getting a foot on a rope or having other members break up the pin. And when the Carnage Crew are in charge of putting them together, they are always very smartly done...as Devito is underrated at putting together decent matches.

“Kool” Seth DeLay, Altar Boy Luke, Gabriel, Sal and Slim J others have all done several matches that were move crazy....I'm not saying they can't work, I'm saying they use a similar style that I think much of Special K gets unfairly lambasted for.

Dixie, Izzy, Lethal and Angel Dust have all really improved and there time around Jim Cornette as he tours the ROH shows and critiques the hell out of them will only make them better.

Remember, I'm not knocking some of the high impact dazzling stuff these guys do...I'm just saying that it isn't that different from the high end Scramble matches. I don't think the term Scramble Match is a bad word...just one match on a ROH show that deviates in style from the rest of the product....which I think is refreshing. Not trying to ARGUE ROH dominance or anything!!!Just my opinion after watching a bunch of recent indy work.

[Guest Jay Z. Hollywood]

I realized my earlier statement was pretty hasty, but hey, hasty's my middle name. I'm glad Rob finally decided to post here, we may disagree on a lot, occassionally angrily, but he's a guy I've always respected for presenting his opinion in a well thought-out, calm and openminded manner, hope he sticks around. We need more people like that in this folder.

[Bix 0]

Bix said: But if you watch the tapes, AND read the ROH MB, and see posts by ROH loyals on other MBs, it really rings true.

 

**Yeah, but if your gonna judge a promotion by its MB's than IWA is in some trouble too!!!Message Boards are filled with youngsters...can't really fault misinformed youth, can you!

 

IWA's MB is more general internet idiocy types. ROH's MB...is full of fuckasses.

 

Bix said:  I don't recall much no-selling...then again I don't expect a dive caught by several people to be sold to death.

 

***True, but you'll find just as much wacky no selling all over any IWA show in the DM's. I will give you this one though. Good point.

 

Depends on the DM...Rollin, Pondo, and Axl suck. Corporal, Necro, Ian, Page, Pain, and Bailey can have solid DMs, along with solid straight wrestling matches and good old school brawls.

 

Bix said: The Vipers-Cadetes stuff didn't have rolling piledrivers into ganso bombs being kicked out of.  When the scrambles started adding in all of those ridiculous head drops as opposed to just cool flying all while Gabe yells about "HAHA LUCHA WITHOUT THE BS AND  NO PSYCHOLOGY AND I THINK SPECIAL K IS ON SOMETHING Y'KNOW THEY'RE RICH KIDS FROM THE SUBURBS WHO SPEND THEIR PARENTS' MONEY ON PARTYING AND GETTING HIGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

 

***True, I realize that Gabe's commentary does to you what Ian and Prazak's does to me....so advantage: Push. Oh and I see all kinds of no-selling of smaller moves in lucha, I've watched it since 1992 and I'm STILL not conditioned to it. Maybe by 2012 you'll enjoy scrambles.

 

But in Lucha...they SELL the big stuff. The rolling piledrivers would get the Maximos and Special K stabbed.

 

Bix said: Who said Ian's never immature?  And how would you feel if RF burned you on a tape distribution deal? 

 

***I'd be pissed, but for as often as Rob gets hit for being unprofessional, he seriously doesn't do it anywhere near as outwardly as Ian often does. The guy prank called Kimala for Christsake and used the N word!!!

 

Not saying that was acceptable, but in context it's not as bad as you made it out to be. Like many others in the business, Ian was somehow burned by Bob Starr. To get revenge, Ian called Kamala pretending to be Bob Starr.

 

Bix said:  Now pwease trade me that Florida audio, if you weel...

 

***I'm seriously working on it, buddy. My source with the audio tape will likely hook me up by X-mas...when it is in my grasp I'll get to work and send it to you STAT.

 

WHOO PAK SONG AND DUSTY! Thanks.

 

***Thanks for arguing, we can continue to pray at our respective different wrestling altars now!

 

I think Punk's beating of the fan Saturday was a sign in my favor.

[Guest Rob Naylor]

 

 

Bix said: IWA's MB is more general internet idiocy types. ROH's MB...is full of fuckasses.

 

***Yeah, but I just get a headache from some of the ROH message board nonsense...I critiqued an IWA show once and got an email from some kid on the IWA board saying if he met me he'd hurt me....That is truly a fuckass, IMO.

Like Robert Fuller used to talk about in interviews, "When a man lifts his fists in anger in an argument...He has clearly run out o' ideas!!!!"

Seems like alot of the real hardcore IWA fanbase (and I'm obviously not talking about those that enjoy Hero busting out crazy matwork) that Ian has bred with his.."Oh yeah..well if you ain't hardcore you ain't shit" and the ever popular..."Oh yeah, so ROH had a London vs. Dragon match...well...Fuck that...Corp almost DIED for this business"

Those people as Corny has said, need a serious headcheck.

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

I knew I said I wasn't coming back, but I've got to defend Sal here. Naylor, Sal may do a headdrop with the PFL and the Whattamanuever every once in a while, but he sure as hell isn't one of those scrambled eggs that bounce off the walls at each ROH show.

You see, thats where i stopped paying attention

 

I bet it kills you that Azreal is one of the Special K "spot-monkeys" (are he and Angel-Dust the same person?????)

 

For the record I think Scramble matches are an absolute blast. I too used to diss lucha as all spots and nothing else, until i , you know, WATCHED IT.

 

I still won't watch Wildside though

 

Furthermore, I bets it kills you that in TNA, AB Luke gets to stand at ringside (which, judging by XPW stuff that i saw, is all he's good at)

 

Furthermore, to ANY Wildside fan, how should Iceberg have been booked in ROH/TNA

 

I'm betting dollars to donuts someone (PFL, most likely) says he should be ROH Champion and/or TNA Champion

[Guest Rob Naylor]

I knew I said I wasn't coming back, but I've got to defend Sal here. Naylor, Sal may do a headdrop with the PFL and the Whattamanuever every once in a while, but he sure as hell isn't one of those scrambled eggs that bounce off the walls at each ROH show.

You see, thats where i stopped paying attention

 

I bet it kills you that Azreal is one of the Special K "spot-monkeys" (are he and Angel-Dust the same person?????)

 

For the record I think Scramble matches are an absolute blast. I too used to diss lucha as all spots and nothing else, until i , you know, WATCHED IT.

 

I still won't watch Wildside though

 

Furthermore, I bets it kills you that in TNA, AB Luke gets to stand at ringside (which, judging by XPW stuff that i saw, is all he's good at)

 

Furthermore, to ANY Wildside fan, how should Iceberg have been booked in ROH/TNA

 

I'm betting dollars to donuts someone (PFL, most likely) says he should be ROH Champion and/or TNA Champion

Azael and Azriel are two separate guys. One is Dust and the JAPW trainee and the other is the Lost Boy.

Both are very good, but I always thought that the lost boys get a little TOO creative in some of their spots. Otherwise they were a great team....Don't expect to ever see them again though after...well...just don't expect to see them as a team anymore. They were like a Modern Day "Blackhearts" team though (get tapes of them btw).

JAPW Azreal is quite good, bumps like a madman and is young and learning, but will be good as he really is underrated and hasn't been put in a spot to really showcase his underrated matwork yet.

[Guest Rob Naylor]

Sorry I doubleposted....but it gives me a chance to say the Berg got over HUGE on 4/12 with ROH and the fans. His work with David Young was great and highimpact like a Jerry Blackwell/Hansen really physical style.

It wasn't the Berg or Oman sucked on 5/31..it was just they blew one spot and some of the fans....(not all as everyone says) started on them. It was not like a big mass mutiny by any means...people usually take this subject and run with it as a reason to "HATE" ROH fans..but it is really like an urban legend....I heard a boring chant from a fan during the IWA Hero-Punk match...but he shut up. Law of averages says that there will always be fans that are there to get themselves over not the show. But being that I've attended many ROH shows...I just see it as a way to have a good time with my wrestling watching friends from the early 90's.

Edited November 4, 2003 by Rob Naylor

[Guest Gene_Madrid]

You see, thats where i stopped paying attention

 

I bet it kills you that Azreal is one of the Special K "spot-monkeys" (are he and Angel-Dust the same person?????)

 

For the record I think Scramble matches are an absolute blast. I too used to diss lucha as all spots and nothing else, until i , you know, WATCHED IT.

 

I still won't watch Wildside though

 

Furthermore, I bets it kills you that in TNA, AB Luke gets to stand at ringside (which, judging by XPW stuff that i saw, is all he's good at)

 

Furthermore, to  ANY Wildside fan, how should Iceberg have been booked in ROH/TNA

 

I'm betting dollars to donuts someone (PFL, most likely) says he should be ROH Champion and/or TNA Champion

To have an argument this heated over something that is complete opinion is counter productive to say the least. Opinion is opinion for a reason. If you enjoy Low-Ki matches or TL Hopper matches, then it is your right as a human being to enjoy either.

 

Not one party in this argument is right or wrong, but the ones who are attacking other posters are simply indulging in a childish pissing contest.

 

I AM a Wildside fan, and I'm also a big ROH fan and I'll be glad to tell you how I thought Iceberg could've been booked to get over.

 

First and foremost his gimmick is that of a monster and a killer. In Wildside it got over very well....why?

 

Well he wasn't presented as just "some other guy" for one.

A guy like that has to be presented as something different, something special. In TNA and ROH, he was just another guy and with today's wrestling audience.....just another fat guy is doomed to get heckled and booed out of the building because today's fans just do not like wrestlers that big. If that was their intent in using him, then it worked like a charm.

 

Wilson's argument is very valid because one would assume that if a promotion is booking someone that is an anomalie like that, they'd plan on him hopefully getting over and being used further in an attempt to create a fresh and marketable character for the promotion to use.

 

(Also I re-read Wilson's interview and he didn't ignore the good points of TNA, he actually went on a rant about how he wants them to succeed for the good of the industry, but hates the obviously stupid things they do because it's killing their chances of being a legit #2.)

 

So if they (TNA/ROH)wanted him to get over, they should've booked him in a position to do so and they didn't.

 

In Wildside he rarely even wrestled a match, especially during his early run......he just served as Bailey's destruction mechanism. They would hold exhibition segments just designed to get him over ($500 bodyslam challenge, which arguably boosted Caprice Coleman into a main event spot, Thumbtacks in the head promos, Cutting his head open on purpose promos, attacking Goth and splashing him when they carried him out on a stretcher over and over and over again) much like they did with Abdullah back in the day when he would come into a territory (eating raw meat, carving up jobbers...etc) or The Shiek ( handling snakes, throwing fire, speaking in tounges).

Iceberg was very effective in those roles, and he then he evolved from that in Wildside and did begin wrestling matches and eventually was over to the point that the heavyweight championship was put on him. But he had to have that initial build up.......something that was purposely designed to get him over and succeeded. If you don't book someone to get over they're chances of doing so aren't very good but sometimes it does happen.

 

So if TNA and ROH HAD presented him as something special and given him a vehicle to get himself over, it would've then been up to Iceberg to carry the ball.....but they didn't even do that.

 

As a fan of TNA and ROH and all indy promotions I think it's sad that they didn't use a talent that I like quite a bit in Iceberg as well as he could've been......but in the same respect , IMO these indies need their own identities so maybe it was a blessing in disguise.

 

I'm all for the guys getting other work but there is a part of me as a fan that wants to see CZW guys, be CZW guys, ROH guys be ROH guys, and so forth.

 

Anyway those are my opinions, I'm not right or wrong and neither is anyone who is arguing against me. It's simply a matter of taste.

 

And as Rob Naylor and several others here have proven, it isn't to difficult to have an intelligent debate without it turning into a "my dad can beat up your dad" contest.

 

It's nice to see posts where guys can state what they like and why they like it, and what they don't prefer and why they don't care for it.

 

Layta,

Gene

[Jack_Bauer 0]

The thing I don't get was this whole thing was started by someone flying off the handle just because someone has an opinion.

 

At least you have defended Wildside in a 'constructive' way. I havent seen any Wildside, but I HAVE seen The Lost Boys, Adam Jacobs, Jimmy Rave and people that have been in ROH and I have enjoyed watching them and on THAT basis, I don't think Wildside would be that bad.

 

Then again, I haven't actually SEEN a show.

[Guest Gene_Madrid]

Yeah, the whole rant by Jason Martin, IMO was a little uncalled for.

 

Wildside has a working relationship with ROH, CZW and several other indies for talent exchange. To have the backup ring announcer who doesn't even get on TV just try and put himself over like that really DOES reflect badly on Wildside and you'd think that would even serve to jeoprodize that working relationship. He could've propsed why he didn't like the stuff without just insulting it. Not to mention what he said has all been stated before, and much more diplomatically.

[Guest Rob Naylor]

Furthermore, to  ANY Wildside fan, how should Iceberg have been booked in ROH/TNA

I AM a Wildside fan, and I'm also a big ROH fan and I'll be glad to tell you how I thought Iceberg could've been booked to get over.

 

First and foremost his gimmick is that of a monster and a killer. In Wildside it got over very well....why?

 

Well he wasn't presented as just "some other guy" for one.

A guy like that has to be presented as something different, something special. In TNA and ROH, he was just another guy and with today's wrestling audience.....just another fat guy is doomed to get heckled and booed out of the building because today's fans just do not like wrestlers that big. If that was their intent in using him, then it worked like a charm.

 

Wilson's argument is very valid because one would assume that if a promotion is booking someone that is an anomalie like that, they'd plan on him hopefully getting over and being used further in an attempt to create a fresh and marketable character for the promotion to use.

 

(Also I re-read Wilson's interview and he didn't ignore the good points of TNA, he actually went on a rant about how he wants them to succeed for the good of the industry, but hates the obviously stupid things they do because it's killing their chances of being a legit #2.)

 

So if they (TNA/ROH)wanted him to get over, they should've booked him in a position to do so and they didn't.

 

In Wildside he rarely even wrestled a match, especially during his early run......he just served as Bailey's destruction mechanism. They would hold exhibition segments just designed to get him over ($500 bodyslam challenge, which arguably boosted Caprice Coleman into a main event spot, Thumbtacks in the head promos, Cutting his head open on purpose promos, attacking Goth and splashing him when they carried him out on a stretcher over and over and over again) much like they did with Abdullah back in the day when he would come into a territory (eating raw meat, carving up jobbers...etc) or The Shiek ( handling snakes, throwing fire, speaking in tounges).

Iceberg was very effective in those roles, and he then he evolved from that in Wildside and did begin wrestling matches and eventually was over to the point that the heavyweight championship was put on him. But he had to have that initial build up.......something that was purposely designed to get him over and succeeded. If you don't book someone to get over they're chances of doing so aren't very good but sometimes it does happen.

 

So if TNA and ROH HAD presented him as something special and given him a vehicle to get himself over, it would've then been up to Iceberg to carry the ball.....but they didn't even do that.

Layta,

Gene

 

 

.

***Good points Gene...but I again, slightly disagree.

Most of the fans that come out to at least the Philly shows knew of BERG, due to watching him on WGTW Channel 48. I think that the ones that booed him on 5/31 may have been some folks on the NYC bus who at the USA Pro shows often are relentless with chants for missed spots.

As for ROH not TRYING to get Berg over, nothing could be further from the truth. Before he showed up at the 4/12 show, they hyped him as Dusty and Homicide's enforcer coming in to take out David Young (his best opponent IMO). He was over on 4/12 for his talent alone at least.

When he came back and was fed Ortuga, who along with Dunn AND Marcos usually do a great job of getting new talent over in squashes, the MONSTER was getting a push. He his his sick senton, an air-raid crash that Ortuga took great and aside from one bad spot and miscommunication on BOTHS part..it was a fine squash.

Hell, Berg AMONG tons of ROH talent on the show, even got a vignette on the video tape, so it wasn't like they weren't high on him and afterward the promotion didn't bury him at all. He hasn't been brought back yet, but I'm sure down the road he'd be welcomed. There are only soooo many spots.

Personally, I wish Young was available for the 5/31 show as he and Berg could have had a singles match and torn the house down. I agree that perhaps Bailey should have been brought in as a mouthpiece, because that guy is TREMENDOUS.

I respect Wilson and think he is one of the best commentators out there, but his rants are very childish at times. I'm sure he is angry because Wildside doesn;t get the hype they deserve, I agree with him. But shooting arrows at ROH when the two products are quite similar in many ways is the wrong way to go about it.

Again, just my opinion on this fellas

[Guest Gene_Madrid]

Hey Rob

I just watched the brawl from ROH with Young, Homicide, Victory, Dusty, etc....and they were behind him.

 

So I do respect your opinion on the matter, I personally think they could've done a bit more but we'll leave it at that.

 

I think Wilson's biggest problem in the respect you mentioned is that he is a hothead. He's very passionate about wrestling, almost to his own detriment, but his rants have matured quite a bit from a couple of years ago. In his SM interview I liked his explanation about why he didn't like some of the headdropping stuff in ROH, as well as some of the garbage stuff in CZW and I can see his points.....it did come across as if he was making a generalization of both products, but through his explanation I don't think that was his intent.... even though it sounded like he was just slamming them.

 

I'm way open to all styles of wrestling, and try not to pigeonhole myself into liking just one kind.

 

Are there things that annoy me about Wildside?

yeah,

 

Are there things that I don't like about ROH?

most definately

 

But as a true wrestling fan I think I'd be cheating myself if I didn't see that the negatives of most all the "big indies" are far outweighed by their positives and that it's better to try and enjoy the things you love about their products and try to look past the negative aspects and hope they imporve.

[Zack Malibu 0]

I still won't watch Wildside though

 

Furthermore, I bets it kills you that in TNA, AB Luke gets to stand at ringside (which, judging by XPW stuff that i saw, is all he's good at)

There's the problem right there, Dave.

 

If you watched Wilside, you'd see for yourself what people (including those who loathe XPW like Sandman, etc.) say these days...that Luke has improved a great deal, and shot up to a top face slot in only a handful of matches. The XPW Altar Boy stuff (including the debut tag match available on one of the DVD's) either sucked hard (like that tag match) or was a Deathmatch, something Luke strays from these days.

 

If you don't watch it, you wouldn't know this. If you refused to watch WWE, would you be basing Kurt Angle on his Memphis Power Pro work and giving that a reason not to watch the WWE? It's the same thing.

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

If you watched Wilside,

Why should I invest my time and attention in a promotion that sees fit to spend all its time slagging other groups off.

 

Furthermore on Iceberg - the thing about TNA is that because people have to constantly pay to see each show, fans demand instant pay-off.

 

Case In Point - the backlash against Michael Shane

 

If Iceberg was to come out and do his little freakshow act, as Gene Madrid suggested, then he's get staler even quicker, because people would realise they they were being forced to pay to see a fat hack do stupid shit, and not, you know, wrestle.

 

Of course, Dan Wilson hates TNA aswell

 

Also I re-read Wilson's interview and he didn't ignore the good points of TNA, he actually went on a rant about how he wants them to succeed for the good of the industry, but hates the obviously stupid things they do because it's killing their chances of being a legit #2.)

 

Since I can't actually find said interview, I'm gonna assume he'e talking about Russo booking, which is, again, where i switch off, because he's just ignorant

[Zack Malibu 0]

If you watched Wilside,

Why should I invest my time and attention in a promotion that sees fit to spend all its time slagging other groups off.

 

Furthermore on Iceberg - the thing about TNA is that because people have to constantly pay to see each show, fans demand instant pay-off.

 

Case In Point - the backlash against Michael Shane

 

If Iceberg was to come out and do his little freakshow act, as Gene Madrid suggested, then he's get staler even quicker, because people would realise they they were being forced to pay to see a fat hack do stupid shit, and not, you know, wrestle.

 

Of course, Dan Wilson hates TNA aswell

 

Also I re-read Wilson's interview and he didn't ignore the good points of TNA, he actually went on a rant about how he wants them to succeed for the good of the industry, but hates the obviously stupid things they do because it's killing their chances of being a legit #2.)

 

Since I can't actually find said interview, I'm gonna assume he'e talking about Russo booking, which is, again, where i switch off, because he's just ignorant

My post wasn't about the Iceberg/ROH deal. My post had to do with Altar Boy Luke.

 

The argument about you not wanting to watch a promotion that "slags" others isn't valid, since you admitted you weren't going to give Wildside a chance long before this topic popped up.

[Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist]

Yeah, I know, but I was thinking about Iceberg and wanted to get my thoughts off my chest

 

And hey, I'd give Wildside a chance if they stopped being so petty about other promotions that are better than they are and dropped the announce team. I read the TV Reports all the time, and to open the show Wilson always comes out with some smart-ass remark about the WWE that just pisses me off

[Guest DonWestMark03]

And hey, I'd give Wildside a chance if they stopped being so petty about other promotions that are better than they are and dropped the announce team. I read the TV Reports all the time, and to open the show Wilson always comes out with some smart-ass remark about the WWE that just pisses me off

Um, not sure if you know this- but EVERYBODY in indy wrestling is petty and slams other promotions- IWA does it, ROH does it, CZW does it more than anybody.

 

Since I can't actually find said interview, I'm gonna assume he'e talking about Russo booking, which is, again, where i switch off, because he's just ignorant.

 

It's not exactly rocket science to find this interview- it's on TSM's main site. All you'd have to do is type it in to the search engine. Heck, here's the link.

 

http://thesmartmarks.com/artman/publish/ar...icle_1181.shtml

 

And journalists generally don't "assume" or "switch off" stuff they don't like. And I find it hard to believe that a guy who grew up around professional wrestling and has worked in it for the past 5+ years is more "ignorant" than some random net fan.

Edited November 5, 2003 by DonWestMark03

[Mecha Mummy 0]

TNA also takes constant shots at WWE, even when some of them don't make any sense.

[King Cucaracha 0]

And hey, I'd give Wildside a chance if they stopped being so petty about other promotions that are better than they are and dropped the announce team. I read the TV Reports all the time, and to open the show Wilson always comes out with some smart-ass remark about the WWE that just pisses me off

Um, not sure if you know this- but EVERYBODY in indy wrestling is petty and slams other promotions- IWA does it, ROH does it, CZW does it more than anybody.

It's the way to get noticed in the indies now. With so many guys working in numerous promotions, ROH can't really claim fame by having Daniels on the roster, when he works over promotions. As there's so many wrestlers in numerous promotions, the wrestling styles are relatively similar. And some feds run in the same area as others.

 

So taking pot-shots to get publicity is a way of getting noticed. As much as I tire of Wildside and it's employees taking shots like this article at ROH, and even the one at Jeff Jarrett(which was understandable, but at the same time petty and made Wildside look majorly bush league...it's a way to stand out.

[bob_barron 0]

And hey, I'd give Wildside a chance if they stopped being so petty about other promotions that are better than they are and dropped the announce team. I read the TV Reports all the time, and to open the show Wilson always comes out with some smart-ass remark about the WWE that just pisses me off

Um, not sure if you know this- but EVERYBODY in indy wrestling is petty and slams other promotions- IWA does it, ROH does it, CZW does it more than anybody.

 

Since I can't actually find said interview, I'm gonna assume he'e talking about Russo booking, which is, again, where i switch off, because he's just ignorant.

 

It's not exactly rocket science to find this interview- it's on TSM's main site. All you'd have to do is type it in to the search engine. Heck, here's the link.

 

http://thesmartmarks.com/artman/publish/ar...icle_1181.shtml

 

And journalists generally don't "assume" or "switch off" stuff they don't like. And I find it hard to believe that a guy who grew up around professional wrestling and has worked in it for the past 5+ years is more "ignorant" than some random net fan.

When has ROH taken a shot at any other promotion besides WWE?

 

And slamming promotions makes you bush league.

 

 

Has Wildside ever drawn a show like ROH has? No- so they should shut the fuck up.

Same with ROH taking shots at WWE for the Lance Storm angle