Borderline Hall of Famers

[treble 0]

Every sport has it's players that are locks for the Hall of Fame once they become eligible (Mark Messier, Roger Clemens, etc.) but I'm always interested in those players who have had good to very good careers and could be 'controversial' picks for the Hall of Fame in their respective sport. I'm going to focus on hockey, since there's less chance of me making myself look foolish.

 

Locks:

-Mark Messier

-Steve Yzerman

-Ron Francis

-Al MacInnis

-Brett Hull

-Ray Bourque

-Joe Sakic

-Patrick Roy

-Dominik Hasek

-Martin Brodeur

-Mike Richter

-Ed Belfour

-Brian Leetch

-Jaromir Jagr

 

I'm sure there's a couple that I've missed (or maybe a few that could be disputed) so feel free to argue those ones.

 

Borderline

-Pavel Bure: For a time, one of the most dominant players in the league. Injuries de-railed him a bit, but he still has over 400 goals and averaged over a point per game for his career.

-Curtis Joseph: Top line goalie, but lack of Vezina award or Stanley Cup hurts. Will have at least 400 career wins, probably 450+ when he's done.

-Peter Forsberg: Definitely the most likely to get in of anyone I list in the borderline category. A little injury prone, but a dominant player when he's healthy. Has 2 Cups plus other individual awards (including Olympic Gold Medal). I'd vote him in.

-Chris Pronger: Former MVP, one of the best d-men in the league when healthy. If he continues to play at this rate, he'll be a lock in no time.

-Rob Blake: Kind of in the same boat as Pronger, but has a Cup to his name (thanks to a deadline trade). Just has to continue playing as he has.

-Doug Gilmour: 2 outstanding years and a consistent career otherwise. A Cup, a Selke trophy, and a runner-up to the Hart. His years in Toronto could work in his favour.

-Sergei Fedorov: Also close to the top of the list. Hart Trophy and 3 Cups to his name. Probably helped a bit by playing for a great team like Detroit, but he was a very important part of their 3 Cup wins.

-Dave Andreychuk: 600+ goals and will end up with 1300+ points. Never a dominant player, but a very important part of the Leafs teams in the early-mid '90s.

-Theo Fleury: Substance abuse problems put a damper on an otherwise stellar career. A Stanley Cup and Olympic Gold Medal to his name.

-Gary Roberts: Point total isn't great, but always a factor. Has a Cup.

-Mats Sundin: Along with Forsberg and Borje Salming (and Markus Naslund, too, probably), one of the best Swedes to ever play in the NHL. Hasn't won any big awards yet, which could hurt him. Winning a Cup, especially if it happens with the Leafs, would help his cause greatly.

-Daniel Alfredsson: Probably a notch below Sundin, Forsberg, and Naslund as far as Swedish players go, but was Rookie of the Year. Has the possibility of being the captain of a great team for years to come, which would definitely help his cause.

-Markus Naslund: Same situation as Alfredsson, as the Canucks look to be a dominant team for the next few years.

-Todd Bertuzzi: If he continues to be one of the dominant power forwards in the NHL, leading the Canucks to a Cup or 2, he's as good as in.

-Owen Nolan: Would need to win something besides the Gold medal before the end of his career, as he has always been a good player, just never on a team that went anywhere. I don't think he's ever been past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

 

That's all I'll touch on for now, but there are a ton more that you could debate all night. Add your own, dispute mine, or whatever.

[treble 0]

I should have put Teemu Selanne and Paul Kariya on the borderline list, as they probably have a better shot at being inducted than some of the players already on the list.

[starvenger 0]

Thoughts:

- The Chuker will make it based on his goal total alone. How can you not put the best front-of-the-crease goalscorer of all time in the hall?

 

- Mike Modano is also a surefire HoFer. Best American player ever? I tend to think so, although I keep hearing things about Zach Parise.

 

- I hate him with a passion, but Chris Chelios will probably make it in as well.

 

- Sundin is a surefire LEAFS hall of famer, but probably not a hockey HoFer yet. He'll need to win the Cup first.

 

- If Bure and Fedorov both make it, I think that it's only fitting that they be beside each other with a picture of Anna Kournikova in the middle.

 

- I'd love to see Trevor Linden in the Hall, but I think that it's rather unlikely.

 

- Of the guys on the list, I'd put Richter as borderline. By goalie standards, he's very good, but not great. But being an American-born goalie may put him in.

 

- Stevie Y, I wish he'd retired after the Wings won the cup. He's still got legs, but I'd have liked to see him go out on top.

 

- Speaking of which, someone tell Moose to retire already.

 

- Personally, I think that they should waive the eligibilty rule for Roy. Not only was he That Damn Good, but he redifined the way goalies play with his Butterfly technique.

[treble 0]

Forgot about Chelios completely, but meant to put Modano on the list (probably under borderline, but he's not that far from a lock, IMO).

 

I put Richter as a lock as I figured he's probably the best American born goalie ever. Add his Stanley Cup, World Cup, and Silver Medal into the equation and he's in, in my book, and more deserving of the honour than CuJo, whom he beat in the World Cup final. The only thing CuJo's really won is the Gold Medal as a back-up. CuJo may have been more dominant over his career, but fact that he's never won anything hurts him.

 

As for Roy, I think after Gretzky the HoF pretty much said that was the last time they would waive the eligibility rule. Can't really blame them as retirement doesn't mean much anymore these days (as we've seen with Hasek coming back after only 1 year and a HoFer 'playing' [when he's not hurt] in Pittsburgh).

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

Swap Andreychuk in for Richter and your "lock" list is set. Although Chelios will and Nick Lidstrom will be locks as well. Brendan Shanahan would be a strong borderline,at least, as would Modano and Nieuwendyk.

 

Most of your borderline guys ,I would actually vote 'no' at this point but likely assuming they stay on their current career paths. Except Fleury,Roberts and Nolan. No way.

 

But I think most of the true contenders have been listed by now.

Edited January 5, 2004 by Slingshot Suplex

[NoCalMike 0]

Art Monk should be in the Football HOF......EOS. When he retired he had the most receptions ever. (Rice, Carter have recently broken the record I think someone else did too). The only thing holding Monk back is that he never had that one career defining game and/or moment. However that shouldn't matter. On a numbers basis Monk should be a sure thing, but assholes like Peter King won't vote for him.....Trust me though, if Lynn Swann is in the fucking HOF......then Monk should have been 1st ballot.

[treble 0]

I put Roberts and Nolan on the list because I remembered reading some article discussing the Leafs and listing them as potential Hall of Famers. I'll admit I'm biased and that they are long shots, but I just wanted to gauge opinion on them.

 

Completely forgot about Shanahan, Nieuwendyk, and Lidstrom, though. I wouldn't be surprised if all 3 got in, as Lidstrom's one of the best defenceman of this era, while Nieuwendyk and Shanahan have 3 Cups apiece plus an Olympic Gold (plus Nieuwendyk and Lidstrom are Conn Smythe winners).

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

I consider Mike Richter at a Doug Gilmour level. Good not great. Won a championship but gained good stats cause they stayed around forever. In his long career, I think he only had 30 wins twice.

 

Richter is probable but I don't think he's a lock.If he wasn't American,I'm not sure he'd even be probable.

[treble 0]

I think Gilmour's helped by the fact that his best years happened in Toronto. It wouldn't have had the same impact had it happened in St. Louis or Calgary, but that's not to diminish the fact that he was a VERY good player during that time period.

 

Richter was hurt by playing for some bad teams towards the end of his career, as well as sharing #1 duties with John Vanbiesbrouck for a little while at the start of his career. He wasn't the clear-cut #1 guy until Beezer left for Florida in the expansion draft.

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

I hope Killer gets in. Don't know for sure if he will but I really liked him so I'd be happy for him. If he had won a Cup with Toronto,he'd be a lock.....heck, Wade Belak would almost be a lock if he scored a Cup clinching goal for Toronto at this point.

 

Dino Ciccarelli didn't make it in yet,did he? He should be if he's not.

[Guest Anglesault]

Mattingly

[starvenger 0]

I hope Killer gets in. Don't know for sure if he will but I really liked him so I'd be happy for him. If he had won a Cup with Toronto,he'd be a lock.....heck, Wade Belak would almost be a lock if he scored a Cup clinching goal for Toronto at this point.

 

Dino Ciccarelli didn't make it in yet,did he? He should be if he's not.

Gilmour is a lose-lose situation, because either way, you'll have You-Know-Who ranting for month about it.

 

And I thought Dino was already in? Second best front-of-the-crease goalscorer ever, and 500+ goals to boot. Not a bad career at all.

[CanadianChris 0]

I hope Killer gets in. Don't know for sure if he will but I really liked him so I'd be happy for him. If he had won a Cup with Toronto,he'd be a lock.....heck, Wade Belak would almost be a lock if he scored a Cup clinching goal for Toronto at this point.

Let me say this...if Dougie doesn't get into a Hall of Fame that includes Pat LaFontaine, there is something seriously wrong.

[Vern Gagne 0]

From a hockey novice it seems like the Hockey Hall of Fame isn't has strict with their selection process.

 

Art Monk should be in. He has the numbers, and he's won 3 Super Bowls.

 

I also want to mention Adrian Dantley for the NBA HOF.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Mattingly

Good call. Mattingly is very much on the fence. I doubt he'll go in, however, and I can't support his candidacy. His career was just too short, and he wasn't good enough for long enough. Will Clark was just as good, and no one's passing his name along as a serious candidate.

[treble 0]

Some others I forgot:

 

-Scott Stevens: He's in, captain of 3 Cup winners, long career, one of the most feared players in league history.

 

-Luc Robitaille: Highest scoring LW ever, he should be a shoo-in.

 

-Phil Housley: Long career, high scoring defenceman. A little suspect defensively, so I'd put him in the borderline category.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Ed Belfour might make it in the Hall, he's borderline

[treble 0]

I don't know, after Roy, Brodeur, and Hasek, he's the best goalie of the era. Plus, he's got as many Cups as Hasek (1) and more Vezinas than Brodeur (Belfour's 2 to Brodeur's 1). 419 wins and 69 shutouts is nothing to sneeze at, either.

[Dogbert 0]

I hope Killer gets in. Don't know for sure if he will but I really liked him so I'd be happy for him. If he had won a Cup with Toronto,he'd be a lock.....heck, Wade Belak would almost be a lock if he scored a Cup clinching goal for Toronto at this point.

Let me say this...if Dougie doesn't get into a Hall of Fame that includes Pat LaFontaine, there is something seriously wrong.

I agree that Gilmour should be in the Hall, but not that Lafontaine shouldn't be. He had excellent numbers his whole career, even though it was plagued by injuries.

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

Some others I forgot:

 

-Scott Stevens: He's in, captain of 3 Cup winners, long career, one of the most feared players in league history.

 

-Luc Robitaille: Highest scoring LW ever, he should be a shoo-in.

 

-Phil Housley: Long career, high scoring defenceman. A little suspect defensively, so I'd put him in the borderline category.

I can't believe I forgot those three.

 

And I agree with you about all three.

 

Stevens and Robitaille=in

 

Housley..borderline

 

I feel like there's someone else I've forgotten........

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

Here's one that most people will dismiss but it's a thought.

 

Chris Osgood

 

Now,at this point,no he wouldn't be a HOFer but I got to thinking while watching the Blues vs Wild replay so I looked up his stats.

 

He's 31 years old,has 291 career wins and 40 shutouts and two Cups (although one as Vernon's backup in 97). He probably has at least another 5 years so he could possibly hit 450 career wins if the Blues remain a good team. If he wins a Cup in St Louis and hits over 400 wins, would he be a lock? And if he doesn't win a Cup there,does that just make him borderline?

[starvenger 0]

I'm not sure that there's anything that Osgood can do to make him a lock. IMO he's always been a good goalie who has been protected by very good-to-great teams in front of him.

[nl5xsk1 0]

From a hockey novice it seems like the Hockey Hall of Fame isn't has strict with their selection process.

Just the opposite, the HHOF limits the number of former players that can be inducted in a given year to 4 and a lot of the time, less than the maximum gets inducted. They do allow refs/linesmen and builders get inducted as well, but I don't think any of us are going to list refs worthy of being inducted into the HHOF.

 

With the number of great players are only a year or two from retirement (Moose, Stevie Y, Ronnie Franchise, Chelios, etc.) and those that most likely will only last a year or two more (Hasek, Hull, Forsberg, etc.) it'll be awfully tough for some of the borderline players to make it in the next half a decade. Hell, even some of TC's locks are a longshot in my eyes (well, only Belfour and Richter, I guess).

 

I'll have to go through the lists when I'm not at work, and give my $.02 (USD) about who's a lock, who's a no-way, and who's borderline.

[treble 0]

Okay, maybe I'll concede that Richter isn't the lock I said he was, but I'm positive that Belfour will end up in the Hall. Except for maybe his last season in Dallas, he's been consistently one of the best goalies in the league every year of his career.

[Guest drdrainoscott]

What do you guys think of Ken Griffey? I don't think he'll make it in unless he has a huge couple of seasons, but there is no way that is going to happen. Other baseballer's to think about...

 

Tom Glavine

John Smoltz

Rafael Palmero

Mike Piazza

 

I think all have a shot, but if Piazza wasn't a catcher, I don't think he would have made it. Palmero deserves it, no matter what some people might argue due to the power inflation of the 90's, and both pitchers have the numbers and recognition to be in there.

 

Also, do you all think that Nomar, ARod and Jeter will all make the Hall? I think they all will, but only ARod deserves it so far.

[Slingshot Suplex 0]

Hey,who let baseball and football in here?

 

Kidding..it just ended up being hockey dominated

 

Another name for the hockey batch......Igor Larionov

[Guest MikeSC]

What do you guys think of Ken Griffey? I don't think he'll make it in unless he has a huge couple of seasons, but there is no way that is going to happen. Other baseballer's to think about...

 

Tom Glavine

John Smoltz

Rafael Palmero

Mike Piazza

 

I think all have a shot, but if Piazza wasn't a catcher, I don't think he would have made it. Palmero deserves it, no matter what some people might argue due to the power inflation of the 90's, and both pitchers have the numbers and recognition to be in there.

 

Also, do you all think that Nomar, ARod and Jeter will all make the Hall? I think they all will, but only ARod deserves it so far.

Glavine's sheer volume of wins in Atlanta probably put him right near the cusp. He didn't dominate in the post-season, though, and that could hurt him. He won a lot for a lot of years and did get his Cy Young --- but he doesn't have the dominant regular season numbers of Maddux to cover up his less-than-stellar post-season stats.

 

I think Smoltz is a lock. He's as money as a big-game pitcher can be --- and if he goes for a few more years, he'll have some obscenely gaudy save stats. In terms of sheer ability, John might be one of the 3 best pitchers in history. His stuff was always nasty and when his head was right, he was nigh untouchable.

 

Piazza? I think he's in good shape. A catcher who can wail the ball isn't that common. He's been hurt by being stuck on mediocre teams. It seems that people who end up on the Mets just lose a TON of the luster they had before they got there.

 

Palmeiro? I'm not sold on him. He's played for damned near forever, but he doesn't come across as anything realy special.

 

Nomar is, easily, the least likely of the three SS's mentioned to make the Hall. ARod, if his career continues as is, is a no-brainer and Jeter has just won too damned much to not make it. A HOF should be dominant in his era and Nomar just isn't. In the AL, he's far below ARod and Jeter in terms of shortstops. Move him to the NL and he might have a chance to really shine.

-=Mike

...Has anybody in football history fallen faster than Ricky Watters? He went from star to nobody in short order.

[Vern Gagne 0]

From a hockey novice it seems like the Hockey Hall of Fame isn't has strict with their selection process.

Just the opposite, the HHOF limits the number of former players that can be inducted in a given year to 4 and a lot of the time, less than the maximum gets inducted. They do allow refs/linesmen and builders get inducted as well, but I don't think any of us are going to list refs worthy of being inducted into the HHOF.

 

With the number of great players are only a year or two from retirement (Moose, Stevie Y, Ronnie Franchise, Chelios, etc.) and those that most likely will only last a year or two more (Hasek, Hull, Forsberg, etc.) it'll be awfully tough for some of the borderline players to make it in the next half a decade. Hell, even some of TC's locks are a longshot in my eyes (well, only Belfour and Richter, I guess).

 

I'll have to go through the lists when I'm not at work, and give my $.02 (USD) about who's a lock, who's a no-way, and who's borderline.

Different question. Who currently retired isn't in the HOF, that people think should be?

[Bored 0]

What do you guys think of Ken Griffey?  I don't think he'll make it in unless he has a huge couple of seasons, but there is no way that is going to happen.  Other baseballer's to think about...

 

Tom Glavine

John Smoltz

Rafael Palmero

Mike Piazza

 

I think all have a shot, but if Piazza wasn't a catcher, I don't think he would have made it.  Palmero deserves it, no matter what some people might argue due to the power inflation of the 90's, and both pitchers have the numbers and recognition to be in there. 

 

Also, do you all think that Nomar, ARod and Jeter will all make the Hall?  I think they all will, but only ARod deserves it so far.

All you mentioned are locks except Smoltz, at the moment. I know everyone is down on Griffey but think about it just a few years ago you would get people to argue that he was on his way to be the best player EVER. His numbers are still excellent no matter how you look at it and he's simple a no brainer.

 

Smoltz needs two more years as a dominant closer I think to lock up his spot in the HOF. His numbers as a starting pitcher aren't quite as good as some might think but a couple of more years as a dominant closer puts him in Eckersley company.

 

What position you play is important and this why Piazza is a lock and his .960 career OPS is pretty damn good no matter what position you play and is just sick as a catcher. As for Palmeiro, ya I would label myself as a sceptic too in the past but when you really look at the numbers (and not just the homeruns) there is no way he's not a HOF.

 

Now here are some real borderline cases at the moment to discuss:

 

Larry Walker

Albert Belle

Bernie Williams

Edgar Martinez

Barry Larkin

Fred McGriff

Craig Biggio

Curt Schilling

John Franco

Mike Mussina

Kevin Brown

Trevor Hoffman

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

What do you guys think of Ken Griffey? I don't think he'll make it in unless he has a huge couple of seasons, but there is no way that is going to happen.

 

Griffey's in. He was one of the best players in baseball for ten years, and not many hall of famers can say that. He only needs 19 home runs for 500 as well.

 

Glavine's sheer volume of wins in Atlanta probably put him right near the cusp. He didn't dominate in the post-season, though, and that could hurt him. He won a lot for a lot of years and did get his Cy Young --- but he doesn't have the dominant regular season numbers of Maddux to cover up his less-than-stellar post-season stats.

 

Glavine's at 251 wins right now. If he can make it to 275, I say put him in.

 

I think Smoltz is a lock. He's as money as a big-game pitcher can be --- and if he goes for a few more years, he'll have some obscenely gaudy save stats. In terms of sheer ability, John might be one of the 3 best pitchers in history. His stuff was always nasty and when his head was right, he was nigh untouchable.

 

163-120 just isn't that impressive for a hall of famer. As for the closer role, you need to be pretty damned good to stand out from the pack. If Gossage can't make the hall, I don't see how Smoltz's relief work can help. Eckersley has more wins than Smoltz, and 200 more saves, so that's not a good comparison.

 

Piazza? I think he's in good shape. A catcher who can wail the ball isn't that common. He's been hurt by being stuck on mediocre teams. It seems that people who end up on the Mets just lose a TON of the luster they had before they got there.

 

In. He's got the 14th highest career slugging percentage of all time, AS A CATCHER. He's the best hitting catcher who ever played.

 

Palmeiro? I'm not sold on him. He's played for damned near forever, but he doesn't come across as anything realy special.

 

Considering he'll likely retire around the 550 home run mark, I can't see leaving him out.