Cherry Blossom Viscount 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Is it the "Heel Lock" or "Heel Look." I've heard it called both. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Just call me Dan 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 How would it be the "Heel Look"? It's a variant of the ankle lock, a submission hold. I think the world look is just a typo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJMc 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 To me the mystique was gone when HHH (yes, that's who fucking did it) stopped the matches from ending via ref's decision. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cherry Blossom Viscount 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 It sounds better to me for some reason. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cherry Blossom Viscount 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 To me the mystique was gone when HHH (yes, that's who fucking did it) stopped the matches from ending via ref's decision. He did it because it was kind of stupid. Technically, if Brock was TKO'ing people,why not Show who actually looks like he could legit do it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob_barron 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Angle was down 5-2 with 18 minutes left so it's not like Brock holding on was a major accomplishment. And without the low blows and other dirty stuff- the announcers sold it as Brock wouldn't have won. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lil' Bitch 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Well, he did give Angle his first in the match by smashing his head with a chair and getting DQ'ed for it. I wouldn't have called that clean. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Just call me Dan 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 I'd say the fact that Brock wnet up 5-2 to begin with was big. He made Angle tap QUICKLY to his own finisher, F5ed him for a clean win, DDT'd him for a clean win, etc. angle could have easily done the same thing, and the fact that Cole was too busy pulling a JR (everything Face's do is awesome, if a heel does it he i a bastard) took away from Tazz pointing out that it was genius for Brock to take an early advantage like that. He never cheated to prevent angle from getting a win, he just kicked the shit out of him so he ran out of time. To me, harping on the chairshot is wrong. In WWE style main event (PPV caliber) there are almost always chairshots at somepoint in the match. If you took away wins from people as not being clean because they used a chair at some point in the match, there would be a lot less "clean" wins by your standards. He GAVE Angle a fall as a sacrifice to him getting a leg up on the match. That is a thinking man's victory. If Angle would have been able to get ahead, he could have done the same to ensure Brock didn't make a big comeback. Lesnar didn't allow it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hogan Made Wrestling 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 I definitely think it was a mistake making the 4 Horsemen of the Abrockalypse all bigger than him. Now he looks like he's hiding from Angle behind a wall of monsters. Brock shouldn't be booked like Flair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Korgath Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Brock shouldn't talk. Every time he opens his damn mouth I change the channel. He doesn't have the voice of a monster, or a psycho. Hell, he doesn't even have the voice of a legit challenger. I think the second Brock lost his mouthpiece (Heyman) and decided to go au natural, that was when he lost most of his mystique. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Kamui Report post Posted November 14, 2003 People lose unless they get the Austin/HHH superman treatment and have the belt for most of a year or two. Isn't it interesting that two of the WWE's strongest periods came during these so-called "superman periods" (Austin in '98 and Hunter in late '99-early '00, besides the brief Vince thing). Not to mention Goldberg in WCW '98. The way you get people interested isn't by having them trade wins non-stop! And it isn't by having people who've already been on top do a SECOND or THIRD superman run, either. That's boring (and why the Trips thing didn't do anything for business). Brock needed to stay on the superman run, not go to a No Contest with the Undertaker then job to the fucking Big Show. And I'm saying right now, the only way you're ever gonna get someone over as a major superstar and turn business around is if you take someone new to the ME scene and PUT THEM OVER EVERYONE. Playing fuck-around with them is just going to make them damaged goods like the rest of the current roster and result in business staying the same. Considering Brock's already teetering dangerously close on the line of "Just another wrestler", they gotta start putting him over everyone strongly if they want to save his chance at actually becoming the "Next Big Thing". If they don't want to do that, then there's no use keeping the WWE Title on him, because if you just want to trade wins with people then there's a lot of guys with more talent on the mic and/or the ring who can do it (Angle, Benoit, Eddie, etc.). -Duo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Austin3164life 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Two things take away from Brock's "mystique": -Falling on his face at WM XIX -HORRIBLE booking Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Highland 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Brock gets shit on too much for that botched SSP, especially when nearly everyone was cringing everytime Angle would land on his neck. If it was Angle that fucked up the move people would be like: "Oh my god he risked his life to pull off that move, what a bad ass!" Brock does it, fucks up a move he was known for doing in OVW, and all I hear is he took away from the match, etc. As far I see, he risked his career, if not his life, for that match. Cut him some slack. However, Brock HAS lost some of his mystique, and the way to get it back is to return to his roots: When he debuted he was a monster, doing random run ins and just destroying whoever he felt like. That's the Brock that needs to come back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haVoc 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 You know, it's funny someone started a thread about this, because I was thinking the same thing about Kurt Angle last night. When he came out first last night, I wasn't like "YES KURT ANGLE!" It was" Hey, Kurt gets to start the show." Angle being a face has lost something. I always look forward to his matches, but the rest of it bores me. When he comes out to the ring now to do a promo I know it's going to be boring. It's just not the heelish Angle that made me love the guy. Then again, there isn't really anyone at the moment besides Cena who stands out among the rest as something "special and exciting." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jester 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 The way you get people interested isn't by having them trade wins non-stop! And it isn't by having people who've already been on top do a SECOND or THIRD superman run, either. That's boring (and why the Trips thing didn't do anything for business). Brock needed to stay on the superman run, not go to a No Contest with the Undertaker then job to the fucking Big Show. And I'm saying right now, the only way you're ever gonna get someone over as a major superstar and turn business around is if you take someone new to the ME scene and PUT THEM OVER EVERYONE. Exactly. Imagine if this had happened instead: Undertaker jobs three straight PPVs to Brock, including a final heavy gimmick blowoff match, like HIAC. Brock would have huge heat, because he dominated a guy that hardly ever gets beat. That's what Foley did for HHH. But nah, in all probability they're going to spend that enormous rub Taker has to give on that hot up and comer Vince McMahon, and just to get Stephanie back on TV... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJMc 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 To me the mystique was gone when HHH (yes, that's who fucking did it) stopped the matches from ending via ref's decision. He did it because it was kind of stupid. Technically, if Brock was TKO'ing people,why not Show who actually looks like he could legit do it. I can understand that, but if Show or anyone else would have been better suited doing it, why weren't they already? That's the whole point to me. Having someone who is above everyone else and not like them in any way, even if there still are bigger guys than them. I'm not arguing with you, I'm just telling it like I see it. This is one of the only things that REALLY pisses me off about HHH, because honestly, I like him to a certain degree. But the shit he pulls sometimes....and they FUCKING LISTEN TO HIM, STILL. Deep breath.... -JM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slayer 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Ironman was pretty clean. The ironman wasn't clean at all. The whole story of the match was Brock cheating like mad to win the title A heel that cheats? What is this world coming to? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest One Trick Pony Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Why waste all this on someone like Brock though? He was in the WM main event at his first Wrestlemania and it drew like crap. They put him over everyone and it took 8 months for him to get over. He botched a huge move at WM in aforementioned main event. The reason no people give him slack for it is because he was hyped up as having the "best SSP in wrestling", he was abhorred for the undeserving push he was getting, and because it was a botch that was way too obvious. People wouldn't care if it wasn't so obvious. I give him the same crap I give to Shango for ruining the WM8 finish. The same crap I gave to Pac, Gangrel, and Long for messing up the RR 99 finish. It's not preferential hate. I'd say it's a travesty that they're wasting him but I see nothing that will be of use now or even if built up. He hasn't drawn ratings or buyrates. People have called his matches with Angle average when they were supposed to be the matches that revolutionized wrestling again. All that effort spent on Brock should have been put to use on any other big man. Train doesn't have a habit of blowing spots and the one he did, he knew the right thing to do after to ensure Benoit wouldn't get injured period or more. They could have given this big push to Goldberg even because Goldberg's proven he can draw with a monster push like that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted November 14, 2003 The TKO thing really wasn't working the way they were doing it where Brock would F5 someone and the referee was already ringing the bell. Lesnar just didn't work that the way they really could have... I think the best time I saw that used was with The Skyscrapers in the NWA where they would powerbomb the hell out of jobbers until everyone in the arena was in agreement that the match should have been stopped. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest One Trick Pony Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Mark Goodhart what are your thoughts on the mystique? I love your columns. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Someone actually reads my columns? Huh. Anyway, Brock is on a bit of a downturn now since he's booked into situations where he's supposed to make other people look good and he doesn't have the experience to do that quite yet. When you send Brock out and tell him to slug it out with huge monsters or kill a cruiserweight dead, he's perfect. But stick him in an 'even steven' situation where he is neither getting dominated or dominating and Brock seems to get a little lost in translation. If I was putting together a match with Brock, I'd set up much longer heat segments than he has right now and allow him to work to his strengths of both taking and delivering mammoth bumps. So basically the booking is weakening Brock since they aren't using him as a dragon slayer or as a dragon... he's on the same level as Angle, Benoit and Taker and thats destroying his aura. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest One Trick Pony Report post Posted November 14, 2003 While I still think he's a waste, I have to concur with what you think. That's a great analogy using the dragons. P.S. I used to read TSM before I started going on the forums and I always used to like reading yours. I got referred here by a friend and your columns and Brandon Truitt's shoot interviews drew me in and keep me coming. I don't care much for the Diatribe or the pop culture stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest NCJ Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Alot of marks still think Lesnar is the shit, but he is becoming a regular wrestler due to the insipid booking. I do agree that a heel should cheat sometimes, but a monster heel shouldn't have to cheat everytime. Brock should have been booked the way Vader was booked in WCW before Hogan and the rematch with Flair. A killing machine with no remorse. A man who is almost a force of nature. You can have him lose, but you can't have him getting his ass handed to him and he has to cheat out of desperation to win. During HHH's monster run he went over Foley cleanly, he went over Big Show cleanly. He didn't cheat to save himself he cheated because he liked to. And whether anyone belives it or not the way the announcers call a match does have alot to do with percieved mystique. J.R. constantly put HHH over as the best in the game throughout his run. On the other hand during Jericho's run he continually treated Jericho like a joke and not a guy worthy of being in the ring with Austin and Rock. Brock shouldn't go over everyone he can lose. However he should not have tapped out so soon. That should only be used to put a mid carder over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Ironman was pretty clean. Not only that, but he GAVE AWAY THE FIRST FALL. Oh and UT's job at No Mercy 2002 was the most significant one Brock got to date. Andf the "mutual respect bullshit" is what put him over as a face. One more thing, Brock is very, very, good in the ring. His moves are great, he sells well, he's quick, and he has a good amatuer background. He's everything you could want. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EdwardKnoxII 0 Report post Posted November 14, 2003 Why waste all this on someone like Brock though? He was in the WM main event at his first Wrestlemania and it drew like crap. I wouldn't call his WM match the main event seeing as how most of the hype with to Vince/Hogan and Brock/Angle seemed more like an afterthought. That and the fact that Brock, the face, had the upper hand for most of the fued going in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Dids Report post Posted November 15, 2003 I think the whole Survivor Series booking hurts him. If he'd been book as the leader of a more established heel team (Him, Train, Show, WGTT or something like that) he looks powerful. Right now he looks like the small guy who needed to bring in muscle to help him out. I know that the first thing I noticed about Brock was his size, and his nasty look. He lost that as part of his face turn and once he turned heel again (which wasn't done well at all) the goofy ass promos. In terms of his cheating, a monster heel shouldn't need to cheat to win. When's the last time Show had a cheap win? He wins because he's huge- and any victory over him is an upset. Brock should have been booked the same way. The benefit is that the two top faces have super over submissions finishers- so it isn't like they have to out power Brock, just out smart him. There's a lot of ways that Brock could have been booked and still look a lot stronger. Would have been a good idea two- because with Eddie and Angle (and now Cena) both playing face roles- SD is just plain out of ME heels. I think if you look back- turning Angle face is going to look like a bad idea. Even if the crowd popped for his return- he could have fixed that pretty damn quick once he got on the mic. I don't think face Angle is bad- just that he's a lot more valuable as a heel. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
