White Judge Draws Fire for Costume

[Firestarter 0]

wait, wait, wait...Papacita's black?

 

Get outta here!

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

Wait, wait, wait... who the fuck is Charile Sheen?

[Ravenbomb 0]

wait, wait, wait...Papacita's black?

 

Get outta here!

with pleasure

*Skips merrily back into the movies folder*

[Guest MikeSC]

Mike, I'm just wondering: Do you think most black Americans choose the lifestyle they live?

As much as trailer park whites choose their lifestyle.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Economically? If you take them out as a group alone, black Americans would be in the top 10 of world economies (read that in a magazine a few years back).

Well, we're not operating on a world economy, so how is that comment even relevant?

 

For a group SO oppressed, blacks don't seem to be suffering THAT bad economically.

 

Jamaicans, Haitians, and Africans have a common heritage?Hmm, if no other groups have a common heritage or culture, how in the heck do they manage to make the SAT'S (and, well, EVERY standardized test ever produced) "culturally biased" for whites and asians and against blacks and Hispanics?

I'm sure you have a point here, but I'm missing it. No one mentioned a thing about SATs, no one mentioned a thing about Africans, Haitians or what have you. My point was that racial and ethnic divides are based more on common culture and ideology than physical appearance. The fact that you actually chose to group Africans, Jamaicans and Haitians along those lines actually supports my point.

 

No, I'm thinking of the three main places that black Americans tend to hail from. Jamaica is a big one. Africa is a big one. Haiti is a big one. They hail from other places, but those three regions tend to be the biggest. Culturally, they have virtually NOTHING in common.

 

The Japanese were put in concentration camps in the 40's and thrive.

Koreans were OPPONENTS of ours in a war and came to this country speaking virtually no English. They thrive.

Ditto Vietnamese.

Ditto Chinese.

 

Why can't BLACKS do the same?

 

Now I said that I'm now out to place blame, because as I said before, there's no single, definite reason for black America's problems today. But since you seem to adament that I identify a cause, you can't deny that slavery is indeed a major cause from African American's disproportionate development in U.S. society.

 

I can EASILY say it. Without even batting an eye. Slavery is NOT the reason why blacks today are in almost any sense of the word, behind whites and Asians in almost any category you can name.

 

The "black leadership" has found it does best not by helping blacks actually improve, but by simply playing on white guilt to give THEM (the leadership money). Add into the mix, poor blacks so envy the blacks that DO succeed that successful blacks are accused of being "not black" and, thus, success is actively DISCOURAGED.

 

The problem is the black community and their EMBRACING of WHATEVER flimsy justification they can for their poor performance.

 

You pointed out that we as African Americans really have nothing in common with native Africans, and, all generalizations aside, this is true.  See, unlike Japanese Americans, who were victims of persecution, African Americans are actually a PRODUCT of persecution.  Whereas the Japanese American ideology has its foundation in Japanese tradition,  the African American ideology more or less stems from the American slave mentality (that blacks are subhuman, inferior to whites, the "Willie Lynch syndrome", which, without getting into the whole story, basically describes the practice by white slave owners of dividing and conquering on the basis of skin pigmentation; lighter-skinned blacks were given preferential treatment in relation to darker-skinned blacks, causing tensions between the two groups that, believe it or not, still do exist today).

 

That is a cop-out. Japanese-Americans could have EASILY wallowed in self-pity after their unfair treatment --- but they CHOSE not to. They simply dusted themselves off and improved their collective station in life to the point where, once again, they are victims of prejudice in such critical areas as college acceptance.

 

And if blacks are going to have racist fights amongst themselves, then improvement is impossible. Blame whites if you wish --- but that problem is a problem FOR black Americans caused BY black Americans.

 

As a rule, most whites don't give enough of a damn TO oppress blacks. Not worth the time or the energy. And corporations receive NO benefits from racism, so they don't do it, either --- believe it or not.

 

And it's not like the Japanese, who were persecuted for maybe 4 or 5 years and then released.

 

Hmm, they forfeited their property, were hoarded out of their cities and moved to concentration camps. Call it a modern-day Trail of Tears, as it is not too far from the truth.

 

And they overcame it quickly. And they had BITTER anger on the part of most Americans to overcome as well.

 

But they did it.

 

Again, why can't the black community?

 

With African Americans, the slave mentality was actually passed on from generation to generation, and when you consider that most people inherit their parents' value system, it's a lot harder for blacks to bounce back from their hardship than it is for Asian American immigrants.

 

Seeing as how there hasn't been a slave since 1865, it's not quite valid. As for racist treatment --- Italians (well, my ex-fiancee excluded) and Irish seemed to overcome THEIR problems in the early 1900's. God knows THEY were viewed as being about as low as blacks.

 

Chinese were viewed as being as low as blacks.

 

Both groups no longer suffer from that.

 

Why?

 

Because they got off their butts and didn't whine and complain. They simply went out and lifted their collective groups up.

 

Why can black America not do the same?

 

And all of this is without taking into consideration the racial oppression blacks had to endure after emancipation.

 

Other groups had worlds of oppression. They overcame it.

 

Black Americans biggest problem is BLACK AMERICANS. When black parents force their kids to do homework and study, education numbers will improve markedly. When black women STOP having illegitimate children at near-epidemic levels, there will be LESS black crime.

Illegitimacy is at near-epidemic levels??? Black parents don't force their children do homework?? What are you basing this bullshit on???

 

Illegitimacy? Um, try ANY STUDY ON THE SUBJECT PUBLISHED IN THE LAST TEN YEARS. It's not exactly an unheard of problem.

 

As for black parents' apathy towards their child's schoolwork, that comes from having MANY friends who entered the world of education and ALL have said, without fail, that when it comes time for parent-teacher conferences, black parents, by about a 95% rate thus far, are NEVER there. Should they call because they are worried about the problems the child is having in school, they can get nobody to even talk to them.

 

Such as? Can you even name one [issue affecting African Americans that isn't addressed]

 

Well, there's the disproportionate allocation of resources for services crucial to to inner city residents

 

Washington D.C, a predominantly black region, spends more per student than almost any district in America.

 

They are amongst the worst.

 

Yet black leaders oppose such moves as school vouchers.

 

there's also the lack of funding provided to inner city public schools, to a lesser extent, practices of institutional racism in society (for example, why are there stricter penalties for crack-cocaine, primarily found in poor inner city communities, and powered cocaine, more widely used by whites), just to name a few. 

 

Crack does tend to be more lethal and does tend to cause more violence.

 

As for stereotypes that stem from slavery, the general assumption that blacks are unintelligent, that they're criminal, to a lesser extent, that they're sex-crazed, promicuous, lazy, etc. 

 

Hey, black men LOVE the stereotype that they're more blessed than whites. I've NEVER heard a black man complain about that one yet.

 

As for the stereotypes, sadly, the PERFORMANCE of black Americans when compared to other groups does not do a heck of a lot to disprove them. Blacks do worse on every standardized test known to man. Their grammar and vocabulary tend (this is not universal) to be sub-standard. And there is an epidemic of illegitimacy amongst young blacks.

 

No offense, but when you're slaves for a nice chunk of early American history, your cultural achievements will be more than mildly lacking in America.

But that's not the case. Blacks have contributed a great deal to American society, most of which are largely overlooked, even predominantly African American schools. Throwing up a couple of commercials once a year about how a black man invented the light bulb is hardly sufficient justification for this.

 

Then what about EVERY OTHER GROUP? Why focus on blacks? Do OTHER groups have no need to have their collective egos stroked?

 

Africa has long had strife amongst the various groups --- whites did not cause that to happen.

We're veering off topic here, but you've gotta be crazy to say that Colonialism didn't cause and/or aggravate the majority social conflict in Africa.

 

It didn't.

 

Heck, I could more easily argue that Africa was BETTER OFF under colonial rule than they are right now.

 

The problem for black America lies solely in the hands of black America and can only be solved by black America.

Where in my post did I say that blacks should receive handouts from whites?

 

If you complain about racism holding down blacks, it is a very implied assumption.

-=Mike

[Firestarter 0]

Black parents don't force their children do homework??  What are you basing this bullshit on???

As for black parents' apathy towards their child's schoolwork, that comes from having MANY friends who entered the world of education and ALL have said, without fail, that when it comes time for parent-teacher conferences, black parents, by about a 95% rate thus far, are NEVER there. Should they call because they are worried about the problems the child is having in school, they can get nobody to even talk to them.

"[A]n NAEP study of TV watching habits shows that almost half of black fourth graders spend five hours or more watching TV on a typical school day. Nearly a third of black twelfth graders watch five hours or more of TV a day. That's five times the proportion among whites and more than twice that for Hispanics...

Harvard economist Ronald F. Ferguson's survey of students in 15 affluent school districts shows that black students 'were 20% less likely to complete their homework each night.' Ferguson also reports that nearly half of all black students state that most of the time they don't understand their reading assignments very well - nearly twice the rate of non-comprehension for white students...

The Thernstroms also cite Laurence Steinberg's analysis regarding the "trouble threshold" - the lowest grade students can receive before getting in trouble with their parents. For Asian-American students, that point is an A-; for whites, a B-; and for blacks and Hispanics, a C-."

- Peter Kirsanow on No Excuses

[EricMM 0]

None of this is news to anyone who attended a reasonably integrated school recently.

 

I'm talking highschool here.

 

One could argue that Latinos have an excuse for scoring lower on tests; english is their second language and that is never easy. Well it isn't ALWAYS but you know what I mean.

 

The same can be said for the chinese kid with the 800 math. He may still score low on the verbal SATs due to difficulties w/ the language.

 

But blacks have spent just as much time in this country as whites have, speaking the same language and all. This CURRENT (25 and younger) generation has lived in practically the same culture as white america.

 

Racism is dead. The civil rights leaders killed it. Sure there may be slight vestiges of it in isolated cases but it is not RELEVANT. The vast majority of Americans are no longer judging black people based upon their skin color.

 

They're judging them on their image, their language, their grades, and their attitude.

[Guest Brian]

Racism is far from dead. Look at the criminal justice system or the latest hate crime report. 2500 white against black vs. 719 black on white. Fourteen percent of the population, forty seven percent in jail. Does anyone realize how hard it is to get a job coming out of prison? For every white drug arrests, there's three drug arrests. For every persecution, there seven more blacks. 20/20 did a report a couple years back where they went they took a lack guy and a white guys, same education and job experience, brought them into an Ohio town, and watched as the black guy was constantly refused housing, service, and treated rudely. It's a lot easier to say racism doesn't exist and that were all the same when you're on the other side of the fence.

[Guest MikeSC]

Racism is far from dead.

 

Dead. Buried. Eaten by worms.

 

Look at the criminal justice system

 

Little question --- how many of the blacks are innocent?

 

or the latest hate crime report. 2500 white against black vs. 719 black on white.

 

Of course, as we learned from King, almost all white on black crime is listed as a hate crime, but not all black on white crime is listed as such.

 

The Denny beating, apparently, was NOT a hate crime.

 

Fourteen percent of the population, forty seven percent in jail.

 

Do they commit the crimes?

 

Does anyone realize how hard it is to get a job coming out of prison?

 

Stop committing crimes.

 

For every white drug arrests, there's three drug arrests.

 

Again, it's not like the blacks are innocent. And the police get no benefits in protecting whites from incarceration. Heck, busting up drug rings is good for cops. They bust any dealer they can find.

 

For every persecution, there seven more blacks. 20/20 did a report a couple years back where they went  they took a lack guy and a white guys, same education and job experience, brought them into an Ohio town, and watched as the black guy was constantly refused housing, service, and treated rudely.

 

And all we saw was what ABC decided to show. I can say that ABC has, in the past, had problems with manufacturing stories (remember the Bi-Lo meat scandal from the early 90's?)

 

I get treated rudely by blacks. I don't bitch and moan. I just never return to their damned store and go to one where I'm NOT treated rudely. No need to dwell over it.

 

It isn't always racism.

 

People CAN just be total dicks, regardless of skin color.

 

It's a lot easier to say racism doesn't exist and that were all the same when you're on the other side of the fence.

 

We're not all the same.

 

We're saying that black America's problems are CAUSED by black America.

-=Mike

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Racism is far from dead.

I agree with racism being far from dead.

 

There will ALWAYS be racism -- humans hate other humans. That will never change.

 

But that's where we part ways.

 

* Hate crimes? Pffft. Hate crimes are the dumbest idea in the long list of dumb ideas. I wonder how many "hate crimes" are committed on whites but go unchecked?

 

* Apparently those that get caught committing crimes and get sent to the Big House don't realize how hard it is to get a job as an ex-con.

 

* There are two sources I'd like to note in regards to a person that goes to jail.

 

Exhibit A: Jim Carrey in "Liar, Liar" when talking to a client of his asking Jim to help him out of a legal jam -- "STOP BREAKING THE LAW ASSHOLE"

 

Exhibit B: Chris Rock in a skit called "How not to get your ass kicked by the PO-lice." Step 1: OBEY THE LAW!

 

* Didn't see the 20/20 piece so I can't comment on it. However, I read a John Leo column years back about a newspaper doing a similar "study" in which a black and white guy both applied to various banks for loans. The white guy got more loans.

 

OMG RACISM.

 

Oh, wait, what the media failed to indicate is that the white guy had better credit.

 

Not everything that happens to you in this world is due to racism...

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

One correction, Mike...

 

...Irish seemed to overcome THEIR problems in the early 1900's. God knows THEY were viewed as being about as low as blacks.

Lower.

[Papacita 0]

If you complain about racism holding down blacks, it is a very implied assumption.

I've maintained from the beginning that there are many causes for deprivation in African American communities. I never identified racism as a sole cause, nor did I suggest that blacks aren't responsible for their own situation (I'll be the first to admit that if more blacks took responsibility for their situation, then racism wouldn't be as big an issue). My point overall was that you can't adequately assess the true cause of a problem without looking at the history of events that shape them.

 

For a group SO oppressed, blacks don't seem to be suffering THAT bad economically.

The point was irrelevant, because African Americans are opperating within the US economy, not on a world economy. Any perceived deprivation would be relative to economic standing of other groups operating within the society as opposed to some country half way across the world.

 

No, I'm thinking of the three main places that black Americans tend to hail from. Jamaica is a big one. Africa is a big one. Haiti is a big one. They hail from other places, but those three regions tend to be the biggest. Culturally, they have virtually NOTHING in common.

Which was my point from the beginning. Racial and ethnic divides are based more on common culture and ideology than physical appearance. Did you even read my post before you went on your little tirade?

 

As far as your comparing blacks to other American immigrants, again, the situations aren't really relative to one another because, again, no other immigrant group has had to endure oppression as severe as African Americans' oppression for as long a period of time. Most oppression immigrants faced in America, regardless of severity, is largely limited to the first or second generations, thus having little to no consequence on the cultural value systems. Africans were enslaved in the United States for well over 200 years, over numerous generations, meaning that for more than two centuries, their collective mindset was shaped in a manner that was detrimental to themselves and beneficial to slaveholders. Contrary to what you may believe, that mindset isn't just gonna vanish with the signing of some document. Add to the fact that you had Jim Crow laws amongst other things to reinforce this slave mindset, and that blacks and whites were at odds with one another for the majority of the 20th century, to the point where, to play off of the point Spicy McHaggis made earlier, for the most part, this current generation of African Americans (born in the 80's and 90's) is really the first generation that hasn't hard to incur any kind of overt, large scale racist resistance. You really can't say the same about the other groups you compared them to.

And if blacks are going to have racist fights amongst themselves, then improvement is impossible. Blame whites if you wish --- but that problem is a problem FOR black Americans caused BY black Americans.

When the actual problem is a DIRECT result of slavery...an intentional result at that...how can you argue that slavery isn't largely to blame?

 

Crack does tend to be more lethal and does tend to cause more violence.

Yet the average sentences for crack violations tends to be longer than those for armed robbery, arson and manslaughter. It should also be noted that the majority of crack addicts are white, yet minorities make up the largest percentage of those imprisoned for crack violations.

 

Illegitimacy? Um, try ANY STUDY ON THE SUBJECT PUBLISHED IN THE LAST TEN YEARS. It's not exactly an unheard of problem.

I wouldn't say that teenage pregnancy isn't a problem, but I would hardly refer to it as epedemic.

 

As for black parents' apathy towards their child's schoolwork, that comes from having MANY friends who entered the world of education and ALL have said, without fail, that when it comes time for parent-teacher conferences, black parents, by about a 95% rate thus far, are NEVER there. Should they call because they are worried about the problems the child is having in school, they can get nobody to even talk to them

Just because blacks don't interact as often with teachers doesn't mean that they don't care about their children's educations. Parents are oftentimes unable to make parent-teacher conferences due to conflicts in their working schedules. This could also account for at least some of the statistics regarding black children and the amount of TV they watch on school nights, especially with lower income families, as parents have to work later, and thus have less time to spend watching their children. And just to give a specific example of how lack of association with teachers doesn't necessarily mean apathy, I'll reference my own father, who for the most part, never interacted with my teachers when I was in school (that was largely left to my mother), yet he was MUCH more strict than she was in making sure that I got my work done and kept good grades.

 

No offense, but when you're slaves for a nice chunk of early American history, your cultural achievements will be more than mildly lacking in America.

But that's not the case. Blacks have contributed a great deal to American society, most of which are largely overlooked, even predominantly African American schools. Throwing up a couple of commercials once a year about how a black man invented the light bulb is hardly sufficient justification for this.

 

Then what about EVERY OTHER GROUP? Why focus on blacks? Do OTHER groups have no need to have their collective egos stroked?

If it's relevant, their histories should be focused on, especially in their own schools. There's no reason that any group should be short-changed on its history.

 

I could more easily argue that Africa was BETTER OFF under colonial rule than they are right now.

 

No one would argue contrary. Your comment was that colonialism had no bearing on the present day condition of Africa.

[Guest MikeSC]

If you complain about racism holding down blacks, it is a very implied assumption.

I've maintained from the beginning that there are many causes for deprivation in African American communities. I never identified racism as a sole cause, nor did I suggest that blacks aren't responsible for their own situation (I'll be the first to admit that if more blacks took responsibility for their situation, then racism wouldn't be as big an issue). My point overall was that you can't adequately assess the true cause of a problem without looking at the history of events that shape them.

 

In this case, blaming racism is simply a cop-out for the failure blacks have come to accept. Blaming yourself is NEVER easy --- but until black America sits down and says "You know, even if whites were as open-minded as we think they should be, we'd STILL be messed up as it stands", improvement will not occur.

 

For a group SO oppressed, blacks don't seem to be suffering THAT bad economically.

The point was irrelevant, because African Americans are opperating within the US economy, not on a world economy. Any perceived deprivation would be relative to economic standing of other groups operating within the society as opposed to some country half way across the world.

 

Blacks can succeed. Oprah, God knows, is probably the most influential person on TV. They have to want to and have to work for it. A lot of blacks seem to have a "you OWE me" mentality and this will NEVER work.

 

No, I'm thinking of the three main places that black Americans tend to hail from. Jamaica is a big one. Africa is a big one. Haiti is a big one. They hail from other places, but those three regions tend to be the biggest. Culturally, they have virtually NOTHING in common.

Which was my point from the beginning. Racial and ethnic divides are based more on common culture and ideology than physical appearance. Did you even read my post before you went on your little tirade?

 

You kept discussing how other groups don't have a shared cultural identity while blacks do.

 

Blacks don't have one, either.

 

As far as your comparing blacks to other American immigrants, again, the situations aren't really relative to one another because, again, no other immigrant group has had to endure oppression as severe as African Americans' oppression for as long a period of time.

 

Umm, the Chinese were treated like dirt for decades. Ditto the Irish.

 

They simply overcame it. They could have sat back and said that the world hates them so why try --- but they did not do so.

 

Blacks need to adopt this.

 

Most oppression immigrants faced in America, regardless of severity, is largely limited to the first or second generations, thus having little to no consequence on the cultural value systems.  Africans were enslaved in the United States for well over 200 years, over numerous generations,  meaning that for more than two centuries, their collective mindset was shaped in a manner that was detrimental to themselves and beneficial to slaveholders.

 

And they've been free now for, what, 138 years?

 

That's, what, about 7 generations?

 

At what point does this "slave mentality" go by the wayside? And they were victims of racist for about 100 years after that. The Chinese, who didn't even come OVER here until the 1800's, were treated like dirt for about that long.

 

Contrary to what you may believe, that mindset isn't just gonna vanish with the signing of some document.  Add to the fact that you had Jim Crow laws amongst other things to reinforce this slave mindset, and that blacks and whites were at odds with one another for the majority of the 20th century, to the point where, to play off of the point Spicy McHaggis made earlier, for the most part, this current generation of African Americans (born in the 80's and 90's) is really the first generation that hasn't hard to incur any kind of overt, large scale racist resistance.

 

About two generations now, actually.

 

You really can't say the same about the other groups you compared them to. 

 

The Japanese.

 

And if blacks are going to have racist fights amongst themselves, then improvement is impossible. Blame whites if you wish --- but that problem is a problem FOR black Americans caused BY black Americans.

When the actual problem is a DIRECT result of slavery...an intentional result at that...how can you argue that slavery isn't largely to blame?

 

Because it is a problem of small and feeble-minded blacks. The slavery connection is a really weak explanation for it.

 

Crack does tend to be more lethal and does tend to cause more violence.

Yet the average sentences for crack violations tends to be longer than those for armed robbery, arson and manslaughter. It should also be noted that the majority of crack addicts are white, yet minorities make up the largest percentage of those imprisoned for crack violations.

 

Do the blacks SELL it? Sellers ALWAYS get more punishment than users.

 

Illegitimacy? Um, try ANY STUDY ON THE SUBJECT PUBLISHED IN THE LAST TEN YEARS. It's not exactly an unheard of problem.

I wouldn't say that teenage pregnancy isn't a problem, but I would hardly refer to it as epedemic.

 

By every report, the illegitimacy rate is nearly 80%. That ISN'T epidemic to you? No fathers --- which tends to be the case with illegitimacy --- has a very strong and direct correllation to crime and other social ills.

 

As for black parents' apathy towards their child's schoolwork, that comes from having MANY friends who entered the world of education and ALL have said, without fail, that when it comes time for parent-teacher conferences, black parents, by about a 95% rate thus far, are NEVER there. Should they call because they are worried about the problems the child is having in school, they can get nobody to even talk to them

Just because blacks don't interact as often with teachers doesn't mean that they don't care about their children's educations.

 

See Marney's post. Also, read ANYTHING by the Thernstroms. An unwillingness to discuss a child's education is a very strong indicator that concern about it is weak.

 

Parents are oftentimes unable to make parent-teacher conferences due to conflicts in their working schedules.

 

White parents tend to find a way to do it. As do Asian parents. Do they not have jobs?

 

This could also account for at least some of the statistics regarding black children and the amount of TV they watch on school nights, especially with lower income families, as parents have to work later, and thus have less time to spend watching their children. And just to give a specific example of how lack of association with teachers doesn't necessarily mean apathy, I'll reference my own father, who for the most part, never interacted with my teachers when I was in school (that was largely left to my mother), yet he was MUCH more strict than she was in making sure that I got my work done and kept good grades.

 

Well, good for you on that one. Ask ANY educator in the country and they'll tell you the same thing. Blacks have the lowest grades for a reason. They have the lowest SAT scores for a reason.

 

And that reason is NOT cultural bias.

 

No offense, but when you're slaves for a nice chunk of early American history, your cultural achievements will be more than mildly lacking in America.

But that's not the case. Blacks have contributed a great deal to American society, most of which are largely overlooked, even predominantly African American schools. Throwing up a couple of commercials once a year about how a black man invented the light bulb is hardly sufficient justification for this.

 

Then what about EVERY OTHER GROUP? Why focus on blacks? Do OTHER groups have no need to have their collective egos stroked?

If it's relevant, their histories should be focused on, especially in their own schools. There's no reason that any group should be short-changed on its history

.

 

See, that causes a problem. A lot of groups' "history" has little to no bearing on the real world today.

 

And, having sat through some of those black history things, they tend to QUICKLY become white-bashing seminars. God knows several white students complained to MY high school administration when the black history school-wide presentation degenerated into that.

 

I could more easily argue that Africa was BETTER OFF under colonial rule than they are right now.

 

No one would argue contrary. Your comment was that colonialism had no bearing on the present day condition of Africa.

 

Africa was like that before colonialism.

-=Mike

[EricMM 0]

I would like to say that the Chinese endured as much if not MORE racism in the 19th and 20th centuries than blacks did. They were not even allowed into this country. There were laws, passed by congress, banning Chinese people from coming here unless they had a white person to vouch for them.

 

Again, they didn't allow this to stop them.

 

I just wonder what in the world white people are supposed to do to fix black people's problems.

 

Because I am sick of the unspoken blame of the "white man" that is pervasive in black culture.

 

Also if the blacks arrested for Crack are guilty, whats the problem?

[Papacita 0]

In this case, blaming racism is simply a cop-out for the failure blacks have come to accept. Blaming yourself is NEVER easy --- but until black America sits down and says "You know, even if whites were as open-minded as we think they should be, we'd STILL be messed up as it stands", improvement will not occur.

I agree for the most part, and on average, I'd say that most black movements I've seen (not including people like Jesse and the NAACP, I believe are more of a detriment to the community than anything) do share this mindset, doing more to preach upliftment to the people than they would to denigrate whites. It's all a matter of people listening.

 

Blacks can succeed. Oprah, God knows, is probably the most influential person on TV. They have to want to and have to work for it. A lot of blacks seem to have a "you OWE me" mentality and this will NEVER work.

Well you can't expect people to feel economically empowered when you've only got a small percentage of the population becoming successful, and quite frankly, most blacks simply haven't have the same opportunities that Oprah had.

 

You kept discussing how other groups don't have a shared cultural identity while blacks do.

This whole debate originated over why it's worse to insult someone on the basis of race as opposed to being tall, and my answer was that on average, tall people don't have a common cultural ideology, while in America, the social, economic and cultural divide is a racial one. Nowhere did I say that every black man across the world has the same cultural identity. Not even every black man in the United States has the same cultural identity.

 

Umm, the Chinese were treated like dirt for decades. Ditto the Irish

Show me how it affected them culturally to the same degree as blacks, and I'll accept your point.

 

And if blacks are going to have racist fights amongst themselves, then improvement is impossible. Blame whites if you wish --- but that problem is a problem FOR black Americans caused BY black Americans.

When the actual problem is a DIRECT result of slavery...an intentional result at that...how can you argue that slavery isn't largely to blame?

Because it is a problem of small and feeble-minded blacks. The slavery connection is a really weak explanation for it.

Eh...your opinion. I'll just agree to disagree rather than keep arguing the point.

 

White parents tend to find a way to [make parent-teacher conferences]. As do Asian parents. Do they not have jobs?

Now I'm not sure whether you're referring specifically to more affluent schools or inner city public schools. I really don't have an answer for more wealthy schools, because outside of extreme circumstances, I'd imagine it's not all that difficult to take off from work (maybe more blacks are cheap, I dunno, lol), but I do know that it's a lot harder in lower income communities, where you've got parents having to work 2 and 3 jobs just to break even. Also, there's the fact that some people that do care are simply turned off by the attitudes of the instructors. I remember recently, there was a radio show where a lot of black parents called in to talk about interactions between families and schools, and generally, the teachers stereotyped them as bad parents, one instructor going as far to say "You people have got to learn to put down the crack pipe and motivate your children". Now personally, I blame the parents here for allowing people to come into their communities and disrespect them in such a manner, but in cases like these, it's somewhat understandable why these people would be more reluctant to interact with schools after such treatment.

 

Blacks have the lowest grades for a reason. They have the lowest SAT scores for a reason.

I think that SAT scores are more reflective of the quality of education received and the availibility of test preparation resources than any kind of cultural bias.

 

Africa was like that before colonialism.

No it wasn't. Fact is that many of the feuding "ethnicities" didn't exist before colonialism, and came into existance as a result of social grouping by imperialists. Furthermore, prior to colonialism, there were no land boundaries to confine said "ethnicities" to, meaning that there were less land conflicts and disputes over cultural domination. Pre-colonial Africa was in no way, shape or form like present day Africa.

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I don't bother arguing about racism with Mike. Once he willingly admitted to being encouraged to not serve blacks at a restaurant he once worked, and than tried to justify it with blatantly racist remarks (although he'll probably shoot back with how they're not racist and how *I* am the ignorant one for insulting his fair and balanced beliefs), my insensitive ass tiptoed out of the room and let someone else who gave a shit handle it.

 

I mean really dude, what the fuck were you thinking when you said all that? And you were being SERIOUS?

[Justice 0]

I do agree with a few points that Mike makes. I do believe it's no longer white priveledge or racism that is the major force holding back the Black community. They really need to look within themselves and start trying to improve their own culture rather than trying to change others. I honestly think if they started to crack down on the whole "I'm a thug and I live the street life" sub-culture mentality they'd be so much better off and able to improve so much quicker. But that's just me.

 

Show me how it affected them culturally to the same degree as blacks, and I'll accept your point.

 

The Irish have literally been the red-headed bastard children of the UK for a long, long time. They've been pretty much subjegated and oppressed socially far longer than the Africans have been (I'd say about 800 years compared to whenever you think Slavery in Africa really picked up). When the Civil War was being fought it wasn't uncommon to see signs on bar doors that said "No dogs and No Irish". In the 1900s they were a really sizable part of the disadvantaged and abused Northern factory workers. They are white as can be and they've had a fucking tough time being accepted because of their ethinicity. To deny this is just utter idiocy.

 

Chinese as well were often looked at as second-class citizens throughout the 1800's. They were constantly abused as rail-workers and there was a healthy amount of racism and oppression chucked at them as well. They suffered quite a bit as well.

 

But I would like you to tell me how their suffering is that much different than that of the Blacks. I think the crimes against them are at least equal to what has happened to blacks, if not a bit more (Especially with the Irish since it has been going on that much longer...).

 

Also, there's the fact that some people that do care are simply turned off by the attitudes of the instructors.

 

For low-income areas, I'm calling BS. My mother is a speechpathologist in Detroit (A speech teacher with a Psychology degree) and she has seen black parents pull knives on teachers, attack them, utterly bitch them out and many other things. They've threatened to wait out in the parking lot for them even. And it's not as though these teachers all white: A lot of these are black teachers there, and they'll tell you that it's more the parents not really caring and being adamant about them being right rather than the teachers being rude. While you might think my mom is biased, she's worked there for 20 years and this is what she has always seen there. It's really sad and I'm sure it doesn't apply at all to Middle Class Blacks, but the parents in these inner-city schools are really disrespectful to the teachers and it's often unprovoked.

 

On Colonialism: I wonder, honestly, how badly AIDS would have ravaged Africans had the European Powers never come, thus never putting down the modest framework for most of these countries, which would mean no AIDS medicines or prevention because it would be impossible to distribute these things. All things considered, Colonialism helped them much more than just staying as isolated tribes stuck in the dark ages.

[bobobrazil1984 0]

Wow, what a dumbass (the judge)... i mean in what frame of mind could a judge decide that wearing BLACKFACE, with the connotations and history of such a practice, in a prison costume, is anything but utter stupidity?

 

Forget racism, This guy should be clobbered for sheer stupidity

[Guest MikeSC]

I don't bother arguing about racism with Mike.

 

Because you tend to be a blithering idiot.

 

And a quivering bowl of jello when it comes to ANYTHING in the same ballpark as a differing viewpoint.

 

But, hey, cowardice and idiocy works well for some people.

 

I mean, not for YOU, but for others...

 

Once he willingly admitted to being encouraged to not serve blacks at a restaurant he once worked, and than tried to justify it with blatantly racist remarks (although he'll probably shoot back with how they're not racist and how *I* am the ignorant one for insulting his fair and balanced beliefs), my insensitive ass tiptoed out of the room and let someone else who gave a shit handle it.

 

I simply stated WHY blacks get "poor service" in restaurants. Again, BLACK SERVERS don't want to wait on black tables. But I suppose they're racists too, huh?

 

What a moron.

 

I mean really dude, what the fuck were you thinking when you said all that? And you were being SERIOUS?

 

How 'bout you spend a few minutes a day in the real world?

 

It'll be an eye-opener.

-=Mike

...Your seldom-made appearances only serve to disprove the notion of "absence makes the heart grow fonder"

[Guest MikeSC]

In this case, blaming racism is simply a cop-out for the failure blacks have come to accept. Blaming yourself is NEVER easy --- but until black America sits down and says "You know, even if whites were as open-minded as we think they should be, we'd STILL be messed up as it stands", improvement will not occur.

I agree for the most part, and on average, I'd say that most black movements I've seen (not including people like Jesse and the NAACP, I believe are more of a detriment to the community than anything) do share this mindset, doing more to preach upliftment to the people than they would to denigrate whites. It's all a matter of people listening.

 

If black leadership believed MLK's beliefs half as much as they claim they do (the civil rights groups weren't fond of King right before he died), they'd abandon this whole "white racism" crap. It is a fund-raising tactic, but it avoids the PROBLEMS that they claim to care about.

 

If the problems in black America ARE resolved and there are STILL huge problems, then racism will be a more viable reason for it.

 

Blacks can succeed. Oprah, God knows, is probably the most influential person on TV. They have to want to and have to work for it. A lot of blacks seem to have a "you OWE me" mentality and this will NEVER work.

Well you can't expect people to feel economically empowered when you've only got a small percentage of the population becoming successful, and quite frankly, most blacks simply haven't have the same opportunities that Oprah had.

 

Most whites don't have the chance, either. Listening to some black leaders talk, you'd think that my being white means I'm all but guaranteed a seven-figure salary.

 

Success requires hard work. Success requires huge risks. And as long as the black leaders reinforce the belief that success is all-but-impossible for blacks, then success won't be coming forth.

 

You kept discussing how other groups don't have a shared cultural identity while blacks do.

This whole debate originated over why it's worse to insult someone on the basis of race as opposed to being tall, and my answer was that on average, tall people don't have a common cultural ideology, while in America, the social, economic and cultural divide is a racial one. Nowhere did I say that every black man across the world has the same cultural identity. Not even every black man in the United States has the same cultural identity.

 

Then I misunderstood you. I do apologize.

 

Umm, the Chinese were treated like dirt for decades. Ditto the Irish

Show me how it affected them culturally to the same degree as blacks, and I'll accept your point.

 

Others have already addressed this issue. I will not beat the dead horse.

 

And if blacks are going to have racist fights amongst themselves, then improvement is impossible. Blame whites if you wish --- but that problem is a problem FOR black Americans caused BY black Americans.

When the actual problem is a DIRECT result of slavery...an intentional result at that...how can you argue that slavery isn't largely to blame?

Because it is a problem of small and feeble-minded blacks. The slavery connection is a really weak explanation for it.

Eh...your opinion. I'll just agree to disagree rather than keep arguing the point.

 

So be it. I'll tell you that whites don't care, honestly, about light- or dark-skinned blacks and the differences between them.

 

Whites don't care. No group really cares. It's up to the various minority groups (not just blacks) to recognize that the "majority" in this country, by and large, doesn't care enough to keep up with their idiotic infighting.

 

White parents tend to find a way to [make parent-teacher conferences]. As do Asian parents. Do they not have jobs?

Now I'm not sure whether you're referring specifically to more affluent schools or inner city public schools.

 

I'm referring to all schools. Study after study has shown that, for whatever reason, black and Hispanic families are far less involved in their child's education than whites and Asians --- and THAT is the biggest reason why those two groups do the worst in almost every academic category.

 

That --- and some really moronic members of the assorted groups bash anybody who strives to succeed.

 

I really don't have an answer for more wealthy schools, because outside of extreme circumstances, I'd imagine it's not all that difficult to take off from work (maybe more blacks are cheap, I dunno, lol), but I do know that it's a lot harder in lower income communities, where you've got parents having to work 2 and 3 jobs just to break even.

 

It's actually quite difficult to get time off from a high-paying job. They pay you well and expect you to be there. Getting time off for ANY reason is no easier.

 

Also, there's the fact that some people that do care are simply turned off by the attitudes of the instructors.  I remember recently, there was a radio show where a lot of black parents called in to talk about interactions between families and schools, and generally, the teachers stereotyped them as bad parents, one instructor going as far to say "You people have got to learn to put down the crack pipe and motivate your children".  Now personally, I blame the parents here for allowing people to come into their communities and disrespect them in such a manner, but in cases like these, it's somewhat understandable why these people would be more reluctant to interact with schools after such treatment. 

 

The teacher was a jackass. They exist in all groups.

 

But it was only ONE teacher. Most high school students have multiple classes with multiple instructors. The parents allowed ONE instructor to make them not wish to be involved with their child's education?

 

No offense, but that is some seriously bad parenting.

 

Blacks have the lowest grades for a reason. They have the lowest SAT scores for a reason.

I think that SAT scores are more reflective of the quality of education received and the availibility of test preparation resources than any kind of cultural bias.

 

Actually, the differences in the groups stays fairly static over all of the socio-economic groups.

 

Africa was like that before colonialism.

No it wasn't. Fact is that many of the feuding "ethnicities" didn't exist before colonialism, and came into existance as a result of social grouping by imperialists. Furthermore, prior to colonialism, there were no land boundaries to confine said "ethnicities" to, meaning that there were less land conflicts and disputes over cultural domination. Pre-colonial Africa was in no way, shape or form like present day Africa.

 

Pre-colonial Africa was culturally and economically backwards.

 

Much as people hate to say it, Western civilization has done more to help the world than any other civilization and contact with it does more good than harm.

 

If Africa was never colonized, it'd still be a hellhole.

 

The west just gave them some nice weaponry.

-=Mike

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

I don't bother arguing about racism with Mike.

 

Because you tend to be a blithering idiot.

 

And a quivering bowl of jello when it comes to ANYTHING in the same ballpark as a differing viewpoint.

 

But, hey, cowardice and idiocy works well for some people.

 

I mean, not for YOU, but for others...

 

Once he willingly admitted to being encouraged to not serve blacks at a restaurant he once worked, and than tried to justify it with blatantly racist remarks (although he'll probably shoot back with how they're not racist and how *I* am the ignorant one for insulting his fair and balanced beliefs), my insensitive ass tiptoed out of the room and let someone else who gave a shit handle it.

 

I simply stated WHY blacks get "poor service" in restaurants. Again, BLACK SERVERS don't want to wait on black tables. But I suppose they're racists too, huh?

 

What a moron.

 

I mean really dude, what the fuck were you thinking when you said all that? And you were being SERIOUS?

 

How 'bout you spend a few minutes a day in the real world?

 

It'll be an eye-opener.

-=Mike

...Your seldom-made appearances only serve to disprove the notion of "absence makes the heart grow fonder"

So much for civility.

 

Quivering bowl of jello? LAME. See, this is why I don't bother insulting people over the internet. It's useless and it's not like it's worthwhile. If you think about it, you don't hurt my feelings. So the only two options left are: a) You make yourself feel better or b) You try to impress people that you'll never even meet with your "wit". Hopefully you at least accomplished the former.

 

Coward and an idiot? Yeah, that fits me to a *T*

 

Wait, wait, wait. You talk about how black people are a "pain in the BUTT" and how they "tip poorly", yet *I* am the one who has to get out in the real world? My God that's some terrible logic.

 

"Listen son. You seem to NOT judge someone based on the colour of their skin. Get out in the real world and see how wrong you are." By the way, I'd eat a bullet if I refused to serve people of my own race based on...well, nothing.

 

"Your seldom-made appearances only serve to disprove the notion of 'absence makes the heart grow fonder' " This has no relevance, but dude, how much of a nerd are you?

 

Bottom line: You justified not serving blacks in restaurant. That's just...wrong.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Wait, wait, wait. You talk about how black people are a "pain in the BUTT" and how they "tip poorly", yet *I* am the one who has to get out in the real world? My God that's some terrible logic.

 

...

 

Bottom line: You justified not serving blacks in restaurant. That's just...wrong.

Cool, I guess I'm a racist, too.

 

When I worked customer/food service there was an disproportionate number of black customers that I wanted to hit in the face with a shovel.

 

I got a complaint lodged against me one time because I told a black woman with three kids running around like NEANDRATHALS and banging on a glass display if she could make them stop doing that.

 

There are a number of other instances that I can recall when dealing with blacks, but I'm too lazy to type them (there's the time I got another complaint because I told this black couple that our nacho machine was closed down for the evening -- another oldie but goldie)...

[Your Paragon of Virtue 0]

Wait, wait, wait. You talk about how black people are a "pain in the BUTT" and how they "tip poorly", yet *I* am the one who has to get out in the real world? My God that's some terrible logic.

 

...

 

Bottom line: You justified not serving blacks in restaurant. That's just...wrong.

Cool, I guess I'm a racist, too.

 

When I worked customer/food service there was an disproportionate number of black customers that I wanted to hit in the face with a shovel.

 

I got a complaint lodged against me one time because I told a black woman with three kids running around like NEANDRATHALS and banging on a glass display if she could make them stop doing that.

 

There are a number of other instances that I can recall when dealing with blacks, but I'm too lazy to type them (there's the time I got another complaint because I told this black couple that our nacho machine was closed down for the evening -- another oldie but goldie)...

Honest question: Did you ever think about not serving black people at all because of this? Just because of those customers whom you thought were stupid?

[Downhome 0]

I'm so fucking proud of so many of you in this thread. So much that I feel, so much that I want to say, but never have.

 

My hat is off to you guys, way to go.

[ant_7000 0]

On the Judge and the blackface issue is racist no doubt. LOL at people who think racism doesn't exist, I've been called nigger a couple of times in my face, i've been followed and searched after leaving stores before. I work at Bass Pro: Outdoor World which is a Hunting, Fishing, and Camping store and in one of public bathroom stalls theres kkk, a swatiska(sp?), and Niggers are filthy carved on wall, and some you think that racism is dead? LoL. To the waiters maybe your not giving good service thats why your not getting good tips thought of that. Me personally im a good tipper, but you wouldn't know that because if I showed up with my group friends you probably would make assumptions and give me half ass service and me giving you a shity tip.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Honest question: Did you ever think about not serving black people at all because of this? Just because of those customers whom you thought were stupid?

In my world I would execute stupid customers, but sadly this isn't my world.

 

Whenever I had to wait on some ghetto folk -- and having worked at places which were right next to city bus stops you KNEW when a public transportation vehicle recently dropped off a bunch of products from the under-class.

 

All you can really do when you have a moron in front of you at work is just zone out, let them do their thing, laugh at them when you're in the break room and thank your lucky stars you are not them.

 

And for the record, with all the talk of blacks being bad tippers/etc., I must say the WORST type of customer is vanilla white trash...

[EricMM 0]

ant I never said racism was totally dead, I said it was PRACTICALLY dead.

 

Of course the Krazy Kracka Kult will always exist. Neo-Nazi dorks will always exist.

 

My point was that they are a tiny tiny fraction of the population. You should not be negatively effected by your ethnicity if you present yourself well in places like the job market or everyday life. Now if you're dressed all ghetto, of course people are going to shy away. Guess what, if I dressed like white trash I'd be ignored too.

 

I've been called nigger a couple of times in my face,

 

are you sure it wasn't a black person saying it

 

I gotta agree with KKK white trash is fucking difficult to deal with.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

I gotta agree with KKK white trash is fucking difficult to deal with.

One of the WORST customer stories I have in my arsenal (and I know I've said it here before) is this white trash father that wiped my store's men's room with his daughter's DIRTY DIAPER.

 

THAT'S IT! I HATE ALL WHITE PEOPLE...

[Guest Brian]

If your black or Asian or Chicano and have ever driven into a suburb and know about the border patrols that'll pick you up with in minutes. Or if you live in the Ghetto and have seen cops perform a morning-star raid at apartments, going through the whole buildings, rounding up whatever they can find. And anyone here ever been stopped on the highway for a drug search and had a flashlight shined at your genitals. These are just a sampling of things I've seen that most of you guys will never have to go through.

[Guest Just J]

This is another case of crying racism when there is no reason too. Granted he's a judge so the choice he made was far from tasteful, but not racist.

 

Three years ago my wife was 8 months pregnant and went as a nun. She got more flack then I did. I went a Tiger Woods.