Downhome 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 I just want to say one thing, and one thing only... ...tonights HHH vs. HBK match, it's the exact reason why I'm still, and forever will be, a Pro. Wrestling fan. That is all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dubq 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Ok yes it was a good match and maybe ***1/2. But how the fuck does Keith see ****3/4? Andh is reasoning is retarted. "Crazy good match in every aspect with insane crowd heat and selling from Shawn, dragged down a bit by the senseless ref bumps. ****3/4" Bah he gets worse by the minute. ...and you care because? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tawren 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 I'm rewqatching this right now on TSN, it's WAY better than I thought on the original airing. I still wouldn't call it ***+, but definitely a ***1/2-***3/4 for me right now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Question: What will Dames rate it? Usually he's harasher on ratings than SK, and for the love of God I can't remember many matches in TNA he's given *** or better so I'll say ***1/2. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tawren 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Question: What will Dames rate it? Usually he's harasher on ratings than SK, and for the love of God I can't remember many matches in TNA he's given *** or better so I'll say ***1/2. Dames went insane for the Super X Cup. I know he gave Sabin/Guerrera ****1/2, and I know he gave Hart/Guerrera ****+... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Well like Tawren I rewatched on TSN(taped it too). And I say ***3/4. And, most likely, the Raw match of the year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kurt Angle Mark 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 I just saw the match here in L.A. and for Scott Keith to give this match the same rating he gave Benoit/Angle from RR is sheer lunacy. The emotion of the match and the crowd heat deserve ****+, but not the match itself. I saw Angle/Benoit a few weeks ago for the first time since January and I thought it was the best WWE match I have ever seen. It was better than I originally remember it being, which usually never happens when you see a match again. So to say that HHH/HBK was just as good is crazy talk. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Brian Report post Posted December 30, 2003 I got a lot of deja vu in terms of the pacing and just general work in the match. I still don't get that feeling of pure hatred or the backstory of friendship and betrayal in these matches, nor do I feel they've gotten anything out of fighting against each other off and on for the last year and a half. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Kid 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 I just re-watched and taped it on TSN...I marked out again...you'd think I'd learn. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LJSexay 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Just saw it here in LA and yeah, definitely MOTY for Raw, and **** straight up. Considering the people in it, the heat, the emotion.. anything else would seriously be underscoring the match. *watches again* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Funny in the midst of a great match... Everyone seems to neglect that HHH did a VERY blatant Blade Job...He even took the blade out RIGHT on Camera (as he took off the pad) and visably cut himself as he fell back... Usually you guys catch this and complain. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lil' Bitch 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 I didn't even notice HHH cut himself. I must have been distracted by his awful, frizzy hair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Funny in the midst of a great match... Everyone seems to neglect that HHH did a VERY blatant Blade Job...He even took the blade out RIGHT on Camera (as he took off the pad) and visably cut himself as he fell back... Usually you guys catch this and complain. I rewatched the match on the repeat and still didn't notice it. Meh more credit to the match that I was so into it I missed that. Although I saw him take the blade out(thought he was getting brass knux at first) but didn't think much of it for some reason. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Choken One Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Correct me if I am wrong but he cut himself twice because I thought saw him cut once and shawn made a cover or something and then he cut again...either that or he was rubbing the blood... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Art Sandusky 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 I thought those were brass knuckles or something too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted December 30, 2003 When I see people giving ****3/4 ratings to a match like this, it makes me wonder how many matches they've seen in their life. I've seen matches which absolutely smoke this one in every possible way. How could I possibly give such a rating to this, when I know there's more than 1/4* difference between them? That's why it's silly to give ****3/4 to this. I wasn't really paying attention for the first third of this match or so. I didn't expect much. I recall some stuff early in the match, like that contrived head scissors/skin the cat/whatever thing Shawn did to HHH. You could see that coming a mile away. ****3/4 matches don't have things like that. I wonder if Keith's just trying to work us with that rating. It sure got people talking.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lil' Bitch 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 (edited) Thank you for bringing light to this, Ray. Edited December 30, 2003 by Rico Costantino Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Thank you for bring light to this, Ray. you're welcome. I wish I had paid more attention to this match now. I was expecting a total shitfest. I mean...it's Raw...and HHH looks like shit. I didn't expect ANYTHING good from this match. It was better than it should have been. Can't give it a rating without watching it again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Deebo Report post Posted December 30, 2003 The thing about this match that did it for me is the fact that for me at least, it took me out of the world where every part match is picked apart and where star ratings are given out based on the match. I'm not knocking anyone who does that, because I do it too. But this match put me back into my teenage mark mode where I was on my feet cheering for HBK to win. That hasn't happened for me since the Benoit-Angle Royal Rumble match, and before that, I can't even remember when. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Besus Report post Posted December 30, 2003 (edited) ***(Not final rating,gona watch it again) Raw MOTY? I liked HBK/Y2J better and Booker T/Goldust vs Y2J/Christian earlier this year was good too. Anyways good match. Edited December 30, 2003 by Besus Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
King Cucaracha 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 HHH in a **** shocker...nice to see the HHHate having to be put on hold for a week. That's why I still watch the WWE. When it goes right, even the injury riden, smark hated, cancer HHH can go out and have a match with the spotlight stealing, over-rated, Bret Hart hating Shawn Michaels and turn people's opinions. Well...more or less. This goes to show, if Trips took some time off, dropped a few pounds of muscle and healed his injuries, he could still be a valuable in-ring player on Raw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BionicRedneck Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Why does anyone listen to Scott Keith? He is a fucking moron. HE doesn't even know why he gives these ratings, so why should we bother to work 'em out. Look at his review, it's 99 % PBP 1% why the match worked. He doesn't have a clue what makes a good match or why he thinks something is good or bad, which is why he just tells you everything that happens in the match instead. On his latest rating, well, didn't he give Brock-Angle Iron Man ****1/2? His reasoning for giving HBK-HHH such a high rating was "Hey, I’ve always said I’m a mark for Shawn in the ring". Good to know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iggymcfly 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Well, I'm a mark for Shawn too, but I don't think that he and HHH have varied enough movesets to even be able to do a ****3/4 match without some kind of gimmick match setup. Sure, they had a great exciting match, but that sense of deja vu came from the fact that they used pretty much every move they had in their repertoires to fill up that 30 minutes. Don't get me wrong. Outside of Jericho, HHH and HBK are probably the only workers on Raw even capable of being in a **** match with no weapons involved. They just don't have the variety of an Angle or a Benoit or even an Edge or Brock Lesnar that can make a straight match fresh time after time. I gave HHH and HBK's SS 2002 match ***** and I'll stand by that, but without anything to jump off or smash people into or smash against people, they sort of fall into a routine of the same things over and over. Sure, they varied it a little bit with the worked shoot injuries, (separated shoulder into abdominal stretch and fake quad tear into figure four), but I think they hit their ceiling with a **** effort. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Goodear Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Well, I'm a mark for Shawn too, but I don't think that he and HHH have varied enough movesets to even be able to do a ****3/4 match without some kind of gimmick match setup. Movesets are a highly overrated way of trying to tell if someone can do a long match and do it well. Ric Flair, Ricky Steamboat and even Bret Hart to an extent didn't have supremely huge sets but knew how to use pacing and the like to move the match in an entertaining direction. Wrestling, in my view, is all about the 'how', 'why', and 'when' other than the 'what'. I found this to be a really well told story where both guys seemingly got over the majority of there issues due to intelligent match booking. Triple H used his rather plodding speed to work himself into a methodical pace which works exceptionally well when you're dealing with a speedster and bumper like Shawn. While on the other side of the coin, Triple H made sure to take more punishment than dish it out so Shawn's spotty selling felt much more appropriate. Triple H also did an excellent job of showing ass again here as he basically spent the whole Austin-Bischoff thing lying on the concrete which continues to put the superkick over as a KO move which it has to be in order to work as a finish. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cuban Linx 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Whether the match was three stars, fours stars or whatever, it sounds like i have a reason to watch at least the last part of Raw when it comes on in Australia, which will be the first time i've been interested in Raw in a long time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChris 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Well, I'm a mark for Shawn too, but I don't think that he and HHH have varied enough movesets to even be able to do a ****3/4 match without some kind of gimmick match setup. They said that about Hogan/Warrior, Savage/Warrior, and the HHH/Rock iron man match, too. Look how they turned out. The very BEST matches will always be the ones that tell a story in the ring, not just ones with "who can pull out the largest number of moves". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Askewniverse Report post Posted December 30, 2003 The very BEST matches will always be the ones that tell a story in the ring, not just ones with "who can pull out the largest number of moves". I agree. I think Mick Foley put it best: "It's not about how many moves you know. It's about how you use the ones that you do know." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iliketurtles 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Dames gave it a respectable **** and I agree...that's more of a realastic rating on this match, though I still need to rewatch it to give a final judgment on the rating. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haVoc 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Well, is there really such a thing as a realistic star rating for a wrestling match? Even wrestlers themselves say their against star ratings because, obviously by this thread, everyone's opinions and out looks on "what should be" are different. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianChris 0 Report post Posted December 30, 2003 Well, is there really such a thing as a realistic star rating for a wrestling match? Even wrestlers themselves say their against star ratings because, obviously by this thread, everyone's opinions and out looks on "what should be" are different. That's true of anything, and yet star ratings are the most widely used form of rating things (movies, TV, books, albums, etc.). It's just meant to give the reader a guide. Anyone who takes star ratings too seriously needs to give their head a shake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
