Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist Report post Posted November 10, 2003 Granted, I don't like Orton either, given the way he's being shoved down my throat (I'd much prefer Batista to be given the Second Coming Gimmick), but really, they should either give him the ball NOW or dump it alltogether BATISTA?!??!?!?!? Uh, yeah, I like the guy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted November 10, 2003 It wasn't like Orton earned his push. He was doing alright with RNN, then before you know it he's one of the Evolved Horses, sucking up to HHH and having Flair bow to him. That doesn't sit too well with many smarks. Again with this earning a push stuff? Face it guys, no one earns much of anything in the entertainment business. Brock, Angle, and Goldberg didn't earn much of anything before they got their super pushes and those were about 10 times the amount of push that Randy has gotten. As far as sucking up to Triple H... that's part of the character. Have you ever heard a Randy Orton shoot where he sucks up? Because I've never seen him shoot on anything period. And Flair bows to everyone now. Blame the motion on Flair since he's the one doing it. Hel, the guy used to bow to his valets... its not like he puts the same overenflated value in the gestrue that the people here do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slayer 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 Granted, I don't like Orton either, given the way he's being shoved down my throat (I'd much prefer Batista to be given the Second Coming Gimmick), but really, they should either give him the ball NOW or dump it alltogether BATISTA?!??!?!?!? Uh, yeah, I like the guy He's Dave, like him Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slayer 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 One (like AS is saying) was that he had no business being given the free-thinking radical gimmick because, while he could carry off the taped promos, he couldn't carry the thing on a live scale. The other (which is more what I believe) was that he could have worked it well, but never had the chance to run with said gimmick because they inexplicably hooked him with Piper and cut off that gimmick at the knees, shoulders and neck. ONE-UH!! You didn't hear his first couple of "live" promos? Freakin' horrible. But, I'm not telling you anything you shouldn't already know. I must've missed those. Nice use of that slogan though To me it seems like it's one of those circular "Who fucked up more in this case: The writers or the wrestler?" questions Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kardo 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 Before you judge Batista, go track down Val Venis vs. Batista from OVW 27/10/2001. The match shocked the hell out of me the first time I saw it, he sells VERY well and also has a good grip of pyschology. Pity he'll never be able to demonstrate it in the WWE. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist Report post Posted November 10, 2003 Granted, I don't like Orton either, given the way he's being shoved down my throat (I'd much prefer Batista to be given the Second Coming Gimmick), but really, they should either give him the ball NOW or dump it alltogether BATISTA?!??!?!?!? Uh, yeah, I like the guy He's Dave, like him Thats the spirit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted November 10, 2003 It wasn't like Orton earned his push. He was doing alright with RNN, then before you know it he's one of the Evolved Horses, sucking up to HHH and having Flair bow to him. That doesn't sit too well with many smarks. Again with this earning a push stuff? Face it guys, no one earns much of anything in the entertainment business. Brock, Angle, and Goldberg didn't earn much of anything before they got their super pushes and those were about 10 times the amount of push that Randy has gotten. Angle was already over and had one or two good matches to his credit by the time the big push started. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewTS 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 It wasn't like Orton earned his push. He was doing alright with RNN, then before you know it he's one of the Evolved Horses, sucking up to HHH and having Flair bow to him. That doesn't sit too well with many smarks. Again with this earning a push stuff? Face it guys, no one earns much of anything in the entertainment business. Brock, Angle, and Goldberg didn't earn much of anything before they got their super pushes and those were about 10 times the amount of push that Randy has gotten. Angle was already over and had one or two good matches to his credit by the time the big push started. Also, Goldberg lost his heat when he was first defeated, and Brock was heatless (except for Summerslam) until around the time he beat Taker. By "earned," I mean mainly "seems to be worthy in the eyes of the fans." If you throw some nobody without a character, with lousy matches, and little promo time, people aren't going to care about him much or consider him worthy. Why should the marks give a damn about Orton. Tell me. All the time that could be used to build actual wrestlers and feuds between wrestlers is wasted on the Austin wankery and similar bullshit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kahran Ramsus 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 By "earned," I mean mainly "seems to be worthy in the eyes of the fans." If you throw some nobody without a character, with lousy matches, and little promo time, people aren't going to care about him much or consider him worthy. Yes. I don't mean wrestlers should be jobbed out immediately either. Give them a moderate push for the first couple of months with the company. If they get over (Shelton Benjamin), then push them. If not (Randy Orton), then don't. Don't immediately push them to the title like the Bashams or La Resistance. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted November 10, 2003 Angle was already over and had one or two good matches to his credit by the time the big push started. He went undefeated for like his first five months in the company or something along that line. It was quite obvious from the beginning that Vince has always had big plans for pushing Kurt. So by these definition: he didn't earn it through years and years of working. Personally I don't buy into any of this 'paying your dues' stuff myself so it's all good to me. By "earned," I mean mainly "seems to be worthy in the eyes of the fans." If you throw some nobody without a character, with lousy matches, and little promo time, people aren't going to care about him much or consider him worthy. That's more of a company problem than a Orton problem though since they seem to have issues all of a sudden coming up wioth characters that can relate to today's audience. Hell, I'll take a wrestling firefighter at this point if its either that or Mark Jindrak: Guy Who Wrestles. Why should the marks give a damn about Orton. Tell me. All the time that could be used to build actual wrestlers and feuds between wrestlers is wasted on the Austin wankery and similar bullshit. I agree with that. Randy has just gotten a midcard push where he wins more often than not against guys like Maven. People here blow it out of proportion as though its a bad idea to give guys pushes like that. IT'S NOT. It's a bad idea to NOT do that with your midcard. All of the development that those guys might get is washed away by the parade o' Austin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jack_Bauer 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 BATISTA?!??!?!?!? Uh, yeah, I like the guy He's Dave, like him Thats the spirit The only thing I like about Batista is his mic work, which I thought was rather good. I've never seen him in a good match though. Sorry if the quotes are fucked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kahran Ramsus 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 I agree with that. Randy has just gotten a midcard push where he wins more often than not against guys like Maven. People here blow it out of proportion as though its a bad idea to give guys pushes like that. IT'S NOT. It's a bad idea to NOT do that with your midcard. All of the development that those guys might get is washed away by the parade o' Austin. The guy main-evented Summerslam and is heavily rumoured to be fighting in the main event of Wrestlemania XX. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
razazteca 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 Was Randy suppose to get the "rub" when he challenged legends like Foley, HBK, Austin? To me Randy looked like he is/was over his head and weak. Orton has a better chance of getting over if he was only fighting with midcard guys and not Wrestlemania Main Eventers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewTS 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 I agree with that. Randy has just gotten a midcard push where he wins more often than not against guys like Maven. People here blow it out of proportion as though its a bad idea to give guys pushes like that. IT'S NOT. It's a bad idea to NOT do that with your midcard. All of the development that those guys might get is washed away by the parade o' Austin. The guy main-evented Summerslam and is heavily rumoured to be fighting in the main event of Wrestlemania XX. By that same logic, Rikishi is a multi-time main eventer for years, having been in the Armageddon Cell match and many Royal Rumbles. And Goodear--that's another issue: Orton's already an upper midcarder on his way to the main in the office's eyes. Rather than using the low-card guys to move the midcard guys up, they have a static midcard consisting of guys they intend never to elevate, and use them to get over (or attempt to get over) guys like Orton, Jones, Cade, Jindrak, etc. The marks and smarks already like and have connected with guys like RVD, Booker, and Jericho--so WWE not utilizing them, and gambling them to try to make stars out of guys like Orton seems highly illogical. (Note: I'm not going to debate the pros/cons of those guys as main eventers, just using them as examples. Other than the career length--which isn't an advantage for Orton because he's been extremely injury prone so far--there's no real advantage to going with Orton. Plus, if that were really the problem, then why do we have the SAME guys on top for sooo long? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted November 10, 2003 Angle was already over and had one or two good matches to his credit by the time the big push started. He went undefeated for like his first five months in the company or something along that line Yeah, five months. Or, two-ish, with a tag loss and DQs sprinkled in. So by these definition: he didn't earn it through years and years of working. He earned it by getting over quickly and having decent-good matches. Orton has done niether Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KTID 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 He earned it by getting over quickly and having decent-good matches. Well then, by that logic, when Rob Van Dam entered the company in 2001 he should have received a MASSIVE push, as he was *MUCH* more over than Angle could ever be and was puting on better matches than Angle ever has. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 That's laughable. RVD had some good matches in 2001, namely the Unforgiven match with Jericho, the No Mercy 3-way, and the Invasion match with Jeff Hardy. However, none of them even came close to Angle's best matches. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted November 10, 2003 He earned it by getting over quickly and having decent-good matches. Well then, by that logic, when Rob Van Dam entered the company in 2001 he should have received a MASSIVE push, Uhm...Yeah. When have I EVER said no to that? and was puting on better matches than Angle ever has That's a negative though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted November 10, 2003 Well then, by that logic, when Rob Van Dam entered the company in 2001 he should have received a MASSIVE push, as he was *MUCH* more over than Angle could ever be and was puting on better matches than Angle ever has. WOAH! I'm not Angle lover but jeez! Where are the good RVD matches from 2001? Jeff Hardy? pfft. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted November 10, 2003 They had the most horrendously boring ladder match ever at Summerslam. I'm the only one who thinks that though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheFranchise 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 They had the most horrendously boring ladder match ever at Summerslam. I'm the only one who thinks that though. No, you're not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted November 10, 2003 Edge-Christian was even more boring. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted November 10, 2003 Edge-Christian was even more boring. I personally thought that was okay and much better than Summerslam. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kahran Ramsus 0 Report post Posted November 10, 2003 I gave -* to the Summerslam Ladder Match so it isn't just you. RVD had one good match that year, against Jericho at Unforgiven. Everything else was mediocre (No Mercy Three Way) or terrible (the Jeff Hardy matches, vs. Taker at Vengeance). Angle's match at Wrestlemania 2000 (which isn't anywhere near his best match) is better than ANY match RVD has ever had. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted November 10, 2003 At least SS had two spot monkeys in there. Not only that, but two spot monkeys who were probably stoned, too. It was interesting if only to see which one would fuck up first. Edge-Christian didn't even have that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Anglesault Report post Posted November 11, 2003 At least SS had two spot monkeys in there. Not only that, but two spot monkeys who were probably stoned, too. It was interesting if only to see which one would fuck up first. Edge-Christian didn't even have that. Probably. I think the cool E and C finish over the RVD/Hardy fuck up finish is one of the reasons I like the former better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haVoc 0 Report post Posted November 11, 2003 I think Angle/Shane at KOTR that year was better then both. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted November 11, 2003 RVD/Tajiri from Raw shortly after Invasion was a decent match. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dave O'Neill, Journalist Report post Posted November 11, 2003 [quote=Angelslayer,Nov 10 2003, 04:43 PM BATISTA?!??!?!?!? Uh, yeah, I like the guy He's Dave, like him Thats the spirit The only thing I like about Batista is his mic work, which I thought was rather good. I've never seen him in a good match though. Sorry if the quotes are fucked. Some of Batista's OVW is really fricking great. Someone else spoke of a 15minute job with Val Venis, but I haven't seen that one Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted November 11, 2003 [quote=Angelslayer,Nov 10 2003, 04:43 PM BATISTA?!??!?!?!? Uh, yeah, I like the guy He's Dave, like him Thats the spirit The only thing I like about Batista is his mic work, which I thought was rather good. I've never seen him in a good match though. Sorry if the quotes are fucked. Some of Batista's OVW is really fricking great. Someone else spoke of a 15minute job with Val Venis, but I haven't seen that one But this is a weak argument to be honest. So what if he was great in OVW. He's being limited to 2 moves right now and seems to tear muscles on basic moves. Batista and Orton need to prove that they can wrestle a full time schedule for more than a few months before they get pushed to the ME. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
