RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 No, then I wouldn't give it any value at all. Just like I would for any poorly booked title. But it's the old WCW belt - fuck subtle changes because as fans, we won't see those changes and it looks exactly the same (cept its molded to HHH's waist) as it did in WCW on TV. I look at it, I think WCW. I think it's safe to say that the majority of fans out there think the same thing. It will take YEARS for that belt to become more associated with RAW than WCW, and by the time it does, they'll have merged the titles anyways. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 No man, by your justification Benoit 'vacacted' the old WCW title for what it stood for at the time (nothing) and basically out of the shitty state of the company No, my "storyline" justification for Benoit leaving WCW and the WCW belt was because he wanted to go to the WWE for a chance at the WWE World Title (and for his friends and family - sacrifices being the key factor in Benoits character and motivation). Those sacrifices should have the right pay off. It should be for the right belt. Not for the HHH Memorial Masturbatory Title. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cbacon 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 Well, given the fact the design of world titles these days only seem to last a couple of years, so the distinction will probably become more evident in the future. It still holds the same value as the WWE title though. Despite the shoddy booking around the title holders and reigns, it is still revered as the highest plateau for a wrestler to reach on the RAW brand. Benoit winning it would *almost* be as important as winning the WWE title ( i say almost since the WWE title has a more prestige lineage). In the eyes of casual fans, marks, smart marks, whoever, Benoit would be seen as the #1 guy on the RAW brand, the supposed flagship program of the number one wrestling company in North America. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 No, Benoit would be holding HHH's belt. The title that was handed to him. The title that -according to you- was created 1 1/2 years ago. A "new" title. The title which has been attached to such epic matches such as HHH vs. Steiner and HHH vs. Nash and HHH vs. Goldberg! The title that Benoit doesn't want. That Benoit has never wanted. The title that has done nothing for anyone who has held it... Other than remind people that HHH really wants to be Ric Flair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USC Wuz Robbed! 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 So if Kane had won that "HHH" title, no one would buy him as the Raw champion? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 Frankly, rick, I think you're getting ahead of yourself. There's no need to deride the quality of that title when Benoit isn't even going to get it anyway. Let's think of this logically. WWE decided they were going to move someone from Smackdown! to Raw to face HHH at Wrestlemania, and they chose Benoit. Why? I mean, nobody thinks a Benoit-HHH feud will light up ratings and buyrates, and it's not exactly the dream interpromotional match they will make it out to be. The logical choice, if you wanted to truly create a new star is John Cena. Benoit has reached a level of overness that he has maintained through main event feuds and midcard feuds...fans respect him, but they don't pay to see him. It's not his fault, he's been booked like a loser and a chump, but it's the way it is. Cena, on the other hand, has momentum. Well, at least his pops do, even if his raps seem to be getting worse weekly. HHH clearly has management convinced that if he wins all the time, his big job to a new young star down the line will be a big deal. Why waste it on Chris Benoit, who probably has a year or two left in him? Do you think the WWE really cares enough about his hard work over the years to actually give him a meaningful title run? Hell no. Benoit was picked to move because HHH can soundly beat him at Wrestlemania without being accused of killing the heat of an up and coming star. Benoit has lost clean so many times, and still retains credibility with fans because of his work, so I'm sure he'll recover from it just fine. Hell, they may even give him the title at Backlash for a small token run until HHH gets back from making a movie. It should be interesting come Royal Rumble time next year. Can they salvage Jericho as a main eventer and put him over Hunter? Or will they pull the trigger on Edge or John Cena? Or will they switch Eddie over to be beaten by HHH? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cbacon 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 A World title should not be revered based on it's 'classic match' status . If that were the case, the WCW Cruiserweight title would have be the most prestigious title in the company in 96/97. I don't like the way the New World Title has been handled since it's inception either, but it is a testament to the most 'dominant' wrestler, as being held by the #1 guy in the company (or in this case , brand). Benoit wants to win the *the big one*. The RAW title is the other big one on the other brand. By winning it, his story book dream of being *a* world champion will have been fulfilled. Distinction of disbelief is an important part of professional wrestling. Being able to seperate oneself from the fickle 'smark' perception of such things helps to view the RAW World Title with a bit more validity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USC Wuz Robbed! 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 I agree.... if Benoit is able to win the Raw title and he is able to run well with it, then maybe the title will stop being viewed as the "HHH" title as Rudo said. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 I've said that I think Cena will win the Rumble so that HHH will bury him at Mania - it doesn't mean I can't discuss and dislike the idea of Benoit winning it. Fans don't pay for anyone nowadays, so what does drawing have to do with it? If anything, just TRYING something new is worth it. "He'll recover from it" is such BULLSHIT. Wrestlers have only so many chances - some have a lot, some have very little. The more times it happens, the less likely it will be that they will recover. At Benoits age and at his physical state, there's not many more chances left. So fuck that. Jericho will never be a serious main eventer again. That died at WM 19. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 A World title should not be revered based on it's 'classic match' status . If that were the case, the WCW Cruiserweight title would have be the most prestigious title in the company in 96/97. There are several elements which "makes" a title, relating it to great matches is one of them. I don't like the way the New World Title has been handled since it's inception either, but it is a testament to the most 'dominant' wrestler, as being held by the #1 guy in the company (or in this case , brand). Who won't even be positioned as such. Not to mention wasn't a #1 guy (or 2, or 3) on the other brand. Benoit wants to win the *the big one*. The RAW title is the other big one on the other brand. By winning it, his story book dream of being *a* world champion will have been fulfilled. Royal Rumble 2003. He wanted Angles belt. Smackdown 01, he wanted Austins belt. Fully Loaded 00, he wanted Rocks belt. All have the same lineage of Lesnars belt. THAT'S the belt he wants. THAT is what he related his "dreams" to. Distinction of disbelief is an important part of the professional wrestling. Being able to seperate oneself from the fickle 'smark' perception of such things helps to view the RAW World Title with a bit more validity. Even if I wasn't on-line I'd still see that title as the WCW title. I was pretty fickle as a "mark", so maybe I'm not the right guy to say that to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 It died a long time before that. You should learn like the rest of us that it's useless to get your hopes up for a company that will never deliver. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 I'm way too fucking optimistic. I "officially" declared Jericho's chances of main eventing effectively again dead at Mania 19 - that's why I reference it. Before that, there was a slight chance; now there is none. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michrome 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 Frankly, I think it got killed even more by what followed. The loss to Goldberg clean, the lack of any meaningful feuds or programs this year since the one with Shawn, and most of all, getting his ass whipped by Steve Austin weekly with no payoff. If there is any justice in this world, Jericho will make Austin tap out to the liontamer at WMXX. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USC Wuz Robbed! 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 But everyone knows Austin is broken down. Now had he done that at No Way Out.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eirejmcmahon 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 HHH has killed everyone on RAW...and Randy Orton is quickly working his way through them all... Time to send new lambs to the slaughter. Says it all really. SURELY they must realise that there's something drastically wrong with their booking when they haven't managed to build a single new babyface in over a year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Your Olympic Hero Report post Posted January 16, 2004 I'll say by May he's feuding with Jericho once again for the IC title. Better than feuding with A-Train or the FBI. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
humongous2002 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 That's the thing RAW has plenty of babyface stars, but the bookers are refusing on pulling the trigger with their pushes, so they could be shot up to stardom.Jericho has just turned babyface and instead of booking him strong he gets to job to Mizark, a fat wrestler that the fans only remeber when he and Mae Young had a hand for a baby.Then we have RVD, fans are dying to see him get the big main event spot since 2001, they still pop for him big time even though he hasn't been in a real feud since he wrestled HHH at Unforgiven 2002(Rob was more of a supporting player to the ShaneO Mac/Kane feud of last year)and last but not least we have Booker T, he's been jobbed out so many times since he first joined the WWF that i'm amazed that the fans still pop for him.They are 3 popular guys, their only sin is being from either WCW or ECW and the fact that they are not over 6'4" and caucasian. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 I'm way too fucking optimistic. I "officially" declared Jericho's chances of main eventing effectively again dead at Mania 19 - that's why I reference it. Before that, there was a slight chance; now there is none. Don't forget Booker T. He got the exact same death proclamation on the exact same show. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jester 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 To me, the problem with switching Benoit to Raw to win the title--and never mind that him winning the title at all is a big assumption--is that it makes him look like he's compromising. Not on the belt, but on opponents. And on the challenge. Heyman says he's not getting his title shot. Benoit tucks his tail between his legs, mumbles "ok," and goes to Raw where they'll graciously allow poor widdle Chris a title shot. It makes Benoit look like a pussy. Benoit should be harassing Heyman and Brock at every turn, making it clear that he's going to make their lives hell until he gets that title. That's what heroic faces do. THEY DON'T GIVE UP. Look at it this way. Would they book Austin this way? Undertaker? No fucking way. Those guys, particularly Austin, have a history of hammering away at GMs until they get what they want. When Benoit can't do the same, he looks third rate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notJames 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 Yep, jester hit the nail right on the head. If Benoit settles for the RAW title, it will mean significantly less than if he had stuck to his guns and fought tooth and nail for one more title shot against Lesnar. Marks and smarks alike would see it as a complete acceptance of failure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EdwardKnoxII 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 EXACTLY Jester you did a good job. Couldn't have said it better myself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 I see where you're coming from, but I'd rather Benoit go to RAW and win the title there, than to see this continue for months and months of Benoit trying to pester Heyman and Brock just to get a title shot. We've seen that so many times, I'm ok with someone just going "screw it, I'm too good for you chumps anyway". Still, as I said, I see your point and agree with it in theory. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
claydude14 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 I'd like to throw my hat into the debate on the Wolrd Championship/WCW Title argument. I believe the day after Suvivor Series 01, which was the end of the InVasion, Vince said that the WCW Title would now be known simply as the World Championship. Then of course at Vengeance, Jericho won the World Championship and WWF Title to become the Undisputed Champion. He carried around both belts, and defended them in the same matches. He lost them both to HHH at Mania. Shortly after Mania, HHH was presented with one belt, called the Undisputed Championship. This belt floated around, from Hogan to Taker to Rock, finally landing around the waste of Brock Lesnar. However, because Brock said he would remain exclusive to Smackdown, and that he was taking the Undisputed Championship with him, that championship automatically became disputed because it wasn't being defended against half of the WWE's roster. Thus, Lesnar's belt merely became a representation of the WWE Championship. So, the next week on RAW, Bischoff presented HHH with the World Heavyweight Championship. This was not only the same belt as the old WCW Title, but lineage-wise, the same championship, as Vince had merely renamed it. The RAW Title is NOT a new title. It's a renamed WCW Title, same belt and everything, kayfabe wise because VINCE himself said so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
notJames 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 I see where you're coming from, but I'd rather Benoit go to RAW and win the title there... That's assuming that he will win the Title. Who's to say that this isn't yet another example of feeding a hot talent to Triple H in order to cement his "legendary status"? All I know is I can feel the disappointment already once I see Benoit appear on RAW. Sure, this reeks of smark pessimism and cynicism, but Vince and Co. haven't exactly engendered much else in recent history. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EdwardKnoxII 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 I'm ok with someone just going "screw it, I'm too good for you chumps anyway". I really can't see Benoit doing that and the fans buying. How do I put it. With as many times as Benoit has gotclose to the title and choked I don't think he'd look good if he did something like that. Unlike say The Rock who as done it all and could say something like that and the fans would eat it up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spaceman Spiff 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 But it's the old WCW belt - fuck subtle changes because as fans, we won't see those changes and it looks exactly the same (cept its molded to HHH's waist) as it did in WCW on TV. I look at it, I think WCW. I think it's safe to say that the majority of fans out there think the same thing. It will take YEARS for that belt to become more associated with RAW than WCW, and by the time it does, they'll have merged the titles anyways. Y'know, I'm not so sure about that. How many people in the current WWE audience really watched WCW? Especially the "common fans"? I'd be willing to bet not many. A lot of the WCW fanbase (the ones who *would* remember/recognize) never transitioned over when Vince bought out WCW. I think most people only see it as a WWE belt, and only a very small fraction see it as a WCW belt. That being said, I'd rather Benoit stay on SD, win the RR, then go on to face Lesnar at WM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 Then don't have it be built up that Benoit did it himself then. Build up something where you show Paul Heyman and Brock Lesnar actually being somewhat afraid of Benoit through their actions, which leads to an actual official "trade" or contract buyout between RAW and Smackdown. Have Bishoff say that he doesn't want Benoit on RAW either, but then have Austin get in the way and say something like "I'm the sheriff and I'm for what's BEST for RAW, and the best thing that could happen to fix the slump this show is in is Chris Benoit". Build it up so that HHH actually acts afraid, doesn't actually say it, but through his actions he shows that he doesn't want Benoit on the show seeing how deep down he feels that Benoit could be a guy to topple him. You can make Benoit seem important, very important, by going to RAW. I'll agree, if it's done he MUST win the title eventually, within just a few weeks or very few months, but it would work. I'd even be ok with HHH defeating Benoit once, with help from others, only to build towards a much bigger and much more important match where there "must be a winner" and no one is allowed to get involved. If you don't like that, then there are a million other ways that any one of us, much less those on creative, could come up with to make Benoit going to RAW a very good thing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cbacon 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 This was not only the same belt as the old WCW Title, but lineage-wise, the same championship, as Vince had merely renamed it. The RAW Title is NOT a new title. It's a renamed WCW Title, same belt and everything, kayfabe wise because VINCE himself said so. From RoyalRumble.com: Bill Goldberg Career Highlights: World Heavyweight Champion; WCW Champion; WCW Tag Team Champion (w/Bret Hart); WCW United States Champion It's a seperate title. The last official WCW champion was Chris Jericho, and that belt is currently merged with the WWE title that Brock Lesnar holds today. The only WCW belt that has a continuing lineage today is the Cruiserweight title. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest TheZsaszHorsemen Report post Posted January 16, 2004 Benoit vs Booker T. Poor match last time they wrestled Benoit can help elevate Booker as a threat while at the same time pushing himself as a take no prisoners fighter. Benoit vs RVD Yeah, that's exactly what Benoit needs... to be hanging around with all the other failures The fans still buy RVD as somewhat credible and Benoit can manage to get himself a little more over by showing that he has what it takes to go toe to toe with RVD and come out on top. Besides RVD will always be over so the fans seeing Benoit win couldn't hurt RVD much and would give Benoit a bit more legitimacy in the eyes of the fans. I despise this mentality. It is delusional. Only in extremely rare cases like Bret/Austin at WM 13 do BOTH people coming out of a match get elevated. It's not going to happen in a regular RAW. Last time I heard this was when John Cena was feuding with Eddie Guerrero, culminating in the parking lot brawl. This board was constantly blabbering on about how both would end up elevated due to this feud, no matter who won or lost. Well, let's see what ACTUALLY happened, shall we? Cena went on to a losing feud with Kurt Angle, and Eddie went on to a losing feud with the Big Show. Both competitors coming out of one match elevated doesn't happen 99.9999% of the time. Besides, those proposed matches will likely be face/face. And Booker and Rob are absolutely NEUTERED. Yes, they still get pops but they have almost NO credibility. Unless Benoit turns heel which would negate his push in the first place. (And I join LOTC in the "fuck WWE" movement) One fairly recent example of both guys coming out looking great was the Kurt/Cena feud. Kurt got the victory and Cena's face turn was set in stone when he outpopped Angle at the match itself. It's okay if you forgot, most people can't even see him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
USC Wuz Robbed! 0 Report post Posted January 16, 2004 I SAW HIM! Last night shoving soap in Heyman's mouth! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
