Guest Ray Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 Why is Hansen better than Austin? Better seller...more credible offense...better peak matches...more peak matches. In Tsuruta's case you talk more about a match storyline than the actual wrestler. It's one of his best matches...showing how good a story he could tell.
Guest The Winter Of My Discontent Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 Why is Hansen better than Austin? Better seller...more credible offense...better peak matches...more peak matches. In Tsuruta's case you talk more about a match storyline than the actual wrestler. It's one of his best matches...showing how good a story he could tell. How was Austin's selling less credible? I'm sure the millions Austin made as a top guy would prove he's had more peak matches...and they've been the best one's in North America to boot. Austin was a great seller too, I can't see how he's any worse.
Guest wildpegasus Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 Destroyer I'm not too familiar with. From what I've seen Jumbo rules all. Please, if you haven't seen him do so, You won't be dissapointed and you'll be doing yourself a big favor. As mentioned in other threads he's had match of the decade candidates for 3 generations. That's quite a feat. Watch the greatness. Develop an appreciation for it. Stan Hanson is one of the best sellers ever and his top matches in AJPW are comparable to anything. Watch, enjoy and cherish. If anyone out there is a wrestling fan even in the slightest you owe it to yourself to watch these matches. Treat yourself
Guest Ray Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 I'm sure the millions Austin made as a top guy would prove he's had more peak matches... Eh...no. Drawing money isn't related to having good wrestling matches. See Hogan. Austin had fewer peak matches, but that'd be due to injury/lack of push/lack of quality opponents. Austin was a great seller, but I can't recall a match where he sold as good or as much as Hansen did in some of his best work (although few of his matches required such levels of selling, due to the kinds of offense used in the different feds).
razazteca Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 What about the time Austin passed out to a submission hold?
Guest The Winter Of My Discontent Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 I'm sure the millions Austin made as a top guy would prove he's had more peak matches... Eh...no. Drawing money isn't related to having good wrestling matches. See Hogan. Austin had fewer peak matches, but that'd be due to injury/lack of push/lack of quality opponents. Austin was a great seller, but I can't recall a match where he sold as good or as much as Hansen did in some of his best work (although few of his matches required such levels of selling, due to the kinds of offense used in the different feds). I said drawing money to prove he has been in many big time matches along with stealing the show in most of them. I'd say Austin bad a great match at SS 96 where he sold exceptionally well, had a wide moveset, and told an exceptionally great story.
Guest wildpegasus Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 [ The Destroyer was a king of matwork. An expert at building one hold from the previous, giving you the impression that he's outsmarting his opponent. Not just slapping on headlocks to kill time. And the holds look so believable, unlike a certain wrestler's standing anklelock. The anklelock's credable enough to me. I've seen Funaki make Bas Rutten tap to it in about 1 second in Pancrase although he did have it cinched in more! Funaki was sitting on 1 leg while twisting the other one. ANgle on the other hand usually stands up allowing for counters to make his matches more exciting. Perhaps it's out of cockiness or in kayfabe world it's easier to get the anklelock standing up rather than doing the laying anklelock (which he needs to wear his opponents down more for) or the version Funaki used.
Guest Ray Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 What about the time Austin passed out to a submission hold? Wrestlemania 13? Yep. One of the greatest displays of superb facial expressions I've ever seen. I said drawing money to prove he has been in many big time matches along with stealing the show in most of them. I'd say Austin bad a great match at SS 96 where he sold exceptionally well, had a wide moveset, and told an exceptionally great story. I'm not saying Austin was bad, you know. In fact I worship the ground he walks on. Does Austin's best surpass Hansen-Kobashi 7/93? I say no.
Guest Ray Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 (edited) [ The Destroyer was a king of matwork. An expert at building one hold from the previous, giving you the impression that he's outsmarting his opponent. Not just slapping on headlocks to kill time. And the holds look so believable, unlike a certain wrestler's standing anklelock. The anklelock's credable enough to me. I've seen Funaki make Bas Rutten tap to it in about 1 second in Pancrase although he did have it cinched in more! Funaki was sitting on 1 leg while twisting the other one. ANgle on the other hand usually stands up allowing for counters to make his matches more exciting. Perhaps it's out of cockiness or in kayfabe world it's easier to get the anklelock standing up rather than doing the laying anklelock (which he needs to wear his opponents down more for) or the version Funaki used. Allowing for counters is the problem. It looks like his opponent could counter it easily. The anklelock where he's on his knees, leaning over his opponent's back looked much better. Edited November 14, 2003 by Ray
razazteca Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 What about the time Austin passed out to a submission hold? Wrestlemania 13? Yep. One of the greatest displays of superb facial expressions I've ever seen.
razazteca Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 What about the match vs Rock at WM 17, the broken neck one vs Owen, vs Dude Love?
Guest Ray Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 What about the match vs Rock at WM 17, the broken neck one vs Owen, vs Dude Love? Are you asking me if those are good? If so, yes. Mania 17 is a top 5 WWF/E match for me.
razazteca Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 Just wondering in your opinion if those matches had good storytelling.
Guest Ray Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 Just wondering in your opinion if those matches had good storytelling. Oh yes, especially WM17. Austin perfectly plays the role of an utterly desperate man. Cheating at every chance he gets, playing off his matches with Bret, "pulling out every move he's ever known" to beat Rock. The look on his face when Rock kicks out of the stunner is GOLD. One of the best examples of deep storytelling I've ever seen in a WWF ring.
Austin3164life Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 I think you guys fail to realize that Ray is probably as big an Austin mark as anyone is around here (like I am). All he's saying is that he thinks that there's someone better than Austin from the USA. Ray will disagree, but the reason I put Austin above guys like Race, Thesz, Hansen, and Flair is because not only could Austin work a ****+ match on any given day (with a good enough opponent), but he also drew boatloads of cash, and his persona in the ring (which many overlook to his backstage and interview antics) changed the way heels and faces are perceived.
IWD Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 Note that below I have excluded wrestlers not from the US, e.g.: Dynamite Kid, Bret & Own Hart, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, Andre The Giant, etc. I also base it mostly on how much success they had in the business - title reigns, drawing ability, etc. All time? I'd go... 1. Ric Flair 2. Hulk Hogan 3. Lou Thesz 4. Bruno Sammartino 5. Verne Gagne 6. Harley Race 7. Bob Backlund 8. Jerry Lawler 9. Steve Austin 10. Vader In terms of those who still regularly wrestle... 1. Ric Flair 2. Vader 3. Shawn Michaels 4. Triple H 5. Jeff Jarrett 6. Terry Funk 7. The Undertaker 8. Eddie Guerrero 9. Scott Steiner 10. Booker T Top 25 all-time puro, for anyone who's interested, based on the same criteria... 1. Mitsuharu Misawa/ Tiger Mask II 2. Rikidozan 3. Keiji Mutoh/ Great Muta 4. Shinya Hashimoto 5. Jushin Thunder Liger 6. Tatsumi Fujinami 7. Kenta Kobashi 8. Masanobu Fuchi 9. Toshiaki Kawada 10. Genichiro Tenryu 11. Kintaro Ohki 12. Kensuke Sasaki/ Power Warrior 13. Riki Choshu 14. Jun Akiyama 15. Yuji Nagata 16. Jumbo Tsuruta 17. Yoshinari Ogawa 18. Masahiro Chono 19. Akira Taue 20. Antonio Inoki 21. Koji Kanemoto/ Tiger Mask III 22. Hiroyoshi Tenzan 23. Shohei Giant Baba 24. Shinjiro Ohtani 25. Satoshi Kojima OK.
bob_barron Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 OK what? My top 10 in no order- Austin Flair Hogan Rock Sting Foley Funk Sammartino Steamboat Savage
Guest Ray Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 7. Kenta Kobashi 9. Toshiaki Kawada Kenta over Tosh?! *gamengiris you to death* Ray will disagree, but the reason I put Austin above guys like Race, Thesz, Hansen, and Flair is because not only could Austin work a ****+ match on any given day (with a good enough opponent), but he also drew boatloads of cash, and his persona in the ring (which many overlook to his backstage and interview antics) changed the way heels and faces are perceived. You make a good case for Austin. I haven't seen enough Thesz to rate him. Flair had more prime years, but as I said, there were reasons Austin didn't. Injury, lack of push, lack of good opponents (Hansen had Kawada, Misawa, Kobashi, etc...)
IWD Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 7. Kenta Kobashi 9. Toshiaki Kawada Kenta over Tosh?! *gamengiris you to death* I listed my criteria - based on that, I think it's fair. OK.
Guest BionicRedneck Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 Well, Tosh was a better worker, at least equally as popular and a bigger star.
Coffin Surfer Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 You make a good case for Austin. I haven't seen enough Thesz to rate him. Flair had more prime years, but as I said, there were reasons Austin didn't. Injury, lack of push, lack of good opponents (Hansen had Kawada, Misawa, Kobashi, etc...) Hansen also had excellent matches with Andre the Giant, Hulk Hogan, and 80s broken down Baba. Obviously not as great as Kobashi, Misawa, and Kawada singles matches, but given the time period, those matches were about as good as Hansen could get out of em.
Guest ligerbomb03 Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 You rated Mutoh higher than Liger?
Guest NCJ Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 1. Rock 1A. Austin 3. Flair 4. Hogan 5. Hansen 6. Vader 7. Sammartino 8. Foley 9. Sting 10. HBK Based on all around skill: Mic work, Ring work, Drawing Power, Overness
Austin3164life Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 You make a good case for Austin. I haven't seen enough Thesz to rate him. Flair had more prime years, but as I said, there were reasons Austin didn't. Injury, lack of push, lack of good opponents (Hansen had Kawada, Misawa, Kobashi, etc...) To be honest, I have not seen much of Stan Hansen's work, but I have read about how he was a very intelligent wrestler, in terms of controlling the pace. I agree that Austin's injuries and lack of opponents (how many times can you wrestle The Rock and Undertaker?) might cause some to place him a bit lower. I think that because he basically worked his best year's injured, it shows how great he truly was, to put out ****+ matches when he wasn't even at his best physically. If I were to see at least 3-4 matches of Hansen, maybe it might change my opinion. But like BPS21 said a while ago, everyone else falls behind Austin somewhere in this list.
Toshiaki Koala Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 You just wait till the debut of Fertig...he'll blow them all away Sorry, I died laughing when I saw this.
Slingshot Suplex Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 well,and Eddie is American..... He was born in Juarez Mexico but i know that it can be confusing since in Mexico he played a rich cocky american and in U.S he plays a wet back mexican....am i the only one who sees the irony? I knew the family was Mexican but I thought I had read he was legit born in Texas. Oh well....
Guest The Midnight Rocking Warrior Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 In my opinion ( and in no particular order) 1. Hogan Draw as a face, draw as a heel and in both wrestling hall of fames 2. Flair- Greatest worker of all time 3. Steve Austin- Was to the 90's what Hogan was to the 80's 4. Bret Hart- Greatest Canadian wrestler ever. 5. Terry Funk- Sue me, the man was a great hardcore, technical ( In the 70's) and tag wrestler 6. Buddy Rogers- Without him, there would be no Flair 7. Gorgeous George- Wrestling wouldn't be what it is today without him 8. Jack Brisco- I had to include him 9. Ricky Steamboat- Wrestling's greatest Iron man 10. Shawn Michaels- I'm gonna get killed for this one
Guest BionicRedneck Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 10. Shawn Michaels- I'm gonna get killed for this one Probably, but you have just as much reason to worry about #2.
Tim Cooke Posted November 14, 2003 Report Posted November 14, 2003 Top 10 US: Stan Hanson Vader Ric Flair Barry Windham Hulk Hogan Midnight Express (Cornette/Eaton/Condrey/Lane) Tommy Rogers Harley Race Terry Funk Steve Austin
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