Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 This is a topic that I started over at the WC message board almost a year ago, and it ended up being a huge discussion, and a very long topic. I found it very interesting what everyone had to say on everything that was talked about in the thread, and so I thought I'd post it here also to see what you guys have to say about it. Consider this just a starting point, not all of my thoughts on this, as it obviously isn't. The following is simply meant to begin the dicussion, and we'll all go from there. So here we go, the following is my original (albeit short) topic. I recently entered a discussion with someone, and it began with a Hulk Hogan quote. He said that Flair was one of the greatest WORKERS of all time, but not wrestlers. I said I agree with Hogan, and the comments began. Here is my thinking... ...Ric Flair is simply great, in every way in my eyes. In my view, he is the greatest all around worker in the history of Pro. Wrestling. From character, to in ring work, to charisma, mic work, and everything else. I do NOT however see him as the greatest WRESTLER. WORKER yes, but not wrestler. So, in your view, is Flair the greatest worker, wrestler, or neither, of all time? Sincerely, ...Downhome... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Flair is a good wrestler but that's not what makes him one of the greats. What made Flair great was you could have him feud with the most boring sack of crap and he could make it interesting. Flair is the only guy that ever made Ronnie Garvin and Lex Luger interesting. You could give him the worst material and he could somehow make it work. Even today he still manages to work magic on occasion. He's the only non-Kliq member to get a watchable match out of post-quad Triple H. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Flair is quite obviously not the best wrestler in history as Hogan defined it in that interview. There, Hulk was talking more about actual wrestling as a competition which would obviously not be up Flair's alley especially with Olympic and national amateur wrestlers on the roster. As far as the complete package that goes into a worker as far as charisma coupled with the in ring action, I would have to place Flair extremely high although probably not at the top. Being more charismatic than the Harts or Steamboat and a better worker than the Hogans and Rocks of the world... I might but Flair in the top two behind Austin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I would disagree with Austin b/c he never really had to carry the sorry loads like Flair did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I've seen better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haVoc 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Very few guys and matches (for me anyway) have this thing which stands out from the rest. Emotion. Ric Flair, Bret Hart and Chris Benoit today are the only guys who's emotions in the ring came out through their work for me. They made me care. Sometimes you have to stop thinking about what makes a good match. Stop trying to come up with points and stars and run off the emotion of the match. Matches that have pulled me into the match and forget everything else. Flair Vs Steamboat Clash 6 Bret Vs Perfect Summerslam 91 Bret Vs Austin Survivor Series 96 Benoit Vs Angle RR03 Just to name a few. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JHawk 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 It's hard to make this determination for the simple fact that none of us has ever seem every wrestler/worker to ever set foot in the ring. But considering all the people that Ric Flair made look credible over his career, he's certainly one of the best workers I ever saw. Hell, he took on George South on WTBS in 1988 and had the crowd buying that South might pull off the upset, and South never won a match outside of the PWF in the Carolinas that I ever saw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I've seen better. Before I head out for the rest of the day, I'm currious as to who you would name as both "Best Overall Worker" and "Best Wrestler", both of all time. I know you dislike Flair, so who are the guys that you truly love to watch. Not just now, as I said, but throughout the years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I don't dislike Flair. Infact, I like Flair very much. I just hate Flair Marks who think he is the unquestioned lordgod of the ring when I wouldn't even put him in my top 10. If I had a choice to watch a flair match, or a match of the following, I would pick the following without a second thought... -Benoit -Guerrero -Misawa -Kawada -Kobashi -Jumbo -Hansen -Hogan -Vader -Takada -Lyger -Hart -Austin ah hell, lets throw some indy guys in there too.. -American Dragon -Low Ki -AJ Styles Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tim Cooke 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Define worker and wrestler or else this discussion is useless. I view worker and wrestler as characteristics in the same. Flair is praised for having so many great matches. Here is a list of wrestlers who had just as many great matches that were in most cases better than 95% of Flair's best matches. Mitsuharu Misawa Toshiaki Kawada Kenta Kobashi (just look at how his 1993 was better than any 3 years of Flair's combined) Jushin Liger Nobuhiko Takada Akira Hokuto Minami Toyota Aja Kong Volk Han So no, as much as I like Flair, he doesn't come close to the above wrestlers in terms of the quality and substance in matches. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I don't dislike Flair. Infact, I like Flair very much. I just hate Flair Marks who think he is the unquestioned lordgod of the ring when I wouldn't even put him in my top 10. If I had a choice to watch a flair match, or a match of the following, I would pick the following without a second thought... -Benoit -Guerrero -Misawa -Kawada -Kobashi -Jumbo -Hansen -Hogan -Vader -Takada -Lyger -Hart -Austin ah hell, lets throw some indy guys in there too.. -American Dragon -Low Ki -AJ Styles *double blinks* You would rather watch a Hogan match than a Flair match? YOU, the guy who ragged on me for months for sticking up with the WWE product? *gasp* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest commie_050 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 -Hogan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Tim, given the list that you have presented, does that by default mean that you would say that Flair is the best in the US? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 That's cause I like Hogan more than Flair (maybe you can see why I hate Flair marks now ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KTID 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I've seen better. Before I head out for the rest of the day, I'm currious as to who you would name as both "Best Overall Worker" and "Best Wrestler", both of all time. I know you dislike Flair, so who are the guys that you truly love to watch. Not just now, as I said, but throughout the years. I agree with Rudo, i've seen better. As for whom, I've stated many a time that I feel the greatest in-ring worker of all time is Tom 'Dynamite Kid' Billington and the greatest in-ring worker today is Chris Benoit. However, my favourite wrestler *OVERALL* is without a doubt, Rob Van Dam. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I did not say that Hogan is/was a better wrestler than Flair - it just means that I would watch a Hogan match before a Flair match. I dig Hogan's matches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Rudo, I like AJ and everything but he's had some real clunkers as the NWA Champ. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Also, to clarify, by best WRESTLER I mean in-ring skill alone, his wrestling talent and everything. When I say best WORKER, I'm talking about all aspects that make someone a Pro. Wrestler, both in ring and out. I'll be honest, there are guys that I'd rather watch a match of than Ric Flair, but when I sit back and think about who I'd rather watch over and over, both in ring and out, I can't come to the conclusion for anyone other than Flair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest commie_050 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I'm no Flair mark (I'd take Austin or Foley any day of the week) And I loved the Hogan DVD But ... shit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I don't know why wrestlers have to be broken up into "American" and "Japanese" since the Japanese style has been heavily influenced by the American, and vice-versa. Only in non-traditional promotions like UWF-i or Pancrase, I can see the issue being made, since they have different rules and standards for a match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 That's cause I like Hogan more than Flair (maybe you can see why I hate Flair marks now ) I take it you are a life long Hogan fan, yes? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 If I had to watch Flair over-and-over-and-over I'd end up shooting myself in the head by match 13... The indy guys are more ~fun~ to watch, than "better". I dug AJ vs. Ki from Zero-One a ton. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I don't know why wrestlers have to be broken up into "American" and "Japanese" since the Japanese style has been heavily influenced by the American, and vice-versa. Only in non-traditional promotions like UWF-i or Pancrase, I can see the issue being made, since they have different rules and standards for a match. They don't have to be, I simply like to hear what certain people think of both groups, US and Japanese. You can't doubt that there is a huge difference in the style in many cases between the two. It's just, when someone lists all Japanese wrestlers, I'm just currious as to who they enjoy in the states, that's all. *still shocked* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ligerbomb03 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Chris Benoit Dynamite Kid Kenta Kobashi Mitsuharu Misawa Toshiaki Kawada Jushin Liger Eddie Guerrero Jumbo Tsuruta (RIP) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Seeing a few of you mention Tom Billington puts a huge ass smile on my face. I don't care what any of you here say, but I'M the biggest DK mark here. I could watch his matches and never tire of them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Why are you shocked - I'm pretty sure I've stated my Hogan Mark tendancies on this board a few times.... I don't see a lot of style differences with the "big" promotions in Japan. I found the transition quite easily into All Japan style since the pacing was similar to Hogans matches and the slow build wasn't an issue. Maybe promotions like Toryumon and Mich Pro where its more Lucha-based, but even then that's not a huge leap as say, Lucha Libre is. If you want a reference, why don't you just say "who do you like in the WWE or WCW?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 If you want a reference, why don't you just say "who do you like in the WWE or WCW?" As I said, when I see someone ONLY mention Japanese wrestlers, I'm just currious as to who they like in the States, that's all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USC Wuz Robbed! 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Flair is one of the better wrestlers and one of the best workers, but in no way or how is he the greatest. Wrestlers- I would have to go with Bret Hart and Chris Benoit. Benoit had the ability to carry everyone to a watchable match and Hart too. Workers- Austin and Hogan. They were able to get the crowd cheering wildly at any given moment. The Rock is close behind them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Bret Hart will never be the greatest b/c he dogged it when the cameras weren't on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USC Wuz Robbed! 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I'm just stating from what I've seen. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
