Schools named after Confederates debated

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...erate_schools_3

 

Educators Debate Efforts to Rename Schools

 

By STEVE SZKOTAK, Associated Press Writer

 

HAMPTON, Va. - At Jefferson Davis Middle School, a civil war of words is being waged over a petition drive to erase the name of the slave-owning Confederate president from the school.

 

Opinion is mixed, and it's not necessarily along racial lines.

 

"If it had been up to Robert E. Lee, these kids wouldn't be going to school as they are today," said civil rights leader Julian Bond, now a history professor at the University of Virginia. "They can't help but wonder about honoring a man who wanted to keep them in servitude."

 

That argument isn't accepted universally among Southern black educators, including the school superintendent in Petersburg, where about 80 percent of the 36,000 residents are black. Three schools carry the names of Confederates.

 

"It's not the name on the outside of the building that negatively affects the attitudes of the students inside," Superintendent Lloyd Hamlin said. "If the attitudes outside of the building are acceptable, then the name is immaterial."

 

It is difficult to say how many public schools in the 11 former Confederate states are named for Civil War leaders from the South. Among the more notable names, the National Center for Education Statistics lists 19 Robert E. Lees, nine Stonewall Jacksons and five Davises. J.E.B. Stuart, Turner Ashby, George Edward Pickett each have at least one school bearing their name.

 

For some, these men who defended a system that allowed slavery should not be memorialized on public schools where thousands of black children are educated.

 

The symbols and the names of the Confederacy remain powerful reminders of the South's history of slavery and the war to end it. States, communities and institutions continue to debate what is a proper display of that heritage.

 

Students in South Carolina have been punished for wearing Confederate flag T-shirts to school. The town of Clarksdale, Miss., permanently lowered the state flag — which has a Confederate emblem in one corner — to recognize "the pain and suffering it has symbolized for many years." And the Richmond-area Boy Scouts dropped Lee's name from its council this year.

 

In the most sweeping change, the Orleans Parish School Board in Louisiana gave new names to schools once named for historical figures who owned slaves. George Washington Elementary School was renamed for Dr. Charles Richard Drew, a black surgeon who organized blood banks during World War II.

 

In Gadsden, Ala., however, officials have resisted efforts to rename a middle school named for Nathan Bedford Forrest, an early backer of the Ku Klux Klan. And a school board in Kentucky adopted a new dress code that eliminates bans on provocative symbols including the Confederate flag.

 

The naming of schools after Confederate figures is particularly rich with symbolism because of the South's slow move to integrate. Many schools were named after the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites) ruled segregated schools unconstitutional in 1954 but before the departure of whites left many inner city schools majority black.

 

"Now whites are complaining that they are changing the name of Stonewall Jackson High School," says Fitzhugh Brundage, a University of North Carolina history professor who is writing a book on "black and white memory from the Civil War."

 

While far from always the case, the naming of some public schools after Confederate generals was a parting shot to blacks emerging from segregated schools.

 

"It was an attempt to blend the past with the present but holding onto a romanticized past," Jennings Wagoner, a U.Va. scholar on the history of education, said of the practice of naming schools after Lee, Jackson and others. "It was also a time of extreme racism."

 

Erenestine Harrison, who launched the petition drive to rename Jefferson Davis Middle School, attended Hampton's segregated public schools. She moved north in 1967 and was struck by the school names upon her return seven years ago to Hampton, a city at the mouth of Chesapeake Bay. Educated as a psychologist, she has worked in the city schools as a substitute teacher.

 

"If I were a kid, especially a teenager, I would be ashamed to tell a friend that I went to Jefferson Davis," said Harrison, 55. "Basically, those guys fought for slavery."

 

But Henry Kidd, former Virginia commander of the Sons of Confederate Veterans (news - web sites), sees efforts by Harrison and others as a "chipping away, piece by piece, at our history."

[BX 0]

...

 

For fuck's sake..

[Guest JMA]

Was Robert E. Lee actually against slavery? Or is that just a myth?

[NoCalMike 0]

In Gadsden, Ala., however, officials have resisted efforts to rename a middle school named for Nathan Bedford Forrest, an early backer of the Ku Klux Klan.

My fucking gawd.......

[Firestarter 0]

Was Robert E. Lee actually against slavery? Or is that just a myth?

No, it isn't a myth.

 

"There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil."

- General Robert Lee, 12/27/1856

 

As I've noted before in this thread, General Lee owned no slaves himself, and when his wife inherited her father's plantation he immediately freed every slave who worked on it.

[Vern Gagne 0]

In Gadsden, Ala., however, officials have resisted efforts to rename a middle school named for Nathan Bedford Forrest, an early backer of the Ku Klux Klan.

My fucking gawd.......

Forest actually left the KKK, when it turned into a violent organization. That was never the intention when it was formed. At least everything i've read said that.

 

Know. I can't say for certain, but in the case of many Generals along with soldiers, and citizens of the confederacy. Slavery had nothing to do with the war. Most couldn't afford slaves, and it was actually more about state's rights than anything. Sadly, the confederacy itself was fighting to retain slavery, which is why I think their side was so wrong.

[Guest JMA]

In Gadsden, Ala., however, officials have resisted efforts to rename a middle school named for Nathan Bedford Forrest, an early backer of the Ku Klux Klan.

My fucking gawd.......

Ugh. No wonder people don't like my homestate...

[teke184 0]

*went to a college in Forrest county that used to have Nathan Bedford Forrest as a mascot as late as the 1970s.*

[Guest SP-1]

I can't say how much I loathe the day when American history is completely re-written so as not to offend a single soul alive.

 

The textbook will have one page. And it will be blank. Students will be instructed to ignore everything and construct a history that makes them feel special.

[Guest JMA]

I can't say how much I loathe the day when American history is completely re-written so as not to offend a single soul alive.

 

The textbook will have one page. And it will be blank. Students will be instructed to ignore everything and construct a history that makes them feel special.

 

Seriously, that was funny.

[Hogan Made Wrestling 0]

There's a difference between recognizing history and glorifying it.

 

Personally I don't see the general fascination with naming schools after old political and military leaders. Although I suppose it could be worse, they could have their names sold out to corporations.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I can't say how much I loathe the day when American history is completely re-written so as not to offend a single soul alive.

 

The textbook will have one page. And it will be blank. Students will be instructed to ignore everything and construct a history that makes them feel special.

I would laugh at that if it wasn't true.

[Vyce 0]

"If it had been up to Robert E. Lee, these kids wouldn't be going to school as they are today," said civil rights leader Julian Bond, now a history professor at the University of Virginia. "They can't help but wonder about honoring a man who wanted to keep them in servitude."

 

Totally inaccurate. Lee was personally opposed to slavery, and was wise enough to understand that the practice of slavery itself would die out in a relative period of time as it was an economic system that had absolutely no future in the increasingly modernized world. He fought for the Confederacy purely out of loyalty to his home state.

 

I'm not down with the modern trend to treat Lee like the 19th century's version of UBL. He was arguably one of the finest military minds that this country has EVER produced, or ever will.

[Justice 0]

I agree with Vyce completely, though I am more a fan of James Longstreet, Lee's right-hand man. Brilliant mind as well, but oft-overlooked because he was always in either Jackson's or Lee's shadow.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

Snicker. I find it amusing that I've had lunch with both the guys quoted in the article.

 

I took Julian Bond's UVA class last spring - he teaches the History of the Civil Rights Movement. Good class, and having been such a big part of the civil rights movement in the 60's he obviously knows quite a pile about that, but anyone who's had a conversation with him will be quick to tell you that he's fairly deluded when it comes to interpreting American history before the 20th century. His read on Robert E. Lee is *somewhat* correct in the most literal sense that, yes, had the side he fought for won, slavery may have taken a much longer time to dissipate. Bond doesn't see the value of Lee's actual actions on the smaller scale, taking the position that were he truly against slavery to a wide scale, he should have either not fought in the war or, more preferably, aligned himself with the Union. It's tricky to argue with him about that, because really he is, at this point, just a nice old man who likes barbershop quartets.

[2GOLD 0]

As someone who greatly followed the Civil War in high school, VA was probably the oddest state in the fight since most of the soldiers fighting for the South from VA had already freed their slaves many many years before or never owned them.

 

Granted, not all from VA were against slavery but most of them were just fighting in the name of the South and VA, not slavery. Hell, most of them could have given a damn one way or another.

 

And it pisses me off that Lee is now forever branded a racist because he was the general for the South just because he loved his state.

 

Now Jefferson Davis....that's a different story.

[Guest BDC]

I think SP is completely right. Let's just ignore all our history.

 

That way we can do it ALL OVER AGAIN.

[Guest SP-1]

Honestly, if I had the power to ignore history and remake it to my whim, I'd probably concentrate on having a wife by now.

 

Which would be awesome.

[2GOLD 0]

I think SP is completely right. Let's just ignore all our history.

 

That way we can do it ALL OVER AGAIN.

 

YES!

WORLD WAR I, here we come!

 

I can't believe how PC the world is becoming, no wonder murder is up. You can only read about so much stupidity and bs before you snap and shoot up a bus.

[Guest BDC]

Here's what I don't get. People want stuff taken out of history because it's offensive. They want stuff like slavery stricken from the record so that there's not discrimination or something. That stuff is a reminder of what not to do.

 

History is stuff that happened in the past. It wasn't pretty, it wasn't nice, it wasn't offensive, but by hell, it happened. It's like the retards that tried to deface the Enola Gay: okay, you didn't like what happened, but defacing a piece of history isn't going to change that.

 

...must stop now.... before tempted to shoot bus...

[Guest SP-1]

Here's a paradox. If things are ever actually stricken from history, can the advocates that use it as a lunch pad continue to do so or are they robbing themselves of their own argument?

 

Discuss amongst yourselves.

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

I'm not down with the modern trend to treat Lee like the 19th century's version of UBL. He was arguably one of the finest military minds that this country has EVER produced, or ever will.

Me to. Besides how can you hate a man that two Duke boys in Harzard Co. named their Dodge Charger after.

[Guest JMA]

I'm not down with the modern trend to treat Lee like the 19th century's version of UBL.  He was arguably one of the finest military minds that this country has EVER produced, or ever will.

Me to. Besides how can you hate a man that two Duke boys in Harzard Co. named their Dodge Charger after.

"Just a good ol' boy..."

[Guest Olympic Slam]

It bugs me that EVERY time there's a Civil War related issue, the whole thing is dimishied to simply that of an issue of slavery. The Civil War came about because of some serious political and philosophical stuff. Naming this school after Davis, Lee or any other Confederate hero bothers me not so much of what they stood for, but because they commited treason against the United States. However, the country has changed so much since the 1860's that Davis' act of treason seems less important today. For that matter, the country has changed so much and the South has conformed to Northern standards that I see little reason to glorify Davis today. I dunno.....

Edited December 29, 2003 by Olympic Slam

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Its difficult just to go out and label it treason. You have to remember that when the country was founded, it was a collection of states. Alot of people felt it was not a permanant bond. NYC discussed succession a few times as well.

 

As for the confederates and slavery, slavery was just about gone by 1865. Towards the conclusion of the war, the South discussed ending slavery in order to boost their armed ranks, and they looked headed in that direction.

 

I'm not down with the modern trend to treat Lee like the 19th century's version of UBL. He was arguably one of the finest military minds that this country has EVER produced, or ever will.

 

If anything, Nathan Bedford Forrest was the 19th century Osama.

[Guest BDC]

If anything, Nathan Bedford Forrest was the 19th century Osama.

Oh great, here we go again. Forrest got OUT of the KKK within its first year. When he saw it becoming a terrorist organization he quit. So guess what? UBL remains unmatched as human scum.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Oh great, here we go again.  Forrest got OUT of the KKK within its first year.  When he saw it becoming a terrorist organization he quit.  So guess what?  UBL remains unmatched as human scum.

This is like the Thurmond apologists who said all his old behavior was okay because he stopped flaunting his opinion when it stopped being popular.

 

Whether it was originally violent or not, the ideology of the KKK is a *bad thing*. If I told you that I was going to make an organization that would be "like the KKK, but without all the violence" would you like me? No!

[Guest BDC]

Oh great, here we go again.  Forrest got OUT of the KKK within its first year.  When he saw it becoming a terrorist organization he quit.  So guess what?  UBL remains unmatched as human scum.

This is like the Thurmond apologists who said all his old behavior was okay because he stopped flaunting his opinion when it stopped being popular.

 

Whether it was originally violent or not, the ideology of the KKK is a *bad thing*. If I told you that I was going to make an organization that would be "like the KKK, but without all the violence" would you like me? No!

Okay, Jobber, let me clarify what I was saying: Forrest is not equal to UBL. The ideology? Bad. He was clinging to an old code that was fading away. But he's no UBL.

[AboveAverage484 0]

If anything, Nathan Bedford Forrest was the 19th century Osama.

 

If you don't know what you're talking about, then please, shut up.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Okay, Jobber, let me clarify what I was saying: Forrest is not equal to UBL. The ideology? Bad. He was clinging to an old code that was fading away. But he's no UBL.

Okay, that's fair.